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Word Import to InDesign CS5

Sep 12, 2011 6:41 AM

I am posting a message asking for help with Word Import.

 

Background:

 

I am a single person, not an organization, and I want to edit files in Word (2010) and then import into InDesign (currently have CS5, willing to upgrade to CS5.5 if it will solve my problem).

 

The reason I want to use Word is that I am doing academic documents, and need to use the program EndNote to enter references, in the standard medical style, into my documents. EndNote has an addin for Word that makes this seamless as one is writing. EndNote will not work with InDesign so it's necessary to use Word and then import.

 

The standard medical format is to have the references at the end, in order of citation. And the reference citations or calls are superscripted numbers in the text at the end of a sentence or phrase.

 

I have a fair bit of experience with this process. I started editing text files in XyWrite II+/Note Bene and importing into Ventura Publisher back in the DOS days, before Windows was available.

 

I have been using Word Import with InDesign since version 2.0 (and it's never quite worked right).

 

I have a fair bit of expertise with Word Styles, having used them since Word first allowed styles.

 

I am happy to set up my Word files in either .doc or .dox format, whichever works better.

 

I am intimately familiar with the mapping of Word styles to InDesign styles, having been trying to get this to work since InDesign 2.0.

 

I am willing to configure my Word styles however necessary to get them to import into InDesign, and to embed them in normal.dotm, and to use them religously without other styles.

 

I have spent hours browsing these forums, and the thread that seemed to offer the most hope is this one: Is clean Word import actually possible?

http://forums.adobe.com/message/3093709#3093709

 

I have spent 24 hours of time on this issue with Word 2010 and InDesign CS5 over the past few weeks and am getting very frustrated. I am going to post my experience here and see if I can get the problem selved, and if not, will call tech support as a last-ditch effort.

 

Details:

 

I want to have the following styles mapped in Word and InDesign.

 

A standard paragraph style.(e.g., Body Text)

 

A style for the first paragraph after a header (e.g., FirstPara), which is based on body text but has a 2-line drop cap.

 

A character style for the first few letters of FirstPara to make them smallcaps. (I don't want to use a nested style, as _I_ want to choose how many letters are going to be smallcaps, rather than a predefined number.)

 

A style for a blockquote, based on body text (e.g., BlockQuote)

 

A style for bullets, based on body text. (e.g., Bullet)

 

A style for references, based on body text, but much smaller (e.g., BackMatter)

 

I want these styles to be visible in Word, though not necessarily looking like the results in InDesign. For example, I set FirstPara in Word to be in dull red, just so it's quite visible which paragraphs have this style, as Word can't do drop caps as part of a style.

 

My text will have occasional italics, occasional bold, and fairly  frequent superscripted numbers placed automatically by EndNote. The references at the end will be inserted automatically by EndNote, but it's easy enough to format with a Word style.

 

And that's it. Nothing very fancy.

 

Problem:

 

If I save my text as a .doc file (Word 2003 and earlier), and import it, virtually all the Word style attributes appear in InDesign as overrides. None of my text looks like I formatted in InDesign at all.

 

If I save my text as a .docs file (Word 2007-2010), the Word style attributes do not come over as much, but I have two other problems. First, my 2-line drop caps actually look like three-line drop caps, and loom above the line, because the 12-point text from the Word style comes through as an override. Second, after every superscripted number (and there are a lot of them) the text does _not_ go back to normal, but stays superscripted.

 

Attempted Solutions:

 

Based on advice found in this forum, I have tried a number of potential fixes.

 

1. Instead of Word's bultin italics and bold, use Word character styles for these. (I even redefined my keyboard in Word to format with these character styles instead of standard bold and italic. Even though it didn't work, I like the idea of having character styles for these in Word and may keep this.)

 

Then, once you've imported your text, you can select all text (a quintuple-click will work) and clear all overrides. But since your bold and italic in the imported file are really character styles, they will _not_ be cleared. That part works like a charm.

 

However, the superscripted numbers automatically inserted by EndNote are formatted as superscript and I cannot persuade EndNote to use a style instead. And, I doubt I would be able to find all of the superscripted numbers and reformat them using a character style without (a) a lot of effort, and (b) likely missing quite a few.

 

So this won't work for me, but it may work for others. Seems that using the older .doc file works best with this method, at least for me.

 

2. It has been suggested in this forum that no styles to be mapped from Word to Indesign should be based on the bultin Word "Normal" Style. So I made up a new set of Word Styles, replacing my Body Text with a new Body style based on nothing, and based all my variants on Body rather than Body text.

 

Made no difference.

 

3. I observed that the Word bultin styles Body Text, Heading 1, Heading 2, Heading 3, and Heading 4, all are both character AND paragraph styles. This is _not_ like InDesign's nested styles, however. In Word, these styles may be applied to a whole paragraph or just a length of text, being interpreted as paragraph or character style appropriately. I don't see the point, but thought it might be a source of the problems. I'd already eschewed Body Text in favor of my own Body style, which was _only_ a paragraph style. So I then replaced Heading 1 with a new H1, which was not based on anything, and then new H2, 3 and 4 styles, all based on H1.

 

Made no difference.

 

4. I thought it might have something to do with the text file I was using. So I copied all the text, and pasted into brand-spanking-new Word files. Saved as both .doc and .docx format. Tried Placing both.

 

Made no difference.

 

Bottom Line:

 

For me, I think the best option is to save my files as .docx and import that way. I can then manually select each dropcap and clear overrides. I can then fix the extended superscript problem manually. This seems to require the least amount of manual labor.

 

Despite years of trying, I have yet to find a way to make InDesign's Word Import work they way it's suppoed to. There's always something that doesn't work right. But with Word 2010 and InDesign CS5, it seems a bit worse than usual.

 

Sorry for the long post, but I though others might find this informative if not actually helpful.

 

Any insight on this perennial problem welcomed.

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 12, 2011 7:20 AM   in reply to Keith Conover

    keithconover wrote:

     

    I am posting a message asking for help with Word Import.

     

    Background:

     

    I am a single person, not an organization, and I want to edit files in Word (2010) and then import into InDesign (currently have CS5, willing to upgrade to CS5.5 if it will solve my problem).

     

    The reason I want to use Word is that I am doing academic documents, and need to use the program EndNote to enter references, in the standard medical style, into my documents. EndNote has an addin for Word that makes this seamless as one is writing. EndNote will not work with InDesign so it's necessary to use Word and then import.

     

    The standard medical format is to have the references at the end, in order of citation. And the reference citations or calls are superscripted numbers in the text at the end of a sentence or phrase.

     

    I have a fair bit of experience with this process. I started editing text files in XyWrite II+/Note Bene and importing into Ventura Publisher back in the DOS days, before Windows was available.

     

    I have been using Word Import with InDesign since version 2.0 (and it's never quite worked right).

     

    I have a fair bit of expertise with Word Styles, having used them since Word first allowed styles.

     

    I am happy to set up my Word files in either .doc or .dox format, whichever works better.

     

    I am intimately familiar with the mapping of Word styles to InDesign styles, having been trying to get this to work since InDesign 2.0.

     

    I am willing to configure my Word styles however necessary to get them to import into InDesign, and to embed them in normal.dotm, and to use them religously without other styles.

     

    I have spent hours browsing these forums, and the thread that seemed to offer the most hope is this one: Is clean Word import actually possible?

    http://forums.adobe.com/message/3093709#3093709

     

    I have spent 24 hours of time on this issue with Word 2010 and InDesign CS5 over the past few weeks and am getting very frustrated. I am going to post my experience here and see if I can get the problem selved, and if not, will call tech support as a last-ditch effort.

     

    Details:

     

    I want to have the following styles mapped in Word and InDesign.

     

    A standard paragraph style.(e.g., Body Text)

     

    A style for the first paragraph after a header (e.g., FirstPara), which is based on body text but has a 2-line drop cap.

     

    A character style for the first few letters of FirstPara to make them smallcaps. (I don't want to use a nested style, as _I_ want to choose how many letters are going to be smallcaps, rather than a predefined number.)

     

    A style for a blockquote, based on body text (e.g., BlockQuote)

     

    A style for bullets, based on body text. (e.g., Bullet)

     

    A style for references, based on body text, but much smaller (e.g., BackMatter)

     

    I want these styles to be visible in Word, though not necessarily looking like the results in InDesign. For example, I set FirstPara in Word to be in dull red, just so it's quite visible which paragraphs have this style, as Word can't do drop caps as part of a style.

     

    My text will have occasional italics, occasional bold, and fairly  frequent superscripted numbers placed automatically by EndNote. The references at the end will be inserted automatically by EndNote, but it's easy enough to format with a Word style.

     

    And that's it. Nothing very fancy.

     

    Problem:

     

    If I save my text as a .doc file (Word 2003 and earlier), and import it, virtually all the Word style attributes appear in InDesign as overrides. None of my text looks like I formatted in InDesign at all.

     

    If I save my text as a .docs file (Word 2007-2010), the Word style attributes do not come over as much, but I have two other problems. First, my 2-line drop caps actually look like three-line drop caps, and loom above the line, because the 12-point text from the Word style comes through as an override. Second, after every superscripted number (and there are a lot of them) the text does _not_ go back to normal, but stays superscripted.

     

    Attempted Solutions:

     

    Based on advice found in this forum, I have tried a number of potential fixes.

     

    1. Instead of Word's bultin italics and bold, use Word character styles for these. (I even redefined my keyboard in Word to format with these character styles instead of standard bold and italic. Even though it didn't work, I like the idea of having character styles for these in Word and may keep this.)

     

    Then, once you've imported your text, you can select all text (a quintuple-click will work) and clear all overrides. But since your bold and italic in the imported file are really character styles, they will _not_ be cleared. That part works like a charm.

     

    However, the superscripted numbers automatically inserted by EndNote are formatted as superscript and I cannot persuade EndNote to use a style instead. And, I doubt I would be able to find all of the superscripted numbers and reformat them using a character style without (a) a lot of effort, and (b) likely missing quite a few.

     

    So this won't work for me, but it may work for others. Seems that using the older .doc file works best with this method, at least for me.

     

    2. It has been suggested in this forum that no styles to be mapped from Word to Indesign should be based on the bultin Word "Normal" Style. So I made up a new set of Word Styles, replacing my Body Text with a new Body style based on nothing, and based all my variants on Body rather than Body text.

     

    Made no difference.

     

    3. I observed that the Word bultin styles Body Text, Heading 1, Heading 2, Heading 3, and Heading 4, all are both character AND paragraph styles. This is _not_ like InDesign's nested styles, however. In Word, these styles may be applied to a whole paragraph or just a length of text, being interpreted as paragraph or character style appropriately. I don't see the point, but thought it might be a source of the problems. I'd already eschewed Body Text in favor of my own Body style, which was _only_ a paragraph style. So I then replaced Heading 1 with a new H1, which was not based on anything, and then new H2, 3 and 4 styles, all based on H1.

     

    Made no difference.

     

    4. I thought it might have something to do with the text file I was using. So I copied all the text, and pasted into brand-spanking-new Word files. Saved as both .doc and .docx format. Tried Placing both.

     

    Made no difference.

     

    Bottom Line:

     

    For me, I think the best option is to save my files as .docx and import that way. I can then manually select each dropcap and clear overrides. I can then fix the extended superscript problem manually. This seems to require the least amount of manual labor.

     

    Despite years of trying, I have yet to find a way to make InDesign's Word Import work they way it's suppoed to. There's always something that doesn't work right. But with Word 2010 and InDesign CS5, it seems a bit worse than usual.

     

    Sorry for the long post, but I though others might find this informative if not actually helpful.

     

    Any insight on this perennial problem welcomed.

     

    Hi, Keith:

     

    You've certainly put in the effort to make this work.

     

    It's a little hard for me to follow your description, partly because I've not used Word in ages, and never used EndNote, so I don't have direct experience with an original Word file like yours with EndNote stuff, and its various outputs and results in InDesign.

     

    However, if you search Google for "InDesign endnote cross reference" without quotes, you'll find this link: http://blogs.adobe.com/indesigndocs/2009/03/endnotes_in_indesign_cs4.h tml

     

    It cites a post I made about using InDesign cross-references for endnotes, and should give you some ideas about working with the converted file. If I understand your description, the endnotes are collected correctly at the end of the file. It's not clear if you're using a single file, or a book of collected individual files, so I'm not sure if you're collecting endnotes at the end of each "chapter" file, in a single location at the end of all the chapter files, or at the end of a single book-length file. If it's a collection of chapter files, you may find some problems with cross-file cross-references that some users have reported; if all your content is in a single file, there's no issue.

     

    I'm just speculating, but I think if you can search and find the EndNote reference numbers in Word, you could mark them with a unique character or a few characters not used elsewhere, and in the InDesign file, search for that unique marker, and at the found location, manually create a cross-reference to the appropriate endnote.

     

    Search Google for terms like "InDesign cross-reference" and similar terms without quotes for more detail.

     

    HTH

     

    Regards,

     

    Peter

    _______________________

    Peter Gold

    KnowHow ProServices

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 12, 2011 7:27 AM   in reply to Keith Conover
    The reason I want to use Word is that I am doing academic documents, and need to use the program EndNote to enter references

    What is the reason you need to import into Indesign, and for the matter, use Indesign at all for this kind of project?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 12, 2011 11:06 AM   in reply to Keith Conover

    keithconover wrote:

     

    Hello, Peter, and thank you for your post.

     

    I believe that some will find your post helpful, but unfortunately I don't think it will help with my issue.

     

    I guess I should have been more clear about how EndNote works. It actually takes care of all the cross-referencing itself, so what it inserts is actually a superscripted number, not an actually Word cross-reference. Hidden in the number is a label that references to the bibiliographic database in the EndNote program itself. The list of references at the end are endnotes but not "real" cross-referenced type endnotes - as far as Word is concerned, it's just some text.

     

    Thanks again.

    Hi, Keith:

     

    Although you've enlightened me about EndNote, I think perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my reply.

     

    I was suggesting to eliminate EndNote from the process by marking the endnote references in the Word file, with a text item that's not used for any other purpose in the document. Then, in the imported document in InDesign, find each instance of the unique text item and create an InDesign cross-reference to the endnotes that have also been imported.

     

    So, your manual work would consist of marking in Word, and finding and inserting cross-references in InDesign. Again, see the link I posted earlier, and use the suggested Google searches for details; I almost always do the searches I suggest to see what's dredged up. If you look on the first results page of the endnotes search, you'll find a few links that seem to address your problems.

     

    HTH

     

    Regards,

     

    Peter

    _______________________

    Peter Gold

    KnowHow ProServices

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 12, 2011 3:25 PM   in reply to Keith Conover

    I do not know if it is true, but it has been reported that Endnote adds custom fields to MS Word files that can cause major problems (lost footnotes) for ID's footnoting capabilities.  Criticism of ID's footnoting capabilities are all too common.  Maybe it would help if there were a mechanism for "flattening" Endnotes additions to a MS Word file -- not so convenient for scholars, perhaps, but those who work in pre-press have the idea that there is much to be said for "finalizing" a file before submitting it for publication.

     

    David

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 12, 2011 3:40 PM   in reply to Keith Conover

    Have you tried changing the
    Indesign:Preferences:Clipboard Handling:

    When Pasting Text and Tables from Other Applications Paste: "All Information (Index Markers, Swatches, Styles, etc.)" button to on?

    I know pasting<placing, but I've noticed with that prefrence checked that it captures more of the info.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 13, 2011 11:48 AM   in reply to Keith Conover

    Virginia Systems has an endnote plugin that might work for you. It comes up in the Google searches I suggested earlier, but apparently you didn't catch it. http://www.virginiasystems.com/products_d.html

     

    There's a trial.

     

    HTH

     

    Regards,

     

    Peter

    _______________________

    Peter Gold

    KnowHow ProServices

     
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  • John Hawkinson
    5,572 posts
    Jun 25, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 13, 2012 2:03 AM   in reply to Keith Conover

    I'm afraid your description lost me.

    Have you tried export to RTF from Word and placing that in InDesign.

    One advantage of RTF is you can look at the raw file by hand and see whether InDesign is interpertting it correctly.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 15, 2012 12:46 PM   in reply to Keith Conover

    http://forums.adobe.com/thread/974155?tstart=90

     

    I don't have time right now to read your thread, but it sounds similar to the problem I described a few days ago (and apparently last year as well!)

    See my last post for my latest insights into this irritating problem.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 16, 2012 1:31 AM   in reply to Keith Conover

    Hello Keith

     

    I have been frustrated with Word imports but found that the preptext script has been invaluable in preserving the format I want and getting rid of the rest. The process isn't wholly automatic as there's still some clearing of overrides but it's saved me a huge amount of trouble.See http://indesignsecrets.com/free-scripts-help-fix-word-formatting.php.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 26, 2012 5:33 AM   in reply to Keith Conover

    Keith,

    Our word docs don't have character styles so I can't speak to that, but I have found that the best way to avoid the style overrides is to have the Word styles match as closely as possible the InDesign styles and make sure the Word styles are based on NONE. Import ignores the font settings under these conditions so I can use Times in the Word styles (which the editors prefer) and it maps correctly to the font used in the ID style.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 16, 2012 9:38 AM   in reply to Keith Conover

    Keith,

     

    I understand the associated pain when importing Endnote citations into ID. I'm writing my PhD and having a similar problem. Out of interest what version of Endnote are you using and which output style? I have found the most effective way of importing Word docs with Endnote citations is to use the "Convert to Plain Text" command on the Endnote tab (windows) or Tools->Endnote X5 menu (Mac) prior to importation into ID. Then using the GREP Find and Replace you can change all of the 'overrides' in the reference list to be character styles quickly and easily. I have found that keeping word-related formatting to a minimum has helped tremendously as well.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 16, 2012 10:00 AM   in reply to HSGROW_HK

    Hello Keith,

     

    I have not fully ready this thread. Is the jist of this that style overrides are creeping in on placing a Word document? If the overrides are cleared is the document formatted correctly?

     

    P.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 6, 2012 3:44 PM   in reply to allisonblake

    I am excited to learn that I am not the only one with this problem, and setting the WORD styles to based on nothing looks promising, but it did not solve my problem with the language in Word and the dictionary in InDesign. Formerly, when I set the language in Word, it mapped to the correct dictionary in Word. Now it seems erratic. Sometimes it maps Spanish to Spanish, sometimes Spanish to English, sometimes it even sets it to Arabic. Is it impossible now to set the language in Word and have it work in InDesign. I want to run the spell check first in Word, then in InDesign, and in order to do this, I have to tag most of the text with the dictionary again in InDesign, even though I have set text styles with the proper dictionary. It is complicated by the fact that whent the text is in Spanish, it will be filled with brief quotes in another language, so I need overrides of the language to be preserved as well.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 7, 2012 8:10 AM   in reply to Susan567

    Here is avery old article, might have some helpful bits in it.

     

    http://www.indesignusergroup.com/chapters/chicago/notes/2004/03_25/03_ 25_notes.php

     

    P.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 7, 2012 8:30 AM   in reply to Pickory

    Thank you very much. That, along with this thread, is certainly giving me food for thought. This has been bothering me for a long time, and lately I've begun to think I should just give up assigning styles in Word and do it all in ID. I'll study up on these things and see what it does for me.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 7, 2012 8:40 AM   in reply to Susan567

    I've found that sometimes there is no rhyme or reason why Word imports incorrectly into ID. I've had glyphs (greek characters mostly) drop out for no reason, subscripts randomly have symbol font applied though this setting was not assigned in the Word doc, etc. Basing each Word style on none gets me 90% of the way there and I just fix the rest of the stuff in ID with a series of search/replace that I've scripted. I  spent WAY too much time trying to figure out how to get every Word document to behave.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 7, 2012 8:57 AM   in reply to allisonblake

    Thanks, Allison. That's been the conclusion I've been coming to. I will try adjusting the Word styles, something I haven't considered before because I thought if they were named properly, it SHOULD work. If that doesn't produce better results, I think I have spent way too much time on this myself. SInce I do the work in both Word and ID, I don't have the problem of editors objecting to changes. The only problem of that sort is getting the files submitted by the authors to conform.

     

    Again, it is good to know others are struggling with the same problem. The book I am working on right now is composed in Spanish with quotes in Spanish, English, French, and Galician. There is a Galician language designation in Word, but no Galician dictionary in ID, to my surprise. I'm just now wondering if I could have found one if I had used Hunspell. I am just now learning what the advantages of the Hunspell dictionaries might be. Up to now I've thought, if it ain't broke don't fix it, and stuck with the proximxity dictionaries. But it appears I can specify for each language in ID which dictionary I want to use. [Snd by the way, since Word didn't flag anything in the Galician as misspelled, I am wondering if the language designation is really attached to a dictionary in Word, anyway.]

     
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    Aug 7, 2012 9:38 AM   in reply to Susan567
     
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