Adobe Community: Lightroom 4: Massive BUG with White Balance / Quick Develop. Totally Unreliable!

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Lightroom 4: Massive BUG with White Balance / Quick Develop. Totally Unreliable!

Sep 7, 2012 5:39 AM

Tags: #lightroom #module #4 #quick #white #develop #balance #lr4

I just recently updated from LR3 and just now found a massive bug concerning the white balance adjustments in the quick develop module.

After a studio shooting and especially after weddings I use the "make warmer" adjustment in the quick develop panel to give all (a few thousand NEFs) a nicer look all at once.

The great thing about this is - like all quick developments - that it increases the color temperature relative to each image's starting white balance.

Yesterday I wanted to edit my first wedding in LR4 and like in LR3 applied one click "make warmer" to all images at once (previously WB was "as shot").

While I browsed through the images to rate them I noticed some of them were very "pinkish".

After closer inspection it came out that a lot of images (50%-60%) had the following custom WB set: 5316, Tint: +10.

It is always this exact combination no matter what the "as shot" WB was.

That setting of course applies way too much magenta to a lot of images.

After resetting the WB of single images to "as shot" and selecting "make warmer" once again the images look fine and get appropriate WB values.

But every time I select more than one image to apply "make warmer" a lot of them get the strange value of 5316 and +10.

Sometimes it's even just the first few images of the selection that get correct values and all the following ones get the off value. It appears to be totally random.

I tried completely resetting all images prior to "make warmer", setting them to different camera profiles first and even switched them to Process 2010 again. But absolutely no luck! :-(

The "make warmer" tool gives me totally unusable results.

I find it strange, that I couldn't find anything about that on the net.

PLEASE fix this ASAP.

To apply WB to thousands of images individually is a real pain.

I would be glad to support you fixing the issue.

My setup:

Nikon D700

Nikon D300s

(Both cameras affected, I only shoot NEF)

Win7 x64

LR4.1 as well as LR4.2 RC

5598 Views 42 Replies Latest reply: Thierry Antoine, Dec 2, 2012 1:35 AM

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1. Rikk Flohr,

Sep 7, 2012 6:37 AM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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I cannot duplicate your results. It is working as expected on my Win 7 64 bit system.

"I find it strange, that I couldn't find anything about that on the net."

Perhaps it is because it is either not widespread or limited to your system alone.

Lightroom 4.1 and 4.2 RC use the same preference file. Have you tried to reset your preference file yet?

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2. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 6:40 AM in reply to Rikk Flohr

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Thanks for your reply and your efforts.

I will try to reset my preferences. Do you mean any file in particular?

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3. Rikk Flohr,

Sep 7, 2012 6:44 AM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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1. Close Lightroom
2. Rename the preferences file (http://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/kb/preference-file-locations-lightroo m-4.html)
3. Reopen Lightroom and allow the preferences to rebuild.

This is the easiest to check.
If this doesn't work, we can try some additional steps.

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4. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 11:49 AM in reply to Rikk Flohr

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No luck with reset settings.

Still I could try new settings and fresh catalog.
But I don't expect a lot to be honest.

Do you maybe have another idea?

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5. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 12:37 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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Nope.

A new catalog with reset settings and freshly imported NEFs (without xmps of course) doesn't help either.

Actually after the seventh pic every single one was pinkish.
I'm going nuts here.

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6. Geoff the kiwi,

Sep 7, 2012 12:38 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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I've tested this on my Mac and cannot replicate, I get the expected result.
You have checked with a subset of files? You have checked the before and after WB values in Develop? Was the Tint at +10 to begin?

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7. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 12:48 PM in reply to Geoff the kiwi

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Hi,

I checked with sets of 10, 50 and 100.
Doesn't make a difference really.

Of course I checked before and after of the files. WB and tint are completely different before and are always 5316 and +10 after.

You can imagine how "off" an image looks that was 2750 and -13 before.

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8. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 12:53 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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Actually I may have found some kind of hint at least.

I noticed that with all images that got the "warmer" treatment a history step called "Camera Raw Settings" appears prior to the actual "Make Warmer" step.

This "Camera Raw Settings" sets WB to 5001 and +10!

So after "Make Warmer" it's 5316 and +10.

I have no idea what that "Camera Raw Settings" step is and why it influences WB on some files while it doesn't on others.

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9. Geoff the kiwi,

Sep 7, 2012 1:02 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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Great detective work Felix..... let me ponder this!!
What other History steps are there?

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10. Geoff the kiwi,

Sep 7, 2012 1:07 PM in reply to Geoff the kiwi

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I can see that Camera Raw Settings on some files I have as well and indeed it changes the WB fron As Shot to Custom without changing the values. When Make Warmer is applied it is applying it to a "Custom" WB which is then synced across the others. Which makes sense of the result you are getting.
Can you check that the WB before you begin is set to As Shot rather than Custom as I think is happening please.

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11. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 1:08 PM in reply to Geoff the kiwi

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There is nothing else.

I reset everything to be sure I have no unneccesary influences on the files.

PV2012
Adobe Standard as Profile.
WB "as shot"
All tone values 0
and so on...

Not a single value that is altered prior to "make warmer".

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12. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 1:11 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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I just installed LR4 on my laptop where I usually don't run it.

Same thing! 5316 and +10!

I guess I'm gonna dream about these numbers tonight.

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13. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 8, 2012 4:49 AM in reply to Geoff the kiwi

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Thanks. Yeah, I noticed that too.

The "Camera Raw Settings" Step sets WB to custom. And that appears to be the problem. I have no clue why but LR seems to think custom should be 5001 and +10.

It is definitely set to "as shot" first.

I checked that over and over again.

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14. Geoff the kiwi,

Sep 7, 2012 1:16 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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Can you send me a file to geoffwalkernzatgmaildotcom as a DNG 0r Dropbox so it will include the History please. I'd like to se if it matches what I see.
BTW I use Nikon too!!

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15. ssprengel,

Sep 7, 2012 1:19 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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Another thing to wonder about is whether the As Shot is designating a Camera-Auto-WB, a Camera-Measured-from-Shot-Custom-WB, a Camera-Hand-Entered-Kelvin-Custom-WB or a Camera-Named-WB, like Daylight or Flash or Tungsten. I would expect that named WBs might be handled differently than ones with just numbers.

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16. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 1:34 PM in reply to Geoff the kiwi

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@ Geoff

I just send you the file.

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17. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 1:37 PM in reply to ssprengel

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@ssprengel

The camera was set to auto-wb.

I never had problems whatsoever with it and usually enjoy the pretty reliable results.

The only place I use manual values is the studio. But at a wedding there is now time for that and luckily it isn't necessary. Well, usally that is!

Auto-WB + 1 "make warmer" was all I needed for a good starting point until now.

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18. Geoff the kiwi,

Sep 7, 2012 1:51 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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Thanks, am d/loading now.

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19. Geoff the kiwi,

Sep 7, 2012 2:01 PM in reply to Geoff the kiwi

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I can replicate it using your file with others and using your file as the master. When using another image as the master all other images get what is accepted except yours. I'll look into this further but it will be several hours as I am heading out for a meeting right now.

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20. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 2:05 PM in reply to Geoff the kiwi

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Well thanks a bunch Geoff!!!

It feels good to get some support at least.

Right now I'm about to browse through 4000 wedding images one by one just to set an appropriate WB.
What a Friday night that is...

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21. Rikk Flohr,

Sep 7, 2012 2:14 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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Continuing along Steve's line of thought. My Canon's allow me to custom tweak the White Balance for each camera. Since I am not a Nikon afficianado, I don't know if they can be custom calibrated. Have either of your camera's default White Balance fine-tuning settings been changed?

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22. ssprengel,

Sep 7, 2012 2:24 PM in reply to Rikk Flohr

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My Canon’s will tweak their own WB based on whether the flash is fully charged or not, if you are using a camera-mounted flash. What was the lighting situation at the wedding? Was it on-camera flash, or no flash, or umbrellas, or some of all three, and if so does the issue occur only with photos from one of the lighting categories?

Were any of the photos taken in a different camera mode, such as reduce-size RAW (Canon would call them sRAW and mRAW) or as video stills?

You might use ExifTool to investigate if there is some difference in what is recorded in the files that work and the files that don’t.

On Windows you can just unzip the EXE and then drag-and-drop photos onto the EXE in Explorer to see all the EXIF fields displayed in a scrollable that will close if you type any keystrokes into it.

http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/

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23. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 2:30 PM in reply to Rikk Flohr

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@Rikk & ssprengel

No both were just set to auto with no additional custom settings applied.

But even if that had happened, LR4's behaviour would still be very strange.

It should still apply "make warmer" with +ca. 300 WB and not just set it to 5316 and +10 every once in a while, right?
Usually "make warmer" doesn't even touch the tint slider, so something is obviously very wrong here. If I had at least a clue where to look. But with two different PCs, two different cameras, two LR4 versions behaving all the same it is a rough point to start...

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24. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 2:41 PM in reply to ssprengel

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@ssprengel

What was the lighting situation at the wedding? Was it on-camera flash, or no flash, or umbrellas, or some of all three, and if so does the issue occur only with photos from one of the lighting categories?

I used flash as fill.

But the WB-problem happens with RAWs without flash (church), too.
So far I could not find any correlation whatsoever.
Neither Camera, nor ISO, nor anything seems to trigger it. Completely random.
Once I reset a single file and set it to "make warmer" solo it gets the correct value most of the time. But with more than 2 or 3 files at once almost always 50-90% of them get 5316 and +10.

Were any of the photos taken in a different camera mode, such as reduce-size RAW (Canon would call them sRAW and mRAW) or as video stills?

No.

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25. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 2:50 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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Just to make this clear:

The camera's "as shot"-WB values are fine!!!

They are not off by any means!

I just need all 4000 images a little warmer because I prefer it that way and that is just my style.
But of course I can't add 300 WB to every single file by myself.

Thus I use the "make warmer" tool which worked fine in LR3 so far.

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26. Bob Somrak,

Sep 7, 2012 3:08 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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Maybe the consistent 5001 +10 of your original photos might be the white balance settings used when you are using the flash as fill. Does your metadata show some pics using the flash and some not? Just an idea.

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27. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 3:12 PM in reply to Bob Somrak

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@Bob

Not a bad idea, but unfortunately it also happens to images where the flashes weren't even on the cameras, too. (Church)

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28. ssprengel,

Sep 7, 2012 3:24 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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The questions about tweaking camera WB are not about your starting As Shot WB being off, they are about the camera possibly storing the WB information slightly differently in the NEF file and this is confusing LR, and I don’t know as anyone is thinking you or the camera is doing something wrong, but because some of the photos are ok and some are wrong, then there may be slight differences in the information stored in the photos, themselves, that a bug in LR is tripping up on.

The general idea is to find the pattern, find whatever is the same about the photos that have a problem but is different from all the other photos without the problem. It could be something silly like when the date-taken timestamp is within the range of 1-3 seconds there is a problem but not otherwise, although it is a lot more likely that the issue is related to the WB or illumination color values stored in the photo.

Another thing to try would be to change the Profile in the Camera Calibration area at the bottom of the righthand panel in Develop then reset the WB back to As Shot then switch to Library and try the Make Warmer operation. It is possible that the dual-illuminant profiles Adobe has created for your camera have some information in them that LR is reacting to poorly. There have also been 4 different versions of some of the profiles that might affect how LR is doing things.

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29. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 7, 2012 3:42 PM in reply to ssprengel

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@ssprengel

I get your point but that is exactly my problem.

Not only is there no pattern but also once I reset a file that got 5316+10 to "as shot" and select "make warmer" for it again it does get the correct value! As long as I select it as a single file without others.

So just to simplify my findings and explain what I have been doing all night:

- SELECT 5 files in Library View (all freshly imported, no settings altered, WB "as shot")

File 1: 5700 / -8
File 2: 5500 / -8
File 3: 5550 / -8
File 4: 5450 / -6
File 5: 5500 / -7

- CLICK "make warmer" once

Result:
File 1: 6089 / -8
File 2: 5867 / -8
File 3: 5316 / +10
File 4: 5316 / +10
File 5: 5316 / +10

1 and 2 are okay!

- SELECT 3-5
- RESET THEM
Result:
File 3: 5550 / -8
File 4: 5450 / -6
File 5: 5500 / -7

- CLICK "make warmer" again
Result:
File 3: 5316 / +10
File 4: 5812 / -6
File 5: 5867 / -7

File 4 and 5 are okay!

- SELECT File 3 again
- RESET IT
- CLICK "make warmer"

Result:
File 3: 5923 / -8

now File 3 is okay, too.

It is completely random!

But that is no way to work, of course.
I have two weddings from last week and am going nuts already.

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30. ssprengel,

Sep 7, 2012 4:21 PM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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From what you and Geoff have said, it does have something to do with the photos, but it also has something to do with the order or selection number or something.

In the example of the 5 files, what happens if you do the same five files every time? Do the ones that are right and wrong always stay the same as long as the same file is the current photo (more white than the other selected ones)? If you select a different file in the set of 5 before you click Make Warmer, does the set that is wrong change or not? Does it matter if you select the set of photos from the grid view or the thumbnail bar or via a filter of some sort? Does it matter if you select and unselect then reselect the same photos? Does using the reset button vs clicking back to the original history state when you reset things make a difference? If you do an Undo and Redo (if LR has such a thing) does it make a difference?

Have you tried the 32-bit version vs the 64-vit version of LR to see if that matters?

Your approach, based on getting something done, of reducing the new subset to the ones with a problem may be masking what sort of pattern there is.

Depending on how long this takes to figure out, since you have found that it works to do a Make Warmer on an individual photo, it might be worth trying a simple keyboard/mouse recording-playback product that can click the right arrow and then the make warmer and repeat over and over, or whatever series of mouse-moves and mouse-clicks across whatever number of photos before things repeat. You’d have to stop it when it got to the end of a set of photos, but there’s only be a few to fix if they had multiple Make Warmer’s applied. There are 3600 seconds in an hour so if your macro did one photo a second then it’d take a little over an hour to finish.

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31. Geoff the kiwi,

Sep 7, 2012 5:42 PM in reply to ssprengel

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There is something strange going on with your files and I'm not sure what yet!!
Using your file along with 100+ of mine I get the same number for WB 5316/+10 synced to my files when syncing from yours but when I use mine they sync as expected. mmmmmm

EDIT: I can reliably reproduce the bug.

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32. Geoff the kiwi,

Sep 7, 2012 5:56 PM in reply to Geoff the kiwi

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It seems to be only with your file included though.
Can you link me anothercouple of files in NEF and at least one from each camera please.

EDIT: No I can reproduce with VC's of my own files only in a collection!!

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33. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 8, 2012 12:43 AM in reply to ssprengel

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After some additional testing I can say it is definitely not the "make warmer" which screws the files.
It is the "Custom WB" which is automatically applied to the files prior to that.

- SELECT 50 files
- CLICK "Custom WB"
Result:
Some files don't change from the "as shot" value, but most get 5001 / +10

- RESET faulty files
- SELECT a single one of them
- CLICK "Custom WB"
Result:
WB doesn't change. Just like it is supposed to be.

That is what happens in 9 of 10 runs.
Every once in a while even the single file gets 5001 / +10 but clearly the "multi select" seems to aggravate LR even more.

@geoff
I send you 10 files.
5 D700, 5 D300s

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34. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 8, 2012 1:52 AM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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I just reinstalled LR3.6 again on my laptop. (So it doesn't interfere in any way on my main machine)

- Imported all files without xmps
- Make warmer on all of them
Result: Perfectly fine. Every single file is just a little warmer.

I will reimport them in LR4 now.

It is a workaround for now but I don't know if I can be really happy about that...

In my opinion Adobe really screwed up with LR4!
It took so many RCs and releases (after the Final, mind you!) for it to become halfway reliable and now this again.

I won't even begin to start with the bad performance...

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35. Geoff the kiwi,

Sep 8, 2012 3:01 AM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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Thanks for the files Felix. Yes it's weird bug, I'll place a report to the team with the info we have so far and link them this thread.
BTW our time here is UTC +12 hours so I can be a bit random on being online or asleep!

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36. FotoFelix.net,

Sep 8, 2012 3:08 AM in reply to Geoff the kiwi

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Thank you so much Geoff and you other guys, too.

I honestly appreciate all your suggestions and your effort!

Best regards,
Felix

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37. mguenther_lw,

Oct 18, 2012 8:50 AM in reply to FotoFelix.net

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I'm experiencing the exact same issue. I had a hard copy of LR4 and everything worked fine, then downloaded the Creative Cloud version, and I'm now getting the +10 tint on random images.

Also, in contrast, I'm working on a Mac editing CR2 files, so I'm sensing the problem isn't camera or platform specific.

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38. Geoff the kiwi,

Oct 18, 2012 10:41 AM in reply to mguenther_lw

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This bug has been fiexd in Lr4.2 so check the build number from your Help>System Info menu which should read like this at the top:
"Lightroom version: 4.2 [850741]" I suspect that the Creative Cloud version you have is either not correct somehow.
D'load the latest version from Adobe .com which will work with your CC subscription.

mguenther_lw wrote:

I'm experiencing the exact same issue. I had a hard copy of LR4 and everything worked fine, then downloaded the Creative Cloud version, and I'm now getting the +10 tint on random images.

Also, in contrast, I'm working on a Mac editing CR2 files, so I'm sensing the problem isn't camera or platform specific.

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39. FotoFelix.net,

Oct 18, 2012 11:03 AM in reply to Geoff the kiwi

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Hey Geoff,

of course the first thing I checked when 4.2 was released, was the changelog but it did unfortunately not state anything about this nasty bug.
So I looked for myself and luckily could not replicate the bug anymore, but still without an official statement I wasn't sure about it.

Would you be so kind to tell me if your informations are clear on this one as being fixed with 4.2 or if it was just an assumption of yours?

Thanks a lot,
Felix

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