Hello,
I noticed that LR4.1 seems to use green equilibrilation on raw files coming from the Olympus OM-D E-M5 albeit it is not needed. This results in additional moire and loss of very fine detail compared to what other software is capable of delivering out of E-M5 raw files.
As far as I know LR applied green equilibrilation on all Olympus files in the past, because it was necessary. Now I wonder if this is a left-over/bug or if it is still done deliberately?!
Thanks,
Timur
Hi Timur,
I'm not sure your assertion that it is not necessary is actually correct. I checked a DNG and the BayerGreenSplit value is 250, so you are correct that it is being applied. I took said DNG file and edited it to set the BayerGreenSplit value to 0. The result was mazing artifacts in the sky. In fact looking at the default file (250) it appears close to an optimal choice for the split value as there is just the very slightest hint of mazing in the sky and the detail loss in the rest of the image is very low. At least in my sample image I'm not seeing a difference in Moire between the 0 and 250 setting, though I've only got a few features with Moire in the scene. Based on that I'm thinking someone very intentionally and carefully set the BayerGreenSplit value being used.
What is your basis for deciding it isn't necessary? Be aware that examining RAW histograms of a grey target and see the channels the same is not sufficient. The split is not just required for different luminance sensitivities but also for cases in which spectral response is different. A better test is to shoot blue and red patches or ramps and then carefully examine the G1 and G2 values. Sometimes even though they were equal on a grey target they differ on a blue or red target.
Ken
EDIT: Here is the two versions, 0 on the left, default of 250 on the right:
Thanks for the reply and good idea about the DNG conversion. I will try that, too.
What makes me believe that Green Equilibration should not be necessary is:
- White Balance coefficients for both green channels are listed as 256 in EXIF.
- Raw Therapee only shows labryrinth noise in some areas of some images.
- DXO get about the same detail increase as RT over LR, but even manages without any labyrinth noise where RT does not.
- RawDigger histrograms look the same for both green channels.
Hi Timur,
I just wanted to follow up and say that I've examined G1 and G2 samples from a variety of color patches and found no case in which they differ. So my earlier caveat about there possibly being different spectral responses even if the gains appeared equal on grayscales does not appear to apply. It really looks like G1 and G2 are identical as you stated.
Still sort of curious about the increased mazing when BayerGreenSplit is set to 0 rather than the default of 250. I really can not see a significant difference in detail between the two, but I do see additional mazing. I wonder if the BayerGreenSplit parameter is being tuned by sight or a test pattern by Adobe regardless of whether the G1 and G2 channels are actually different? Or is it just an oversight from previous cameras as you suspect?
Would love to hear a clarification from the Abobe folks on this one...
Ken
My understanding from someone at Adobe is that, for current versions of LR and ACR, the BayerGreenSplit value functions only as a on/off switch, zero being off and anything non-zero being on. In earlier versions, the value was meaningful, but in the latest versions the algorithm in effect autotunes itself to an optimal value.
Note also that if LR/ACR recognize the camera model in a DNG file, they will ignore the BayerGreenSplit value anyway.
Sandy
These are two quotes I found on the web concerning BayerGreenSplit in Lightroom:
Eric Chan (LR4 developer): "You are right, the green split suppression is now being applied to all the Micro 4/3 models including G1 and GH1, so the definition is not quite as high as previously. We are still studying ways to improve the resolution and edge smoothness while balancing suppression of pattern noise."
Manuel Llorens García (rawness.es): "Adobe programs, ACR based (Photoshop & Lightroom) can effectively diagnose whether the image will produce artifacts or not and they fix it in the same way as dcraw, using something similar to a four channel VNG"
RawTherapee introducs pattern/labyrinth noise in some areas, too (see my last image). But not only do you have control over whether and how much Green Split/Equilibrilation you want to apply to overcome that, but the outcome is sometimes better to work with. The image before the last with the vertical fences shows considerable moire being left _after_ color noise filtering (default 25) has been applied in Lightroom. In fact you have to push the color noise filter considerble close to 100 to get rid of that while RawTherapee's filter has no problem with using low filtering.
And DXO still shows that the additional detail is possible without pattern and additional moire.
Thanks Sandy and Timur for the follow up information. It does sound like ACR/LR is using this parameter on purpose in cases other than where there are actual G1/G2 differences.
Timur, be aware of the rather different default sharpening algorithms used in ACR/LR compared to both RT and DXO. If you want to make a better detail comparison be sure to crank up the "Detail" slider in LR/ACR to 100 or close to it. That will get the ACR/LR sharpening algorithm to act more like the RT/DXO algorithm and give much more comparable results. The default position in LR/ACR is a bit conservative and in my opinion biased a bit towards portraiture and wedding photographers who really aren't interested in fine detail.
sandy_mc wrote:
Note also that if LR/ACR recognize the camera model in a DNG file, they will ignore the BayerGreenSplit value anyway.
Hmmm, I'd say my example clearly demonstrates this isn't that case. All I did was take a LR generated DNG and edit the BayerGreenSplit value and then reimport into LR and the rendering is clearly different. So I'd say at least in this version of LR that LR is definitely reading the BayerGreenSplit value and applying it even when it recognizes the camera information in the DNG file.
Ken
Thank for the hint, but my demonstration images 1,2 and 4 did not use any kind or sharpening or noise filtering at all. ![]()
Image 3 used noise filters and some unusual sharpening settings in order to pull fine line detail sharpness (to bring out the fences) without halos from all three programs. You normally wouldn't use these extreme settings to get "pleasing" results. Here are the settings:
DXO - Lens Softness
Global: -2.00 (to get rid of any white sharpening halos)
Details: 100 (for maximum contrast on fine line details)
Bokeh: 0 (to avoid blurring away finest details)
LR4
Amount: 37 (quite more than I usually use, but still low enough to avoid halos and reticulation noise)
Radius: 0.8 (to catch the finest details without having coarse lines blow over)
Detail: 100 (for maximum contrast on fine line details)
Masking: 3 (just enough to catch some noise in the sky background without blurring finest details)
RT4 - Deconvolution
Radius: 0.79 (too lazy to dial in 0.8
)
Amount: 75 (default, 100 would have increased some contrast on fine detail at the cost of noise, but I aimed to match DXO)
Damping: 0 (to avoid blurring away finest details)
Iterations: 30 (default, 100 would have increased some contrast on fine detail at the cost of noise, but I aimed to match DXO)
DXO's had some advantages over the other two contenders. First I deliberately chose a Color/Tonality profile that resulted in maximum contrast between the sky and the fence that resulted in the fence being slightly darker/more contrasty to begin with. And of course DXO's Lens Softness can be used to sharpen very strongly without increasing noise, because of the "hidden" and very effective noise masking done by DXO. I could have used more masking with LR4 and damping with RT4 to get a similar effect, but that would have blurred away some of the lesser dark/contrasty fence parts.
One thing I forgot to mention is that DXO's demosaicing is not entirely free of artifacts. There are vertical lines in several areas that are visible brought out by sharpening, but are already present in the demosaicing data. One example is the backside of the sign on the right side of image 3. The sign looks as if the vertical fence runs between the camera and the sign, but in reality the sign is placed closer to the camera.
Timur Born wrote:
Thank for the hint, but my demonstration images 1,2 and 4 did not use any kind or sharpening or noise filtering at all.
No, actually you did! That was my point, there is no such thing as demosaicing without sharpening. The demosaicing kernels sharpen to a degree no matter what and depending on the software there will be more inherent sharpening in the demosaicing algorithm. Zero isn't zero, it is just as arbitrary a point as randomly setting the sharpening slider is and varies just as much between software.
Thank you very much for the details on set 3. That I think is the more illuminating way to compare the tools and does a much better job showing what recoverable detail there is than a zero sharpening (i.e. arbitrary and not equivalent) setting. I haven't looked at different RAW converters in about two years and it is really helpful to see your results as you've clearly got some good experience with a selection of them.
Ken
That makes sense, especially since DXO seems to apply some form of masking or noise filtering during the demosaicing stage already.
I am least experienced with DXO, but haven't used any of these longer than when LR4 went public beta. Which is why I even started my whole comparison to get an idea of how much difference it can make for certain things. Here is a thread where I documented my comparisons, with some full sized (non compressed) images and additional information about different tonality/curves and white-balance behavior of the different applications.
If you don't want to wade through a whole thread, here is just the images gallery (including the WB table): http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/3262748529/albums/raw-software-compa rison
Think I'm gonna start a dedicated thread about WB, too, as this one confused me.
Hi Timur,
Been a bit since I did it, but if I recall correctly you need to use two tools.
First get exiftool and run it with the -htmlDump option on the DNG file. This will create a HTML file you can open up in a web browser that breaks out all of the EXIF, TIFF and DNG tags in an easy to read format. It includes even those tags that exiftool usually doesn't display or let you edit. This HTML display also shows you the hex address offset into the DNG file for all these tags.
Next, choose a binary hex editor of your choice, open the DNG file, go to the address for the BayerGreenSplit tag indicated in the HTML file and edit it to whatever value you choose. Save the change.
That is a bit round about, but it was the fastest way I could do it with the tools I had on hand without writing actual code to do it. In theory any TIFF tag editor should be able to change the value as well, but I haven't found a good one of those.
Hope that helps!
Ken
Found two ways myself, either via Exiftool (better) or via Cornerfix (worse for EXR type files from my X10). Turns out that Lightroom doesn't seem to care for the BayerGreenSplit value other than ON (any value >0) and OFF (0).
Unfortunately Lightroom's demosaicing is still inferior to both RawTherapee's and DXO's in that it creates labyrinth pattern where the others manage to mostly correctly produce vertical bars.
Thanks again!
Just saw your reply after posting mine. Exiftool is able to directly change the BayerGreenSplit field (-BayerGreenSplit=0) and then either write an output DNG to another file (-o filename) or simply overwrite the original one (overwrite_original_in_place). ![]()
To bad that this mostly results in creating labyrinth pattern instead of smeared away information. I would have prefered real information like both RT and DXO are able to deliver.
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