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BD menu with transitions between pages?

Aug 29, 2012 9:48 AM

Tags: #transition #pages #blu-ray #between

Hello,

 

Can someone tell me if A) it is possible to have a transition video as I navigate from one page to another in a multiple page menu. and B) If it is posible to have a transition video between pages, is there some documentation somewhere that would help guide me through the creation process?

 

For example, Let's say I have a 21 second video for my menus. On page one I want the video to loop from the 5 second point to the 10 second point. Then if I select page 2 the video should play from 10 seconds to 11 seconds and then loop from 11 seconds to 21 seconds. If I select the first page Encore would play the video from 21 seconds to 22 seconds then loop from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.

 

If this is possible, or if there is a different way to accomplish this please let me know.

 

Thanks,

Lou

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 29, 2012 12:55 PM   in reply to CouldntGuessAnotherName

    Hi Lou,

    This sounds like a complicated way to do transitions.

    I recommend taking your video and exporting it into individual segments and saving them as .avi or another video format appropriate for your quality settings. Just get out the ol chopping block and cut your menu video at all the transition points so that you have each as a seperate piece. According to what you wrote above, this means that you'll have 4 individual video clips for menu animations.

     

    1. looping menu animation for page 1
    2. looping menu animation for page 2
    3. page 1 transition
    4. page 2 transition

     

    Keep in mind that if your transition between pages is the same, you only need one transition video.

     

    Once you've done that it's a piece of cake to do transitions.  When you create the buttons that link from page to page, you should see a tab in your button properties panel that says "Transition".

    Link each page button to the correct transition videos you made and everything should play smoothly. Of course, this all depends on you cutting the video so that your motion menus match the beginning/end of the transitions. ^_^

     

    Hope that helps!

     
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    Aug 29, 2012 3:57 PM   in reply to Dragonspear

    also, keep in mind that to do menu transition for blu-ray with encore there is a 2 second track gap (black screen pause) between all assets, so it would be: menu *pause* transition *pause* menu *pause* movie playing. so it won't be as smooth as doing it on dvd

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 29, 2012 5:22 PM   in reply to Keith_Clark

    ...I've never had this problem Andy. And I've never seen this problem on commercual blu-ray transitions either.  The one thing I noticed about commercial blu-ray menus is that they seem to have FLAWLESS transitions! (i.e. no pause or delay between loops or transitions) ...this may, however be different depending on who made the menus, what player is being used, etc.  ...but now you've got me curious, so I'm going to do a few tests.  If I have the same horrible black transitions, I'll post back here my findings.

     

    Lou, if you find that my suggestion above doesn't work for some reason, please let us know. ^_^

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 29, 2012 6:01 PM   in reply to Dragonspear

    SnJK wrote:

     

    ...I've never had this problem Andy. And I've never seen this problem on commercual blu-ray transitions either. 

    thats because the movie houses use Scenarist and Blu-Print do author blu-ray, not encore. encore has a bug (i call it a bug) that for blu-ray it adds a gap between titles. its especially infuriating to do menu trasnitions because the gap breaks the transition. only on encore, only on blu-ray. DVDs work flawlessly

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 29, 2012 6:09 PM   in reply to Keith_Clark

    Hmmm. Good to know. Thanks for the heads-up Andy. I'm going to make an easy demo project to check this out for myself.  This is good stuff to know before I spend hours and hours making slick transitions that can't be used. ha!  If it is a problem, do you know if it exists for CS6...and if so, have you reported it?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 29, 2012 6:35 PM   in reply to Dragonspear

    yup. still there. i was on the En CS6 pre-release program and it was there at the last pre-release build. its not adobe's fault perse` its just a limitation of the sonic authorcore which is what encore uses under the hood. the only way i've heard can be fixed, is to dump it and build a BR app from the ground up (much like going from audition 3 to audition cs5.5)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 29, 2012 9:17 PM   in reply to CouldntGuessAnotherName

    CouldntGuessAnotherName wrote:

     

    There is some information regarding the problem here http://www.precomposed.com/blog/2011/01/encore-blu-ray-loop-point-fix/ According to Valentin Munteanu the problem still exists in Encore version 6.01.

    wow! thanks for the heads up on that link. Applegate comes in quite frequently talking about their mac offering, but alot of us don't use mac. so kudos on that info!

    CouldntGuessAnotherName wrote:

    Which is why I thought maybe I needed to look at transitions between pages.

    not possible. the multi-page menu is all 1 self contained psd file. no way to add anything to that because its all 1 self contained psd file. :-/

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 29, 2012 10:42 PM   in reply to Keith_Clark

    not possible. the multi-page menu is all 1 self contained psd file. no way to add anything to that because its all 1 self contained psd file. :-/

    Take another look at that. While it is one psd, the button from one page to another is still a link, and the button has a transition option in properties, I have not tried it (and still the pause issue), but see if it is an option.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 29, 2012 10:45 PM   in reply to Stan Jones

    interesting. never thought about it in that light. i that would be too easy of a fix though, right? i may explore this further my next project...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 30, 2012 6:01 PM   in reply to CouldntGuessAnotherName

    I'm not sure what you mean. A transition must be a video asset. The button from one page of the menu links to another button on another page.

     

    I assume it will have the same pause problem, but we'll see. .

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 31, 2012 6:40 AM   in reply to Keith_Clark

    I use transitions between all my motion menus and do not see a 2 second black video pause when going from menu A to B or from B to A. (I always use the Button Transition feature.)

     

    Could it be that i don't see it because i use motion menues and not static menues, ie .m4v as background video instead of .psd only backgrounds?

     

    /Roger

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 31, 2012 7:36 AM   in reply to CouldntGuessAnotherName

    Lou, just to confirm, you are burning a disk to check the pause?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 31, 2012 8:47 AM   in reply to CouldntGuessAnotherName

    CouldntGuessAnotherName wrote:

     

    Stan, Yes I have a large assortment of coasters ;o)

    get some REs. i have 1 bd-re and 1 bd-re dl that i use to preview everything on BD. stuff's too expensive to mess up.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 1, 2012 6:34 AM   in reply to CouldntGuessAnotherName

    "Just to be clear the pause is on blu-ray disks only not DVDs."

     

    I meant Blu-ray menus. I do not see any black video when using Button Transitions on Blu-ray menus.

     

    /Roger

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 1, 2012 7:52 AM   in reply to CouldntGuessAnotherName

    as far as i've seen, it doesnt even have to be menus. i took a 5 minute video of me talking, cut it into 4 pieces in PrPro, exported each chunk seperately, imported each into encore as its own timeline, had the end action of each timeline start the next video, burned to bluray, put it in the sony bluray player in the living room, and while i'm talking. it goes black for 2 second, then starts the next chunk. not even with the menus. the only way i can get a seamless anything is with mult-page menu, and thats it.

     

    so i am too curious what this workflow is, because i have yet to see anyone else on the forum who has gotten around this limitation.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 1, 2012 9:57 AM   in reply to CouldntGuessAnotherName

    Download and burn this .iso file and see if it works: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19880923/BD_Menu.iso

     

    It is a very simple Main Menu with link to a short movie and a Chapter Menu. From the Chapter Menu you can go back to the Main Menu. Button Transitions is used on every button. Created in encore CS6.

     

    This one works for me, so if you see black video it is your player. (Or Encore plus older players?) Report back with your results.

     

    /Roger

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 1, 2012 10:51 AM   in reply to Averdahl

    Very clever test, Roger. What player are you using? A few days before I can add a test. A great way to narrow down the issues.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 1, 2012 1:17 PM   in reply to Stan Jones

    i'll test it when i get home. anctious to see...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 1, 2012 5:36 PM   in reply to Averdahl

    well holy crap. how did you do that? lol i can't seem to get that effect to work. and have been trying since cs4. :-/

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 2, 2012 5:39 AM   in reply to Keith_Clark

    Hi all,

     

    Here are hopefully some answers to your questions to me:

     

    I attached the Encore test project and it's assets and the After Effects project that created the assets: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19880923/BD_Menu_Test.zip

     

    Re-link to assets when/if promted.

     

    The workflow i use is:

    1. Create motion menues in After Effects.

    2. Render out as H.264 Blu-ray/MPEG2 Blu-ray.*

    3. Create Button Highlights in Photoshop using one frame from the menu as a placeholder.

    4. When done, delete the placeholder. The final .psd are "highlights-only".

    5. Create a new project in Encore.

    6. File > Import As > Menu to import *all* menues in one go.

    7. File > Import As > Asset to import *all* motion background/button transitions in one go.

    8. File > Import As > Timeline to import movie as Timeline/s.

    9. Double click on each menu and link it to it's backgrond video using the Motion tab.**

    10. Link each button to the Timeline/s or Menu/s.

    11. Set the correct video clip for each Button Transition using the Transition tab.

    12. Ctrl+Alt+Spacebar to preview project.***

    13. Ctrl+Shift+L to Check Project.

    14. Fix any issues reported or viewed during #12 and #13.

    15. Build an .iso.

    16. Burn the .iso with ImgBurn.

     

    * Most of the times i render out to QuickTime Animation and use Adobe Media Encoder to transcode the assets.

    ** In Encore, delete both buttons manually from "00_Intro.psd".

    *** Yes, the preview in Encore is crappy and i see black video all the time when using Button Transitions.

     

    All files in this project is transcoded in Adobe Media Encoder using the x264 Pro BD plug-in. (Using the bundled H.264 Blu-ray or MPEG2 Blu-ray gives me the same results, iow no black video.)

     

    The menues do loop, but does not use any specified Loop Point in Encore.

     

    That's all i do and i don't think i have a special recipe. One thing i always do is to import .psd first, Assets second and Timelines third. This did matter when it came to motion menues in Encore 1.0 or 1.5 and i still use that recipe when it comes to import.

     

    I see the same good results with 1080i25, 720p50 and 1080p24 (23.976). (The .iso and project i uploaded is 24.0 fps.)

     

    And, i do never ever create a new Encore project and import assets to test things and then delete stuff/timelines and import the new assets in that project when they are done. I only jump into Encore and start to import things when *everything* is ready to go. I do also never use Encore for transcoding, i only bring in transcoded assets that are ready to go. Deleting and re-importing other assets was (is?) a good recipe for disaster in Encore. Deleting Timelines and create new ones was a nightmare.

     

    This is what i use:

    Player: Oppo BDP-93EU

    Media: Verbatim BD-R (Verbatim #43712)

    BD-burner: HP BD-RE BH30L (It came with the HP Z800)

     

    I have had it reported to me only once that one person had the same issues some of you have, iow pauses and black video with BD-disc's i created. I guess i have not made too many BD discs yet. I don't know what BD-player he used. It was approx one year ago. I have tested my BD disc's in Oppo/NAD/Sony/Philips players and the disc's has had no problems. All players was new players from 2011-2012. I'm afraid i don't remember the exact models of the players.

     

    It do happens from time to time that i do see black video, but when looking closer it is me that has actually rendered out the black frame from After Effects. So it is easy to do it wrong, so importing the clips in Premiere Pro and scrub the clips looking for black video in the end of the clips is a good habit to rule out the clips.

     

    But, without a doubt this is an issue that must be fixed in Encore so all BD players can be used with no issues.

     

    Please send in a Bug Report or Feature Request to Adobe here: https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

     

    I think sending a Feature Request is the best way to go.

     

    /Roger

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 10, 2012 9:08 PM   in reply to Averdahl

    ok, i see the one thing i was not doing is using "trasnition" tab. i would just do end actions be the start of the next menu/trasnition/whatever. now my question is this. i'm not a HUGE fan of cerating motion menus. i mean, if done right they look great, but i usually prefer something more clean and minimalist. but what i would like to do is have a intro that has the main menu pieces coming in, then your at the main menu which is a static multipage .psd. would that be possible to do with this workflow? a seamless transition from an intro video to a static .psd menu? because there is no "transition" from a timeline, is there? 

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 11, 2012 9:47 AM   in reply to Keith_Clark

    Andy,

     

    I have not tried that so i don't know how it work. If the transitions are 1080i i asume that it can look not-so-good. I prefer intros/transitions and just plain static backgrounds as well but do always do them as motion menus, iow the main/chapter menu is a video background. I do it this way beacuse if i want to change anything i only have to change it at one (1) place in AE instead of in AE and Photoshop. The risk is to big to miss one change and thus going crazy because i loose time!

     

    And, when doing menues for BD i do always do them in 24p even if the feature is 1080i or 720p50. Graphic/text looks really bad if using 1080i menues compared to the very same graphic/text in a 24p menu.

     

    No, there is no transition from a timeline. Avoid using timelines as transitions. It takes time to explain, but play the main timeline and select next chapter rapidly on a DVD/BD-disc you have used that technique on and you will probably see "random" transitions here and there. How often depends on when you created the timeline, in what order you created them. All timelines has an internal number, the first you create is number 0, the second is number 1, etc. (If i remeber correctly the numbering starts from 0 and not 1.)

     

    /Roger

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 11, 2012 11:24 AM   in reply to Averdahl

    yeah, i already explained it briefly on the PrPro board, but for this menu i'm working on, i'm using some footage from an old video,  so the video assets i am using in the intro is 480i30 and i have that imbedded in the 1080 menu. so to keep everything as happy as possible, for this project i opted for 1080i30 intro assett, to avoid any type of problems from conversions and such. i went frame by frame of the m4v assets, and it looks beautiful

     

    now to get it to seamlessly transition. i think i just brainstormed a  way to fake it.... i'll have to check it later on...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 11, 2012 12:18 PM   in reply to Keith_Clark

    Andy,

    I've done something similar to what you're referring to. It can be done.  You can create your motion gfx and set it to "first play" or put it last in the series of videos you "first play" before linking to the main DVD menu screen.  Once your motion gfx plays it will go straight to your still image menu.  Of course, you have to make sure the end frame of the video is the exact same as the still .psd page.  ...the easiest way to do that is just take a still frame of the last frame of your video and use that as your .psd background.

     

    This worked quite well for me.  The only drawback was that you won't have seamless audio.  If your video has audio, you need to fade it out before the video ends...otherwise you'll have a "jump" in your audio when it switches to the .psd menu.  I usually just fade the audio, and then have the menu audio fade in and out at the proper loop points.

     

    However, like Averdahl said...if you find you have to really change your menu .psd look...you'll likely have to go and export a whole new motion gfx.  You could always just extend the tail of your motion gfx and create the loop point to start at the place you normally would have put your .psd menu. ....it might make things more fluid for you.  In the end though, if you're satisfied with your motion intro, then you haven't anything to worry about.

     

    Cheers^_^

     

    ps. make sure your intro is non-interlaced (progressive) for the smoothest transition to the .psd menu!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 11, 2012 1:23 PM   in reply to Dragonspear

    Dragonspear wrote:

     

    Andy,

    I've done something similar to what you're referring to. It can be done.  You can create your motion gfx and set it to "first play" or put it last in the series of videos you "first play" before linking to the main DVD menu screen.  Once your motion gfx plays it will go straight to your still image menu.  Of course, you have to make sure the end frame of the video is the exact same as the still .psd page.  ...the easiest way to do that is just take a still frame of the last frame of your video and use that as your .psd background.

     

    This worked quite well for me.  The only drawback was that you won't have seamless audio.  If your video has audio, you need to fade it out before the video ends...otherwise you'll have a "jump" in your audio when it switches to the .psd menu.  I usually just fade the audio, and then have the menu audio fade in and out at the proper loop points.

     

    However, like Averdahl said...if you find you have to really change your menu .psd look...you'll likely have to go and export a whole new motion gfx.  You could always just extend the tail of your motion gfx and create the loop point to start at the place you normally would have put your .psd menu. ....it might make things more fluid for you.  In the end though, if you're satisfied with your motion intro, then you haven't anything to worry about.

     

    Cheers^_^

    [im sorry i highjacked this thread, but hopefully the OP can get some good info out of the conversation]

    oh i've done this many times with DVD.... blu-ray... it wants to be difficult to do it *that* way. it wants to add a black pause after the transitions i have done, the copy i got from roger came out perfect. luckily, the intro i am doing for this disc fades out to silence with the audio, and i have a new audio that starts for the multipage menu nav. i may set up a dup menu for the main menu which just has 2 links on it (play, and chapters), and have that go to the chapters menu with a transition, or something else similar.... and have the chapters menu be the multipage with the audio in the background.  i dunno... i have something in mind.

     

    i don't ever work with motion menus, i prefer to do dupes. because i feel like i can have more control over it, and deliver almost a BD-j like experience on DVD (which was what i started on before i got into authoring blu-ray 2 years ago). so a couple of questions...

     

    i'm invisioning having the intro fade to the main menu which is 2 links, and play will play the main feature, end activity will return back to the second main menu, which is a multipage menu with that is the same as the first menu, with the chapters imbedded. clicking on chapters would take you to page 2 of the multipage menu which has an audio background.

     

    here's what i'm not quite sure how to pull off... if i do the motion menu for that very first menu instead, what if the end user is watching it and the wife sits on the remote, arent the menu buttons still active from the get go? would it then jump to whatever the button got sat on does (without the 'visual buttons' there)? i'm just bot sure i quite understand motion menus (hence, i avoid them) or is that what delay is for? it delays the highlights AND the activity until that point? (i just undestood it to delay the highlights) if it will delay the highlights AND the activity... then i can be in business. just imbed that first menu 'page' as the end of my intro, and set up the other menu as the actual menu navigations, and add a quick like 15 second background audio to loop back to the loop point, of when the trasnition video portion stopped, and the menu portion began, and i'll be golden.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 17, 2012 9:43 PM   in reply to CouldntGuessAnotherName

    CouldntGuessAnotherName wrote:

     

    Andy Ramone wrote:

     

    yup. still there. i was on the En CS6 pre-release program and it was there at the last pre-release build. its not adobe's fault perse` its just a limitation of the sonic authorcore which is what encore uses under the hood. the only way i've heard can be fixed, is to dump it and build a BR app from the ground up (much like going from audition 3 to audition cs5.5)

    I respectfully disagree with you. This annoying pause is Adobe's fault. Obviously Sonic has the ability to create seamless transitions however Adobe is accepting of a substandard solution from Sonic that pauses; I suspect one reason. BIG $$$. I've never seen an invoice for Scenarist but I beleive the price is approximately 10x the price of Adobe Production Permium. If Adobe offered a BD authoring solution capable of the same results as Scenarist... who would purchase Scenarist?

     

    I completely agree with this complaint.  The problem has been complained about for years, and with every new version, Adobe has taken in the bug requests, alluded to fixing it, and never did.  They feign ignorance, like "oh my gosh, we'll have to look into that!" but it's elementary coding and they simply don't care.

     

    The most disturbing part is that users/consumers/reviewers defend Adobe ceaselessly even for behavior like this.  In short, Encore's handling of motion menus might as well not even exist.  It's laughable and it performs worse than cheap competitors like TMPGEnc.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 18, 2012 10:17 AM   in reply to hpmoon

    It sure would be nice if an Adobe Rep. would chime in here. I've never had the "black pause of death" issue personally...but there certainly seems to be plenty that have, and still are.

     

    I, for one, would like to nail down the cause of the problem. ...and if that means reprogramming something from the ground up (which I find hard to believe) then I think Adobe should bite the bullet and do it.

     

    At the very least, if you can't make a service/function that works, you should either fix it, or remove it from your software. I'd just be happy knowing what we need to do to fix the issue, and I'd be willing to be part of a team that was put through some tests to figure out the cause.

     

    Nobody that likes to ride wants to buy a dead horse.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 18, 2012 10:40 AM   in reply to Dragonspear

    Dragonspear wrote:

     

    It sure would be nice if an Adobe Rep. would chime in here. I've never had the "black pause of death" issue personally...but there certainly seems to be plenty that have, and still are.

     

    I, for one, would like to nail down the cause of the problem. ...and if that means reprogramming something from the ground up (which I find hard to believe) then I think Adobe should bite the bullet and do it.

     

    At the very least, if you can't make a service/function that works, you should either fix it, or remove it from your software. I'd just be happy knowing what we need to do to fix the issue, and I'd be willing to be part of a team that was put through some tests to figure out the cause.

     

    Nobody that likes to ride wants to buy a dead horse.

    This link, mentioned at the top of this discussion, is key:

     

    http://www.precomposed.com/blog/2011/01/encore-blu-ray-loop-point-fix/

     

    It explains that the fix would be elementary, and there's no excuse.  All the same, they haven't implemented a universal fix as a third party, and it's been over a year since that January 2011 post.  They assert that they were in discussions with Adobe directly at that time, which evidently resulted in no action on Adobe's part.

     

    The most revealing part of that post is the way they describe this bug as a "feature request" from Adobe's perspective.  Hilarious.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 26, 2013 12:14 PM   in reply to Averdahl

    Most of the issue has to do with seek time on the BD player. Using a small project probably wont be an effective test because all of the assets are close together on the disk thus relatively no seek time

     
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  • FocusPulling (.com)
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    May 9, 2013
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 26, 2013 12:18 PM   in reply to emailcraigs

    emailcraigs wrote:

     

    Most of the issue has to do with seek time on the BD player. Using a small project probably wont be an effective test because all of the assets are close together on the disk thus relatively no seek time

     

    That is an extremely ignorant conclusion, not only to the findings in this long discussion, but also to the reality that commercially mastered Blu-Rays almost never have this gap.  So basically, you just made something up.

     
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