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Photoshop 10bit support

Oct 15, 2009 12:14 AM

  Latest reply: georg_molterer, Apr 22, 2013 7:01 AM
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 2, 2012 8:53 AM   in reply to wabbi2434

    Zotac Support Germany told me, that all cards with displayport would support 10bpc.

    does anyone have experience with that?

    i have ZOTAC GeForce® GTX 560 1GB (ZT-50701-10M) and think about getting the NEC PA241W. so i would like to have definitive knowledge whether this will work or not.

    Nvidia seems to say that only Quadros work. Zotac tells me, all Cards work. yet all Zotac cards work with GeForce and Nvidia drivers. I am confused.

    thanks

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 2, 2012 1:42 PM   in reply to georg_molterer

    Georg,

     

    The hardware may technically have the ability to handle 10 bits, but unless specific support has been added to the display driver it will not work.  Unless there is something new in the standard (non Quadro) Nvidia drivers, you cannot get 10 bit with a GeForce based card.  Another way to put it is that a Display Port interface may be necessary for 10 bit, but it is not sufficient. 

     

    Ask Zotac to send you the screen shots of the display driver settings to enable 10 bit and see what kind of answer you get.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 3, 2012 1:28 AM   in reply to Chris_BC_1

    Zotac Germany just admitted, that they provided wrong information. so its Nvidia Quadro or 8bpc.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 3, 2012 1:40 AM   in reply to georg_molterer

    Or ATI FirePro. I just built a new system with i7 processor, and z68 Asus mobo with an ATI FirePro V4800 - works fine with 10bit on my NEC PA271W

     

    Chers, Paul

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 3, 2012 2:51 AM   in reply to Chris_BC_1

    Are you sure that Quadro car will allow you to work with Photoshop CS5 in 10bit mode? As far as I know this feature is available only for ATI FirePro cards. On Quadro it should work but it relay doesn’t. I ask on this thread for updates, but at the moment I haven’t see any Quadro card running CS5 in 10bit properly.

     

    I have some machines where I would really like to install Quadro cards but I haven’t because of this 10 bit issue.

     

    I’d like to have an answer from somebody in the Adobe staff. Thanks!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 4, 2012 2:40 AM   in reply to ITAVittorio

    ITAVittorio, you are right. my statement was based on Nvidia claiming 10bpc, but that doesn't mean it works with PS.

     

    an answer from adobe would really be helpful.

     

    specifically for the small Quadro 600 in my case. it puts out 10bpc according to http://www.nvidia.com/docs/IO/40049/NV_DS_QUADRO_600_US_LR.pdf.

    does it work with PS already and if not will Nvidia and Adobe provide updates in the future, so it will work?

    i dont have a 10bpc monitor yet anyway, but i would like to be able to plan what to buy.

    thanks.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 4, 2012 5:31 AM   in reply to NEC271

    Also just started using a new system – Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, i7-2700K CPU, Asus P8Z68-V motherboard and ATI FirePro V5900 (latest Pre WHQL driver) with an NEC SpectraView Reference 271 monitor connected via the display port.  No problems with the 10-bit display, other than it disabling Aero.

     

    NEC271,

    Have you tried selecting a different Windows theme/profile before enabling the 10-bit  option? Also is it only Photoshop with will not display 10-bit properly? There is a tool on the NEC website called 10bitdemo.exe, which will only run if 10-bit support is enabled.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 6, 2012 3:18 PM   in reply to wabbi2434

    Hi everybody. I have Ati FireProV3800 and NEC PA271W with Display Port. I cant' see 10 bit in PS Cs5. ramp.psd appears with banding in PS. I have last driver update of Ati and Adobe. I set right setting in the driver and in PS. I installed again Windows 7 x64 a few weeks ago but I still cannot see any way 10 bit. I tried Nec 10bit application. It works when 10 bit is enabled but two windows (8 bit and 10 bit) appears equal. I cannot see any differences. What else can I do? When I bought Monitor and Ati card (October 2010) I tried and it worked in 10 bit. After 2-3 months no more.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 22, 2012 6:23 PM   in reply to wabbi2434

    Finally in CS6 Beta there is a 30 bit Display option and now it works fine.2012-03-23_021729.jpg

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 22, 2012 7:00 PM   in reply to NEC271

    Previously it was dependent on the driver, now we enable it and offer a way to turn it off.

     

    Unfortunately Apple has indicated that they have no plans to support higher bit depth displays.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 23, 2012 5:18 AM   in reply to wabbi2434

    Yes but you must enable it in the driver too. Now It doesn't work just PS enable.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 17, 2012 3:05 PM   in reply to wabbi2434

    Is normal to see 10 bit in CS6 just when any windows is open? If I open a Levels windows 10 bit mode disappears.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 17, 2012 5:09 PM   in reply to georg_molterer

    Georg, I am in the same situation as you with the Zotac ZT-50701-10M GEForce GTX 560 ferni, NVidia.

    Just built a new PC with the anticipation of using wide gamut or 10 bit color but according to what I read here, that is not possible with my card.

     

    I looks like many people want NVidia to update the driver for this. And the only thing I can determine after scouring their website is that only their Quadro series supports 10 bit in Win7. But oddly they have a driver that will apparently support 10 bit in Linux.

     

    Has anyone heard of any updates from NVidia that they will release an update for the 560? There is nothing on their website to indicate they have or will.

     

    In my case the video card is brand  new, only used to test the system a few times but beyond the return date. So if NVidia is not going to put out a driver I have two options: replace the card with one that supports 10 bit or add a second card.

     

    Option 1: Replace the card: from a price perspactive the NVidia Quadro 600 ($150) and the ATI FirePro V4900 ($165) are close in price to what the Zotac cost. Even though the NVidia Quadro states that it supports 10 bit I've been hard pressed to see reviews so I am hesitant there. The ATI seems to be a better value for the money at least according to Passmark. But the GTX 560 ranked 2719, the Firepro V4900 ranked 1471 and the Quadro 500 ranked 709 (higher score better. So, to get close to what I have with a card that will do 10 bit and is supported by Adobe I would have to double the price of the Quadro or Firepro, which is a lot more than I paid for the GTX 560 to begin with. Am I missing anything?

     

    Option 2: add a second card. Here is where my limited ability fails me. If I read correctly, to add a second card the board needs to support it (mine does in both 2 way SLI and 2 way Crossfire). It appears like both graphics cards have to be identical to run in SLI but not in Crossfire. Is that right?

    If that is the case would I be better off just adding a card to my existing card? Would the Quadro 600 be the best to add since they are both NVidia (even though I still have the same concerns - can''t find any success stories using the Quadro whereas I have seen them with the Firepro and an Asus PA246Q monitor).

     

    Last question: if I do have to replace my card, where is a good place to sell a basically new video card? Is it eBay like everything else or are there some specialty sites better?

     

    THANKS for any advice.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 11:51 AM   in reply to dkg62

    Hi everybody. I have Ati FireProV4800 and EIZO FlexScan S2243W  with 8 bit panel and 10 bit LUT, with Display Port. I cant' see 10 bit in PS Cs5. ramp.psd appears with banding in PS. I have last driver update of Ati. I set right setting in the driver and in PS.EIZO FlexScan S2243W  support 10 bit or not?  What else can I do?

     

    Thanks for any advice.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 1:09 PM   in reply to asmil-m

    If it's an 8 bit panel, I presume that's all it will show, even if drivin as 10 bit.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 3:00 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    In the EIZO support  -  EIZO FlexScan s2243w is monitor with advanced 8+ bit panel and 10 bit LUT ???  Advanced 8+ bit panel ??? I do not understand the difference between  8 bit,8+ bit  S-PVA panels ?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 5:34 PM   in reply to asmil-m

    There are others here that do understand the panel technology better than I do. My perspective is similar to printers; you can send 16 bit info to a printer but if the device can only print 8 bit levels that's all you get.

     

    Maybe screens are otherwise.

     

    Anyone?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 11:10 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    8+  probably means dithered as some are.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 24, 2012 11:00 AM   in reply to Lundberg02

    More is just more, not better. That is why Apple really could care less about giving more if you dont need it.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,471 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Aug 24, 2012 1:04 PM   in reply to Mike Ornellas

    Seems to me people wouldn't be wanting more if it was not better under certain specific conditions they care about.  The check for whether you have achieved 30 bit operation is a gradient display with which you can actually SEE the discrete levels. 

     

    If a person can SEE the degradation, and that matters to them, then they should have options for eliminating it.

     

    It's pretty obvious that not everyone agrees that the same level of display quality is acceptable.  Some people may care very much whether they see posterization in the preview images on their display, while others may feel a loose facsimile is good enough... 

     

    Lundberg has recently commented in another thread that an egregiously inaccurate rendering of a gray gradient looked okay to him, yet I find it offensive.  On the other hand, I have an 8 bit display pipeline and I find it just fine for doing Photoshop work.  Then there are the folks participating in this thread who find an 8 bit pipeline unacceptable and are willing to spend for more.

     

    What I think is funny, though, is that zoomed-out resolutions Photoshop provides a speed-optimized (and sometimes quite inaccurate) facsimile of a layered document - even when the document is 16 bits/channel, unless some very specific configuration choices are made (outside the 30 Bit Display setting).  Yet we really haven't seen that discussed here much.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 24, 2012 1:01 PM   in reply to Mike Ornellas

    Depends on how one defines needs. If needs are based on current practice, yes more isn't better. If needs are based on where the technology is likely to go, well then, more may be the only option. That is, of course also from the supplier perspective vs user. I want a system that I don't have to replace each time technology changes. From Apple's POV, they want you to buy new each time.

     

    BTW a good piece of test software for panels is the eizo-test. I found it at www.prad.de. One peculiar or rather unexpected outcome was the native resolution of the Del 2412. Recommended resolution is 1920x1200 px. Native according to the eizo is 1200x800.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 24, 2012 1:05 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    I don't understand the last paragraph. Zoomed out resolutions? Speed optimized facsimile of a layered image? What's there to know that we can discuss?

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,471 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Aug 24, 2012 1:16 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Hudechrome wrote:

     


    One peculiar or rather unexpected outcome was the native resolution of the Del 2412. Recommended resolution is 1920x1200 px. Native according to the eizo is 1200x800.

     

    I find it impossible to believe that a monitor being advertised as having 1920 x 1200 pixels doesn't actually have that actual count of discrete pixels.  I suggest that the Eizo software must be in error.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 24, 2012 1:40 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    I probably should go ask them. It does generate a certain distrust in the overall test.

     

    But printers also have an advertised dot that is some multiple of the native The native dot size of the 3800 is 720x720 dpi but you can run it at 2880x1440. That is if you believe Epson. But another person who made a study of the Epson 2200 dot patterns has much to say about it.

     

    http://www.rags-int-inc.com/

     

    Click on the Technology button and scroll down to printers.

     

    This is OT  but yet apropos the overall concept.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,471 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Aug 24, 2012 2:05 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Hudechrome wrote:

     

    I don't understand the last paragraph. Zoomed out resolutions? Speed optimized facsimile of a layered image? What's there to know that we can discuss?

     

    Scenario:  You have a multi-layer document in Photoshop, displayed on your screen at, say, 50% resolution.  Let's say this document is intended to contain very high quality gradients when it is output - not unlike what you might want for a fine art print.  Further, let's assume you've got adjustment layers and maybe feathered masks and maybe even some layer styles.

     

    Photoshop combines the layers when at zoomed-out display sizes using a speed-optimized algorithm, which is actually working on downsized preview images (called Cache Levels) so as to get your display updated as quickly as possible. 

     

    When zoomed-out, the display is necessarily degraded because the layer combination is being done at a low bit depth. 

     

    Not only that, but Layer Styles are being approximated as well.  You've heard the advice to only evaluate effects at 100% zoom, right?

     

    Here's a 16 bits/channel PSD file which uses adjustment layers to show the issue very clearly.  Open it in Photoshop, zoom it out to 50% or smaller and notice the difference from what you see at higher zoom values.

     

    http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/ForumPosts/LayerCombinationTestDocu ment.psd

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 24, 2012 6:21 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Ok, I see the difference. It's dramatic, far more than I ever see.

     

    But wait! There's more!

     

    What is linear srgb? It's not in my Color Settings choices and the difference when zooming is huge, depending on

    whether you have converted or not.

    linear sRGB.JPG

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,471 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Aug 24, 2012 6:25 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    That's a linear profile of my own creation - basically an sRGB profile with a gamma of 1.0 instead of 2.2.  I find it useful for testing and astroimage work, among other things.

     

    It happens to enhance the differences but the concepts still apply even when using one of the more typical document profiles.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 24, 2012 7:42 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    EIZO HIGH END monitors test - a good piece of test software for panels is the eizo-test.I found it at www.prad.de.

     

    http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/testsoftware/eizo-monitor-test.html

     

    asmil

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 21, 2013 5:42 AM   in reply to asmil-m

    still not working

     

    i now have the following setup:

    - 10 bit monitor: quato 240 LED, hardware calibrated

    - 10 bit graphics-card: nvidia quadro 600 with "force 10 bits per component" enabled in the driver

    - PS CS 6 with "30 bit display" enabled in the advanced graphics processor settings

    - win 7 64 with aero disabled

     

    and the testramp still shows banding.

     

    am i missing something?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 21, 2013 9:23 AM   in reply to georg_molterer

    At that point you need to work with NVidia to see what is going wrong between their driver and your display.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 7, 2013 11:30 PM   in reply to georg_molterer

    I wanted to make this setup.

    How Nivida solved the problem with quadro 600.

    Should I buy a other videocard?

    Tank's for help.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 8, 2013 12:21 AM   in reply to mdb-at

    On Windows, both companies have it working pretty well with Photoshop CS6.

    On MacOS, it is still not possible because Apple has created the necessary APIs.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 13, 2013 6:01 AM   in reply to Chris Cox

    my very frustrating experience so far: it doesn't work, but it's no ones fault

    --------

    my setup:

    - 10 bit monitor: Quato Intelli Proof 240 LED excellence, hardware calibrated, getting signal via displayport

    - 10 bit graphics-card: nvidia quadro 600

    - PS CS 6 with "30 bit display" enabled in the advanced graphics processor settings

    - win 7 64 with aero disabled

    --------

    in this forum chris cox says, that ps outputs 10 bits.

    other posts in this forum say, that it works with win 7.

     

    support at PNY (which is the manufacturer of my quadro600-card) is telling me, that quadro 600 works on their test setup with a NEC monitor. they don't know why it doesn't work for me. their support is very friendly and can be called on the phone. they seem to care and are in contact with nvidia, but i didn't get any results yet (3 weeks).

     

    support at Quato tells me that 10 bit isn't working with Win 7. which contradicts experiences i this forum and this post from an NEC-emlployee: http://www.ronmartblog.com/2011/07/guest-blog-understanding-10-bit-col or.html. their support is also friendly and can be reached by phone.

     

    so the only company i haven't contacted yet is microsoft, which i also don't want to try as that's probably wasted energy and  it seems not to be the problem anyway.

    i will also send a link to this post to all the companies involved.

     

    so mdb-at i wouldnt recommend my setup. but who knows, it might work on your machine.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 13, 2013 7:59 AM   in reply to georg_molterer

    Double check and make sure you have 10 bit display enabled in Photoshop's advanced GPU preferences, and that "DeepColor" is enabled in the NVidia controls.

     

    After that, NVidia are the only ones who could troubleshoot it and figure out why the driver isn't reporting 10 bit capability, or getting the data out to the display.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 13, 2013 8:08 AM   in reply to Chris Cox

    ps settings.jpg

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,471 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Feb 13, 2013 1:11 PM   in reply to georg_molterer

    Haven't some folks been able to use Aero and 10 bit color at the same time with nVidia?  Seems I've read that somewhere.  Have you tried it?

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 13, 2013 8:26 PM   in reply to georg_molterer

    With my AMD card, there is a specific setting in the graphics card driver to enable 10 bit output.  Once enabled, you need to reboot and Windows automatically disables Aero.  There is no need to disable Aero manually.  This is also true of other video/graphics changes which are incompatible with Aero, which is that Windows disables Aero automatically.

     

    I didn't see where you mentioned changing a setting in your display driver to enable 10 bit.  If you haven't tried that then look at all the settings in the display driver for your card.  And I just noticed Chris Cox mentioned this already with the "Deep Color" setting.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 14, 2013 1:09 AM   in reply to Chris_BC_1

    first off: thanks for everyones help!

     

    second: i havent tried switching aero ON before. just did it now including reboot, but same as with aero off.

     

    the deep color option is from an older driver. according to support from my manufacturer and nvidia the 30-bit signal will be activated automatically via displayport if a 30-bit screen is detected.

    there is an option called "force 10-bit per component" in the newer driver, but that doesn't change anything. and support told me not to switch it on.

     

    so maybe the screen isn't recognized as 30-bit capable (which the manufacturer of the screen tells me it is).

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 14, 2013 8:21 AM   in reply to georg_molterer

    NVidia should have some diagnostic tools to tell if the display is detected as 10 bit capable (and, of course, that only works with displayport, not DVI).

     

    I don't know the protocol they use to determine this, but suspect it's another EDID result. If so, you might be able to use an EDID utility to display those results yourself.  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_display_identification_data )

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 14, 2013 9:29 AM   in reply to Chris Cox

    this tool http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm tells me "Color bit depth.......... Undefined" for both of my monitors. the 8bpc and the supposedly 10bpc.

    i will try and connect the supports of the two companies.

     
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