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Group Hidden Elements after using show all

Aug 6, 2012 10:18 AM

In Illustrator to build files with clean grouping, you can:

  1. hide various elements
  2. show all hidden elements
  3. group them

 

In InDesign after you show all hidden elements, the items are not selected.

 

Illustrator and InDesign should have a simialr interface, and can see no harm, and only a huge benefit to revising how InDesign works.

 

Posted this on the InDesgin forums, and nobody had a solution. As unbelievable as this sounds, appears this has been overlooked by the Adobe beta and development team.

 

 

 

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1044095?tstart=30

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 6, 2012 10:21 AM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    As unbelievable as it seems, this is the first time I've ever seen a request like this, which makes me think it isn't somthing a lot of users have a need for.

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 12:15 PM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    You missed the point here.

     

    YOU find this a useful request, and can't believe the development and beta teams missed it. In fact, new features are basically driven by user request, with time and money allocated to those features that would help the largest numbers of users. This is usually diven by both the quantity of requests, and the presnetation of a good busiiness case why such a feature would be of benefit. I'm not saying what you propose has no value, just that in ten years you are the only user who has brought it up, and that leads me to suspect that it would have little support in the broader user community at large, especially if it meant some other features, like improvements to footnotes and indexing that are requested here hundreds of times a year, were to be put off because of it.

     

    All of us have a tendency to see things from our own vantage point or frame of reference, and we tend to forget that frame of reference may be entirely unique to us. I assure you that the beta testers include users from many different types of users, including those that deal with large quantities of very complex documents and catalogs, and the ID engineering team is responsive to suggestions from these people far more than you would expect.  It was your choice of saying that the lack of this feature was essentially unbelievable that set me off.

     

    Frankly, I don't see a lot of difference between selecting a multitude of objects to hide them and selecting them to group, but if you can make a good case for it, please do. the official request form is at  Adobe - Feature Request/Bug Report Form

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 2:09 PM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    Mike,

     

    I read and answer dozens of posts a day as amoderator of these forums. I can't keep track of the details of every post that is made. And even if I did remember that you've posted that you know where the wish form is located, frankly, I don't care. These are public forums that are viewed by other people, many of whom don't know that link.

     

    This particular forum is not a line to make a request, though it is commonly mistaken for that. The ONLY place that is monitored by Adobe employees for feature requests is the online for in the link. The purpose of this forum is to discuss the merits of a proposal.

     

    So far you haven't shown me anything that establishes this as paricularly useful other than possibly the consitency argument, but I suspect that at least half of all ID users never open Illustrator or know it well enough to use your technique.

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 4:57 PM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    I'm saying I have no reason to want them selected (I often hide many things that should not be grouped together, or even selected when shown again), and I've never heard of anyone but you who does, so this doesn't appear to me to be the fundamentally obvious missing feature you seem to think it is. I'll repeat what I asked earlier: How is this fundamentally easier or better than simply grouping objects before you hide them? To hide them you have to identify them, so there's no big problem selecting them at the same time.

     

    For those of us who are unfamiliar with how this works in Illustrator, would you mind providing some step by step instructions? I'm not seeing any way to select hidden objects in Illustrator at all, but I'm among those ID users who are not Illy power users.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 6, 2012 5:13 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Finally found it in the Help file. Object > Show all... and indeed it does select them. I personally find this somewhat frightening, but if you like it, great. I suppose it might be useful for quickly selecting and deleting objects that no longer belong in a drawing, but as a method for selecting things to group I think it leaves too much to chance (and gains nothing for speed).

     
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    Aug 7, 2012 4:38 AM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    Do you select with the mouse and use a shorcut to hide, or use the layers panel? In the layers panel I can select a collection of objects that cannot be easily marqueed as fast as I can hide them, probably faster than I can click on them and then hide.

     

    Evidently you use this as a proofing techinique, and hiding objects can certainly be valid for that. I'm still not clear why there is value in having the objects unhidden and then immediately grouped? Are you saying something has changed about them that they should now be grouped when they should not have been previously? Users I know are in the habit of grouping as they work when it makes structural sense to do so, so there is no reason to need to group again.

     

    If this were to be added as a feature, I wouldn't want to see it as a default, but perahps a preference item.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 7, 2012 5:13 AM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    No, I do grasp this. And I believe you find it useful, and it may well be in a power-user Illustrator scenario.

     

    I've been using InDesign since it was realeased, and switched from Quark to ID to make my living at version 2.0. I've been involved with the development team, and I am considered to be an expert in ID, and I can tell you that in all of the time I've worked with ID, I've never missed this feature, and I've never seen anyone, including any Illustrator power user, other than yourself, suggest that it would help them.

     

    Your other thread in the ID general discussions has received no comments at all after four days, a rarity on the ID forum, and I seem to be the only person other than you with anything more than passing interest in this thread. There are currently 147 views, some of which are you and I, but msot of those are probably unique visits. Does it say anything to you that none of those people has said "gee, I think that's a good idea, too, and I wish it was an InDesign feature"?

     

    Go ahead and submit the request. You never know. My experience debating the merits of propsed new features tells me that you'll need more than you've presented to get it implemented, though.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 7, 2012 6:55 AM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    I hide things becasue I DON'T want them accidentally selected, or because I just don't want to see them. I have no reason to want to have them suddenly selected every time they are shown again so I have to wast effort to deselect.

     

    I think there are some fundamental differences between the kinds of things that typically are done in Illustrator, where you work with myriad small objects that get in each other's way to make a larger illustration, and in ID where you mostly are dealing with aranging text and linked graphical elements (somtimes from Illustrator) on a page.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 10, 2012 1:52 AM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    @Mike – I rarely missed that feature the last years, but that's because I am using Illustrator not that often. If I think about it more deeply, I could imagine that such a feature would be valuable for InDesign, too…

     

    What would help you is a script, that can do what you want. Just written one and tested. But before posting code, let's discuss the functionality a bit more:

     

    What is possible:

     

    1. A script that addresses all hidden page items (provided they are not locked) on the current spread, pasteboard included, unhide them, group them and selecting the group.

     

    2. A script that addresses all hidden page items (provided they are not locked) on the current spread, pasteboard included, deselect all currently selected page items, unhide the hidden ones and select them.
    That's all. No grouping…

     

    I find the second approach more valuable, because  you have the choice what you can do with the selection: delete it, group it, move it around on the spread, move it to another layer etc.pp.

     

    Also: how about locked page items that are hidden?
    Would it be good to change the document preferences (if needed) so that you could select locked obejects?
    How about a message in case the script detects locked and hidden page items that let you choose:

     

    [ ] include locked and hidden page items

     

     

    My script is in development, so I want to discuss the above points, before proceeding.
    It's written in JavaScript (ExtendScript) so that it can be used on Mac OS or Windows OS.

    And: you could assign a keyboard shortcut to the script…

     

    Uwe

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 11, 2012 8:47 AM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    anything else I am missing?

     

    @Mike – unfortunately, yes!

     

    You can change the preferences for locked objects, so that you can select them.

    Therefore it's possible to generate single objects that are locked AND hidden.

     

    And a script should deal with that case. Maybe not now, but in the future you are changing your habbits and working with different preferences and objects that are locked and hidden ;-)

     

    Ok. I will expand the script in the next days so that it could detect hidden and locked objects, and if so, and only then, will ask the user, if thiese objects should be made visible and selected too…

     

    That brings me to my final question: what version of InDesign do you use on what OS platform?

     

    Uwe

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 11, 2012 12:01 PM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    Prior to the improved layers panel in CS5 Locked objects could always be selected. With the changed panel came a behavior change to not being able to selct locked objects (as in Illustrator), but during testing I raised the issue that this broke many tempaltes and workflows where a placeholder frame would be locked for position. If you can't select it you can't place content into it or edit the content, so it was made a preference item.

     
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