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Tostie14
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Issues with Size of FLV VBR 2-pass vs 1-pass Encoding in CS6

Jun 19, 2012 10:34 AM

Tags: #encoder #vbr #premiere_pro_6.0 #2_pass

Hey Everyone,

 

I've been doing some testing on various systems (using either Windows 7 or Windows 8 Consumer Preview) using Premiere Pro CS6 as well as Media Encoder 6 and I've noticed that encoding FLV files using VBR 2-pass encoding produces a file that is significantly larger than the same source file encoded using just a VBR 1-pass.

 

For example, one test that I ran used 10 seconds of DVCPRO HD 720P 29.97 footage as source material. I exported all clips exported as .flv, 960x540 square pixels, 29.97 fps, 1000 kbps and everything else left at default settings.

 

Here were my results:

 

Size of Export via Premiere Pro CS5 VBR 1pass: 1.564 MB

Size of Export via Premiere Pro CS5 VBR 2pass: 1.618 MB

Size of Export via Premiere Pro CS6 VBR 1pass: 1.450 MB

Size of Export via Premiere Pro CS6 VBR 2pass: 3.622 MB

 

Eric Addison of 100 Acre Films also ran a similar test on his system and got these results:

Encoding 10 secs of a P2 AVC-I 1280x720, 29.97 clip using the same settings as above to FLV

Premiere CS6 Export VBR 2 pass – 2.87 MB

Premiere CS6  Export VBR 1 pass – 1.55 MB

AME 6 Export VBR 2 Pass – 2.85 MB

 

I've tested this out with short clips, ~3 min sequences, raw clips, and clips with lots of effects, and I continue to get consistent results with the VBR 2-pass file being anywhere from 30% up to 300% larger than the same clip encoded using just 1-pass encoding. Again, this doesn't occur using Premiere Pro CS5 or 5.5 (or AME 5), so it appears to be just an issue within CS6.

 

Would anyone else be willing to run a similar test using their system and own source files and post your results in this thread to determine if this is a system-wide issue or just flukes?

 

Thanks!

Kevin Tostado

Tostie Productions

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 20, 2012 7:47 PM   in reply to Tostie14

    I ran a short test and did see a significant size difference.

     
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    Jun 22, 2012 7:59 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    I have the same problem and I was using flash every day ... I really need a solution soon otherwise I would have no choice but to back down to CS5 (which I do not want) ... I am a little sad to pay dearly for that

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 22, 2012 8:04 AM   in reply to Tostie14

    I concur:

     

    - The size of exported FLVs (especially 2-pass encoding) is no longer adequately estimated. Ouput file is up to wtice the size of estmation.

    - The quality of FLVs deteriorated significantly, compared to same exports in CS5.5

     

    In other words to match the qulity of a CS5.5 export a CS6 FLV has to be 2-3 times larger in size. It's completely unacceptable and ruining for bandwith on our high-traffic server.

     

    Pleaqse resolve this ASAP!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 22, 2012 8:12 AM   in reply to latama_keyser_soze

    I'm running OSX 10.7.4 and am experiencing the exact same results, FLV VBR 2pass encoding is roughly 2-3 time larger.  If you haven't already filed a bug report please do so.

     

    https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 26, 2012 9:17 AM   in reply to Tostie14

    Submitted the bug report as well. I wonder how fast will Adobe fix this issue, it's a major productivity flaw.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 6, 2012 8:44 AM   in reply to Tostie14

    still no answer ?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 7:43 AM   in reply to Tostie14

    Submitted a bug report as well ... 2 month now !

     


     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 9:19 AM   in reply to Verglas

    Complete incompetence on behalf Adobe. We have the purchase of hundreds of CS6 licences pending because of this issue.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 11:08 AM   in reply to latama_keyser_soze

    I understand frustration when things don't work the way you want, but I'm having a hard time seeing this as that big an issue.  For starters, no one delivers FLV anymore.  It's all H.264 these days, typically in an M4V or F4V or MP4 container.  FLV is passe.  Second, 1 pass works just fine, and no one is going to see any difference between 1 pass and 2.  Third, there are some much more serious bugs in PP right now.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 11:28 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    I respect your point of view, but due to certain industry requirements we are bound to these standards and unfortunately 1 pass quality or any other file format is not an option, at least for now. An industry with an output in the vivinity of hundreds of thousands video clips daily is not as flexible as individual designers. It's the same as to suggest that everyone should switch to electric cars or stop using faxes, because those are passe

     

    In any case 2 months to fix a minor bug is unacceptable by any standards.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 11:37 AM   in reply to latama_keyser_soze

    If for some odd reason you do need to deliver FLV and just can't change that, I go back to the fact that no one is likely to see any difference between 1 and 2 passes.

     

    But, even if the pixel peepers do see some minute improvement from 2 pass, the files may be larger, but they do still work.  Delivery can still be made.

     

    And, if for some reason the larger file sizes are a show stopper, you can always export out a lossless and use some other software to create the FLV version.

     

    I'll end with the fact that there are folks out there who simply cannot use Premiere Pro at all because of the media they work with (XDCAM, Canon MXF, AVCHD).  Those are far more serious bugs, real showstoppers for a lot of folks.  I would hope Adobe is putting their attention on those issues first.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 11:43 AM   in reply to latama_keyser_soze

    If you have time, see if exporting to H.264 or MPEG2 using VBR 2-pass also messes up the file sizes based on your target bit rate.  Both Pr and Sorenson Squeeze use the MainConcept MPEG2 and H.264 encoders, and Squeeze has the same issue -- namely, that if you give the encoder a max bit rate, it will adjust the target bit rate upward towards that max bit rate as it sees fit.

     

    Squeeze lets you overcome this issue by giving you a Constrain File Size check box. Pr (as of CS5.5) does not.

     

    Jeff

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 12:09 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    I'm very amused to see how other's problems are more serious than ours. Other isssues and bugs have also been reported by me and my colleagues, but this is not a general thread, but a very specific one.

     

    In the end as customers who pay for a tremendous amount of licenses we would simply like to see consitency with the previous versions of the product, where encoding and size estimation was functioning properly. The're was no change in technology, same codecs are being used for ages. This is a software malfunction which has to be fixed, and not a quest for the users to seek out solutions. Certainly we have figured the way around this issue, but it costs our company time... so much for an upgrade.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 12:27 PM   in reply to latama_keyser_soze

    latama_keyser_soze wrote:

     

    I'm very amused to see how other's problems are more serious than ours. Other isssues and bugs have also been reported by me and my colleagues, but this is not a general thread, but a very specific one.

     

    In the end as customers who pay for a tremendous amount of licenses we would simply like to see consitency with the previous versions of the product, where encoding and size estimation was functioning properly. The're was no change in technology, same codecs are being used for ages. This is a software malfunction which has to be fixed, and not a quest for the users to seek out solutions. Certainly we have figured the way around this issue, but it costs our company time... so much for an upgrade.

    Actually, codecs evolve all the time.  The STANDARDS tend to be static, but the codecs themselves have changed.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 12:45 PM   in reply to Greg Baber

    I find this to be arguing for the sake of arguing. Adobe's settings contain On2 VP6 codec as the only option for FLV encoding, a codec originated in 2003, and since then I believe was succeeded by VP7 and 8, yet Adobe seems to stay with version 6, I honestly don't care if they evolved it. Production of the unit of the same quality as before with twice the size is in no sence an evolution. Standards are standards for a reason, try arguing with DMV that your 4x6 photo is still suitable for the license 'cause it's still you.

     

    We simply ask the standards to be upheld!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 12:58 PM   in reply to latama_keyser_soze

    This discussion is getting very heated - let me clarify something.  I am looking into this situation to see what is happening with your bug report.  I just wanted to let you know that codecs and the mechanisms that are used to apply codecs do change, like all software. 

     

    Now, bug reports frequently do not have an immediate fix.  This may be fixed in a upcoming update, or it may be something that the engineers could not resolve.  We do listen to our customers, as you can tell by the fact I am in here trying to help out. 

     

    I will look into your bug report, and I will make sure that the engineers are either working on it or let them know that our customers are still being impacted by it.

     

    What you can do for now is to keep your software up to date.  Until then, look at the suggested workarounds that Jim provided.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 22, 2012 1:15 PM   in reply to Greg Baber

    Even if the argument is heated, I assure you it's a friendly kind of heat

     

    Since it all worked perfectly in CS5 and 5.5 it only seemed to us to be a matter of a glitch not a major engeneering concern. We are looking forward to it's eventual resolution and thank you for all your work.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 27, 2012 1:01 PM   in reply to Tostie14

    I'm having the same issue over here. Would love an update from the guys at Adobe, please.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 27, 2012 1:09 PM   in reply to ChristieTech

    I would love to have an update for you. 

     

    It has been reported.  Until then, I still recommend using 1-pass if the file size is too large.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 2, 2012 7:56 AM   in reply to Greg Baber

    Just checking if there's any progress on this?

     

    We're having a similar problem, I just made a bug report. -

     

    Concise problem statement:

    With CS6, rendering Flash Video files using AME creates files that are unuseable.  They have bad flickering, and look like files that have been encoded with half the bitrate.  This happens on all of our cs6 workstations, and has been happening since we moved to cs6.  Our workaround is to render the file to a 30mbps H264 file, then open cs5.5 media encoder and transcode it to flash, where it renders them perfectly, as it used to!  This is happening on projects where there have been no changes at all between cs5.5 and cs6 - we can render exactly the same timeline out of premiere pro in cs5.5 and it looks fine, then in cs6 it looks like crap.

    Steps to reproduce bug:

    Render an on2 vp6 flash video out of premiere pro.

    Results:

    Any parts of the video with gradients or hard colour contrast will look like crap, either blocky or blurry, like it's been encoded at a super low bitrate.

    Expected results:

    This is happening on all sorts of projects - stuff with titles generated in premiere pro, stuff with PNG files in it, stuff with sony EX1 footage, with segments of uncompressed video rendered in after effects,...  basically everything.

     

     

    Since filing the bug report, I've read this thread and worked out that like you guys it does only happen for us with 2 pass encoding.  So at least now we have a better workaround than transcoding, we can just export in 1 pass.  I don't like having to do that.  Yes, probably loads of people can't tell the difference between 1 and 2 pass and blah blah blah other codecs are better, we all know that!  We have to use on2 VP6, for lots of annoying reasons, one big one being that we have a lot of corporate clients who put our videos on their intranet, and don't let their staff update their media players, browsers, OS's etc. - so the only video they can reliably use for everyone is an on2 VP6 file.  Anyway, would be great to have a fix, we're only just making back all the time we lost from having to transcode all our Sony EX1 footage that premiere pro cs6 couldn't deal with (that tearing issue is now fixed, thank f*ck).  I doubt I'm going to be able to justify spending loads of money on upgrading to cs7 when it comes out after all the bugs we've had to deal with in this one.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 15, 2013 11:24 PM   in reply to Tostie14

    I beleive ON24 only allows flv at this time. This BUG is terrible. What a lame excuse for an upgrade. Upgrades with gaping holes like this are passé. Premiere needs some heat. In 3years this kind of software will only be useful at these prices if the upgrades are super reliable. We aren't your beta group are we? Sink or swim, Adobe--time to behave like a primetime player and less like a crass shark with money.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 20, 2013 5:49 AM   in reply to Tostie14

    As of April 20, 2013, still having this problem. No fix by Adobe. I'm running the Cloud version of CS6, so have the very latest version.

     

    And yes, I'm stuck delivering a FLV due to client requirements.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 21, 2013 8:06 AM   in reply to Dan Preston NJ

    Same settings but using 1-pass results in the correct file size at the specified data rate. It's clearly a fundamental bug in the 2-pass calculation, and disturbing that there's been no fix since this thread began ten months ago. I did, BTW, submit a bug report to Adobe.

     
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    Apr 21, 2013 8:09 AM   in reply to Greg Baber

    Any news on fixing this bug? Thanks.

     
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    Apr 21, 2013 9:22 AM   in reply to Dan Preston NJ

    News typically comes only when or just before it's released.  I've not heard anything about this.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 14, 2013 4:37 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Adobe, we're just a few days shy of a year on this thread and this still hasn't been fixed?  I was going to sign up for the creative cloud on Monday when the new updates are dropping, but now I’m having reservations. 

     

    You want professionals to lease your newest software, but yet when you break something that was working fine in a previous version you might not get around to fixing it for a year?  Where does that leave me in the cloud? I doubt I could just revert to a previous version... 

     

    Totally unacceptable response to this bug.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 9, 2013 8:37 AM   in reply to Greg Baber

    Apparently our Flash developers need FLVs (to turn into SWFs which are embedded in PowerPoint) for a particular set of projects, so I'm stuck with using FLVs too.

     

    This bug is an issue for us too. I'm having to render our already edited projects from CS6 into an intermediate file and then use CS5.5 to create the FLV. Not cool, guys.

     

    I've filed a bug report. (Well, I tried, but I'm not sure it went through, the web page is just sitting there spinning at me.

     
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