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Greater than or equal symbol not working

Aug 30, 2010 8:35 AM

Hi,

 

I cannot get the "greater than or equal to" symbol to display properly. I can get the less than or equal symbol to display by typing Ctrl+q #, and then formatting it as Symbol font.

 

According to the Character_Sets.pdf FrameMaker Online reference, the greaterequal symbol is Ctrl+q 3, but when I format it as Symbol, FrameMaker displays a box (which looks to me to be a non-printing character).

 

Any suggestions on how I get a "greater than or equal to" symbol to display?

 

Thanks,

John B.

 

FrameMaker 8 (8.0 p277)

Windows XP SP 3

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 30, 2010 9:53 AM   in reply to John BW

    With the unicode support in FM8, some of the old shortcuts are messed up (these still work in FM7.2 and earlier). Try alt+0179 on the numeric keypad or use the Charmap utility to copy & paste.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 16, 2012 12:01 PM   in reply to Arnis Gubins

    I could not get the Ansi (Alt+0179, which produced nothing), the Hex code (Alt+\xb3, which produced nothing), or the Key sequence (Control+q 3, which produced an empty box) to work for the greater than or equal to character. I had to copy it from the character set document with the default character tag applied.

     

    Thanks,

    Karen

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2012 5:30 AM   in reply to John BW

    > I cannot get the "greater than or equal to" symbol to display properly.

     

    Try this...

     

    Click in margin.

    Format > Characters > Designer...

    Character Tag: [ Symbol ]

    Family: [ Symbol ]

    all else As Is or blank

    Commands: New Format...

    [*] Store in Catalog

     

    Click in Body Flow A.

    Special > Variable...

    [Create Variable]

    Name: [ char.symbol.greaterequal ]

    Definition: [ <Symbol>\xb3 ]

    [Add]

    [Done]

    [Insert]

     

    Advantages:

    • Avoid frequent arcane typing: you only need to look up the special character entry sequence once per document (if that - we keep these var defs in a separate catalog for ease of application).
    • Isolates special char encodings for dealing with eventual replacement by native Unicode glyphs and/or ports to platforms lacking legacy Symbol overlay font
    • Isolates special char renderings for possible changes to font with native >= glyph
    • Assures text inserted adjacent to symbol will be in native paragraph font, and not Symbol.
    • Prevents spell checker from needlessly complaining.
    • Is portable between FM platforms and releases, although \xb3 does appear as Š (cap s caron above) in Windows dialogs.

     

    Disadvantages:

    • If you apply a Default ¶ Font to the para, the variable is no longer in Symbol font (but this is always the case for variables that use alternate fonts). You have to re-select the var (which may be hard to even see), and re-insert it.
    • If you highlight the entire para, or just the text containing the var, and apply a new PgfTag, the variable likewise gets de-fonted. It has ever been thus.
    • You have to search by Variable, and not by special character.

    _______

    So what do we suppose made this topic so popular that it's got over 1000 Views so far?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2012 6:07 AM   in reply to Error7103

    Error7103 wrote:

     

    > I cannot get the "greater than or equal to" symbol to display properly.

     

    Try this...

     

    Click in margin.

    Format > Characters > Designer...

    Character Tag: [ Symbol ]

    Family: [ Symbol ]

    all else As Is or blank

    Commands: New Format...

    [*] Store in Catalog

     

    Click in Body Flow A.

    Special > Variable...

    [Create Variable]

    Name: [ char.symbol.greaterequal ]

    Definition: [ <Symbol>\xb3 ]

    [Add]

    [Done]

    [Insert]

     

    Advantages:

    • Avoid frequent arcane typing: you only need to look up the special character entry sequence once per document (if that - we keep these var defs in a separate catalog for ease of application).
    • Isolates special char encodings for dealing with eventual replacement by native Unicode glyphs and/or ports to platforms lacking legacy Symbol overlay font
    • Isolates special char renderings for possible changes to font with native >= glyph
    • Assures text inserted adjacent to symbol will be in native paragraph font, and not Symbol.
    • Prevents spell checker from needlessly complaining.
    • Is portable between FM platforms and releases, although \xb3 does appear as Š (cap s caron above) in Windows dialogs.

     

    Disadvantages:

    • If you apply a Default ¶ Font to the para, the variable is no longer in Symbol font (but this is always the case for variables that use alternate fonts). You have to re-select the var (which may be hard to even see), and re-insert it.
    • If you highlight the entire para, or just the text containing the var, and apply a new PgfTag, the variable likewise gets de-fonted. It has ever been thus.
    • You have to search by Variable, and not by special character.

    _______

    So what do we suppose made this topic so popular that it's got over 1000 Views so far?

     

    I tried these instructions with great anticipation, but alas, it did not work for me.

    Maybe it works differently on FrameMaker 9. I even tried making a PDF to see if it just rendered differently on the screen, since you mentioned the display in Windows dialog boxes (even though I was just in the main flow).

     

    See the screenshot below for my results.

     

    Equipment Care Excerpt.jpg

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2012 7:49 AM   in reply to farrelldoc

    > Maybe it works differently on FrameMaker 9.

     

    Or maybe it's a bug. The instructions I provided worked for the case of:
    create on FM7.1/Unix, and
    use on FM9/Win7-64.

     

    Attempting to create the variable on FM9 failed (got a box, i.e. no glyph for that code point - I haven't yet* studied the MIF to find out what's happening).

     

    If you don't ever plan to port the document back to an FM earlier than 8, I'd do the var as Unicode:

     

    Try this...

     

    Click in margin.

    Format > Characters > Designer...

    Character Tag: [ Unicode ]

    Family: [ Arial Unicode MS ]

    all else As Is or blank

    Commands: New Format...

    [*] Store in Catalog

     

    Click in Body Flow A.

    Special > Variable...

    [Create Variable]

    Name: [ U+2265.GREATER-THAN OR EQUAL TO ]

    Definition: [ <Unicode>≥ ]

    [Add]

    [Done]

    [Insert]

     

    You'll need to get that U+2265 character (>, hacked here as > underlined) in the Definition box from either the Frame or Windows Character Map, unless you've done the Registry hack that allows Alt entry of Unicode code points. Frame apparently has no code point notation for Unicode values in dialogs.

    ________

    * I vote for bug. The originated MIF9 shows an A-ring, rather than an S-caron.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2012 12:10 PM   in reply to Error7103

    Error7103 wrote:

     

    > Maybe it works differently on FrameMaker 9.

     

    Or maybe it's a bug. The instructions I provided worked for the case of:
    create on FM7.1/Unix, and
    use on FM9/Win7-64.

     

    Attempting to create the variable on FM9 failed (got a box, i.e. no glyph for that code point - I haven't yet* studied the MIF to find out what's happening).

     

    If you don't ever plan to port the document back to an FM earlier than 8, I'd do the var as Unicode:

     

    Try this...

     

    Click in margin.

    Format > Characters > Designer...

    Character Tag: [ Unicode ]

    Family: [ Arial Unicode MS ]

    all else As Is or blank

    Commands: New Format...

    [*] Store in Catalog

     

    Click in Body Flow A.

    Special > Variable...

    [Create Variable]

    Name: [ U+2265.GREATER-THAN OR EQUAL TO ]

    Definition: [ <Unicode>≥ ]

    [Add]

    [Done]

    [Insert]

     

    You'll need to get that U+2265 character (>, hacked here as > underlined) in the Definition box from either the Frame or Windows Character Map, unless you've done the Registry hack that allows Alt entry of Unicode code points. Frame apparently has no code point notation for Unicode values in dialogs.

    ________

    * I vote for bug. The originated MIF9 shows an A-ring, rather than an S-caron.

     

    I vote for bug also, but your fix above works! (I copied and pasted the symbol from your text.) :-)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2012 12:56 PM   in reply to farrelldoc

    > I copied and pasted the symbol from your text.

     

    Isn't it nice that we live in a time when that often works?

    (It didn't, all the time, when I was composing the reply.)

     

    For those doing special characters as Variables, some remarks.

    • The example I provided is just my first real foray into Unicode for Frame, and is something we'll need to handle in my day job shop, at some point. I may change my mind about how to do it optimally.
    • The Character tag "Unicode" is a flag to the author that it needs to be mapped to a font having a critical mass of code points populated with glyphs. On most PCs, I suspect that's the Arial Unicode MS font, which is why I used it.
    • For Variable Name, I suggest using the formal uncode.org Code Point notation U+#### or U+#####, a separator (I used dot) and the formal unicode.org Character Name (which is all caps here because it's all [small]caps in the standard). This is economically self-explanatory, and easy to process (or feed) using scripts and the Unicode data base.

     

    It would be nice if Adobe would support some sort of \u+2265 notation for entering arbitrary Unicode values in dialogs. They could even auto-convert them to UTF-8 - but only if Frame verifies that the dialog font has the code point.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2012 1:31 PM   in reply to farrelldoc

    @Karen,

     

    You didn't mention which font family you're using. Not all symbols are available in all families. If you want the greater than or equal to symbol you should be using an OTF Pro or TT-WGL level fonts or you need to apply a character tag to change the font family to one (e.g. Symbol) that has the glyph that you want.

     

    @Error7103,

     

    To enter unicode values in dialog boxes, simply use the \uNNNN notation. Hex values use the \xNN format. Using a "+" sign in the notation will mess things up. Also, Arial Unicode MS should be avoided as I've seen it cause more problems than it solves. Use OTF Pro fonts or any recent TT versions. These have around 4K glyphs as compared to the 32K in the Arial Unicode MS.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2012 1:49 PM   in reply to Arnis Gubins

    Arnis Gubins wrote:

     

    @Karen,

     

    You didn't mention which font family you're using. Not all symbols are available in all families. If you want the greater than or equal to symbol you should be using an OTF Pro or TT-WGL level fonts or you need to apply a character tag to change the font family to one (e.g. Symbol) that has the glyph that you want.

     

    Hi Arnis,

     

    I first tried the Symbol font in the text with Control+q 3. I got a box. Then I tried Symbol in a variable as described by @Error7103, above. I got an S-caron. Finally Arial Unicode MS worked as described by @Error7103, above, and I got a greater than or equal to symbol. Much appreciated, @Error7103!

     

    Thanks,

    Karen

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2012 1:49 PM   in reply to Arnis Gubins

    > To enter unicode values in dialog boxes, simply use the \uNNNN notation.

     

    Thanks. I've updated a previous thread I opened on that topic.

     

    And Adobe does convert the \u2265 sequence to its UTF-8 equivalent (at least for U+2265 ≥, I haven't tried any code points known to be missing in dialog fonts)

     

    > Also, Arial Unicode MS should be avoided as I've seen it cause more problems than it solves.

     

    Any suspicions why?

    Perhaps the GB2312-80.EUC encoding?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2012 2:21 PM   in reply to farrelldoc

    Karen,

     

    It depends upon which version of the Symbol font that you have installed. If it is an old postscript (PS) version, then the ctrl-q 3 will work. It doesn't work for the OTF version. Use the Alt+0179 combo or ctrl-q 8 (the Standard Character set shortcut for the ANSI 0179 position) instead.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2012 2:29 PM   in reply to Error7103

    IIRC, the problem was in FM8 with the Arial Unicode MS. It messed up with the spacing in the extended characters. I can't remember if it's been fixed in later releases, as I've avoided the font. It contains no kerning information, no italics, nor does it have smoothing operators for the glyphs in some of the commonly used document sizes.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 19, 2012 9:32 AM   in reply to Arnis Gubins

    Arnis Gubins wrote:

     

    Karen,

     

    It depends upon which version of the Symbol font that you have installed. If it is an old postscript (PS) version, then the ctrl-q 3 will work. It doesn't work for the OTF version. Use the Alt+0179 combo or ctrl-q 8 (the Standard Character set shortcut for the ANSI 0179 position) instead.

     

    Thanks Arnis,

     

    The symbol font with ctrl-q 8 worked for me. I deleted the variable and character tag I created earlier with Arial Unicode MS (which was a pain because I had already imported those into four books). Thanks for the info!

     

    After you imparted this info, I also experimented with the entire character set in the Symbol font. It would be great if it was documented somewhere. If no one else has such a document, maybe I'll create one and post it here when I get some spare time...

     

    Thanks again,

    Karen

     
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