Skip navigation
Autumnmantis
Currently Being Moderated

Luminance Formulae and Red Distortion

Aug 14, 2012 8:28 PM

Tags: #conversion #greyscale #formula #luminance #lightness #709 #coefficients

I'm working on a chart that displays and names a couple hundred color swatches.  I have all of their color data in a table, and I want to arrange them by hue and lightness, so I applied the Rec.709 coefficients to my data.  This arranges my colors into a natural gradient--except for the reds, which have some glaring missplacement.  Any idea why .709 coefficients do this, or what coefficients I should use instead?

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 14, 2012 10:55 PM   in reply to Autumnmantis

    Your observation is correct, like here in chapter 7:

     

    http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/gray10012001.pdf

     

    It's the Helmholtz-Kohlrausch effect/phenomenon.

     

    The effect is taken into account in Mark Fairchild's

    Color Appearance Models.

    http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&as_q=Fairchild&as_epq=Color+appearan ce&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_ occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=

     

    Using Lab (CIELab) or even Munsell wouldn't improve the

    situation, in my opinion. For me, saturated red/orange

    appears brighter than gray or blue in planes of constant

    Lightness (Lab) or Value (Munsell).

    http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/cielab03022003.pdf

    http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/munsell15052009.pdf

     

    Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 15, 2012 8:52 PM   in reply to Autumnmantis

    Thanks to Prof Hoffman as usual. I am glad he is again contributing to the forum.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 16, 2012 4:50 AM   in reply to Autumnmantis

    Autumnmantis and Lundberg,

     

    thanks for the feedback. In my opinion there are two mistakes:

    a) wrong exponent (G instead of 1/G)

    b) wrong concept - the ordering sequence does not depend on

    gamma encoding.

     

    This formula delivers the CIE(1931) luminance Y in linear coordinates,

    specifically for Rec-709 primaries and D65 white:

     

    r=0.2126

    g=0.7152

    b=0.0722

    Y = rR + gG + bB

     

    Gamma encoded values are characterized by an apostroph, but we

    have to apply an inverse exponent k=1/G = 1/2.2, because the monitor

    applies a transform with exponent G to data (rule of thumb).

     

    R'=R^k

    G'=G^k

    B'=B^k

     

    Y' = rR' + gG' + bB'

     

    Now let's assume, we have sorted some colors by their luminances:

    Y1<Y2<Y3...

    How would the gamma encoded numbers be sorted?

    Probably exactly  in the same order (I thought I had proved this

    mathematically, but who knows):  

    Y1'<Y2'<Y3'

     

    Therefore no gamma encoding can cure the Helmholtz-Kohlrausch-

    "problem" - sorting by perceived lightness (by brightness).

     

    There are other problems - the perception  of a color depends

    much on the environment. 

     

    Autumnmantis, what exactly is your application?

     

    Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 16, 2012 1:27 PM   in reply to Autumnmantis

    Things you might want to read:

     

    http://www.poynton.com/notes/colour_and_gamma/GammaFAQ.html

     

    http://www.poynton.com/notes/colour_and_gamma/ColorFAQ.html  Particularly section 9.

     

    You have gamma encoded RGB values, you need to convert those to linear values, then apply the weights to calculate Y.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2012 4:07 AM   in reply to Autumnmantis

    Autumnmantis,

     

    you're right, my assumption that sorting by linear luminance Y

    or - alternatively - gamma encoded luminance Y' should deliver

    the same sequence, is probably wrong. Thanks for insisting.

    Anyway, there is - in the sense of CIE(1931) colorimetry - only one

    correct approach, here for rec.709 and D65:

    Convert the gamma encoded file data R', G', B' into data R,G,B

    in the linear space X,Y,Z and calculate Y, the true CIE luminance:

    Y = r R'^e + g G'^e + b B'^e  with exponent e=gamma=2.2.

     

    The Helmholtz-Kohlrausch effect isn't  part of the CIE colorimetry,

    therefore this sorting doesn't deliver a visually correct sequence.

     

    According to Poynton (quoted below):

    http://www.poynton.com/notes/colour_and_gamma/ColorFAQ.html#RTFToC11

     

    in video technology a linear combination of R',G',B', called

    Luma,  is used as a substitute for luminance Y:

    The coefficients that correspond to the "NTSC" red, green

    and blue  CRT phosphors of 1953 are standardized in ITU-R

    Recommendation BT.  601-2 (formerly CCIR  Rec.  601-2).

    I call it Rec.  601.

    To compute nonlinear video luma from nonlinear red, green

    and blue:

    This well known formula is often applied to sRGB though it is based

    on NTSC primaries and illuminant C whitepoint.

     

    You may try sorting by Luma...

     

    Here's another attempt how to sort colors for special purposes:

    http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/palette30082003.pdf

     

    Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2012 2:20 PM   in reply to Autumnmantis

    Yes 2.2.

     

    Think about 50% gray -- you have a gamma encoded value of 127/255, that should map to a linear value near 18% (reflectance matching 50% perceived lightness).

     

    127/255 ^ 2.2 = 0.216

     
    |
    Mark as:

More Like This

  • Retrieving data ...

Bookmarked By (1)

Answers + Points = Status

  • 10 points awarded for Correct Answers
  • 5 points awarded for Helpful Answers
  • 10,000+ points
  • 1,001-10,000 points
  • 501-1,000 points
  • 5-500 points