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narratorDE
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Dear Adobe Programmers

Nov 15, 2012 6:38 AM

Has anyone a view on this matter?

I am not very hopeful after experiencing the incredible number of walls that need to be climbed to find anyone who could may be listen

Thanks anyway

Wihlem

 

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 6:45 AM   in reply to narratorDE

    narratorDE wrote:

     

    Has anyone a view on this matter?

    I am not very hopeful after experiencing the incredible number of walls that need to be climbed to find anyone who could may be listen

    Thanks anyway

    Wihlem

     

    Perhaps if you told us what the problem is we could help you...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 6:50 AM   in reply to narratorDE

    Huh? What exactly are you referring to?

     

    Bob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 7:03 AM   in reply to narratorDE

    What matter and what walls that need to be climbed?

     

                 - Dov

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 1:05 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    First, we're ordinary users, like you, not engineers, so keep that in mind. Second, attachemtns don't work here on the forum, so if you need to show us something you must either include it directly in a post or provide a link to it.

     

    InDesign should "place" your PDF file as graphical images, essentially, of the pages in the PDF. There should be no directly editable objects, and I'm not entirely sure that things like annotations would be imported. Perhaps you weren't really placing the PDF?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 1:21 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    Would you be willing to try again? Unless there's something really differnt about PDF from Acrobat XI that I don't know about, there should be no way that PDF would place as text of any sort.

     

    Which version of ID are you using? What OS?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 1:27 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    I'd surely be interested in what actually happened to you there, but I'm reasonably certain there is something, (perhaps a number of things), you've left out. Your description doesn't fit any placing of a PDF in InDesign, gone right or gone wrong, that I've ever seen. As Peter alludes, placing a PDF results in each page entering as a single, framed element. Unformatted, disjointed text or any form of deconstruction simply doesn't happen. So it's only logical to assume the file you placed was something other than your PDF. Perhaps it was a different format that you exported from Acrobat...(?) I can only guess.

     

    I used Adobe Acrobat XI to create a document

     

    From scratch? Engaging in the make-up of a document in Acrobat, then moving it into InDesign is somewhat the reverse of typical workflow. Perhaps if you could offer more detail as to how you work with these applications, it would help us gain an understanding of your objectives and maybe offer solutions.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 1:30 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    narratorDE,

     

    On behalf of Adobe ...

     

    I am not a “programmer at Adobe InDesign” but I am having trouble decoding what the scenario you have provided to us.

     

    (1) You state that you “had created a perfectly formated document in  Adobe®Acrobat-XI©® with all the very complex annotations, signatures an language settings that program allows me to put into a document.” However, Acrobat is not an authoring tool! Are you telling us that you created a PDF file using Acrobat from some other content such as Word, FrameMaker, QuarkXPress? Is this the case? If not, what did you do to create this document, presumably a PDF file, in Acrobat? Or did you save a PDF file as a Word file, for example?

     

    (2) You then state that “the first command I gave after opening was «create new document» with four pages an one column per page and then «place» to open my nicely formated document.” Are you telling us that after creating a four page InDesign document, you then tried to place the PDF file from (1) above? If not, was it a Word file or some other format as I suggest in (1) above?

     

    (3) Finally, you state that “without Warning… or any other indication that something could go wrong the machine put unformated text —literally somewhere— in the whole spread an it took me hours to force the text into the pre-defined columns.  Text frames jumped all over the place, but never where I wanted them to be located.” Since placed PDF does not reformat in any way whatsoever when placed into an InDesign document, I can only assume that what you really placed in your new InDesign document was in fact either a Word document or an RTF document.

     

    I am going to assume that I am correct about this and you saved a PDF file as a Word (or RTF) file and then tried to place the Word (or RTF) file into a new InDesign document. If that is indeed the case, I think your expectations are bit too high. Why?

     

    When Acrobat saves a file as a Word (or RTF) document, unless the PDF was created directly from Word using Acrobat's PDFMaker facility with all tagging enabled, Acrobat has to use heuristics to guess what is word, a sentence, a paragraph, a column, etc. PDF is a final form file format and unless it was created with the file was created with tagging, PDF simply contains graphic objects with absolutely no context as to how all those graphic objects relate to each other. The more complex the PDF file is – and apparently from your description, your PDF file was very complex including annotations and signatures – the more difficult it is to somehow craft a Word document or even a plain text file for output! In many cases, in a Word export, Acrobat simply has to punt and create a bunch of static text boxes in order to preserve the visual appearance of the original PDF.

     

    This is further complicated by the act of placing a Word document in InDesign. Word and InDesign have vastly different metaphors for document structure as well as algorithms for justification and spacing. InDesign's placement of Word documents attempts to retain the fidelity of the original document as best as possible within the constraints of the differences in the document structure metaphor. Assuming you have a “perfect” Word document religiously using styles, then still will be some need for manual adjustments after you place that document. There is no real way to avoid that. But what makes this more difficult in your case is that you would be placing a really hacked-up Word document for which the structure is likely anything but ideal because of the lack of context from which it was created.

     

    If you saved the PDF file as a simple text file in Acrobat, you obviously will have a tremendous amount of work to “fixup” the contents placed into InDesign. Why? Because the text saved from Acrobat doesn't differentiate between end of line or end of paragraph. Extra CR/LF are inserted between what looks like paragraphs.

     

    If for the PDF file you had in Acrobat you had the original document, whether Word or text, you likely would have been more successful placing that directly into InDesign.

     

              - Dov

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 1:53 PM   in reply to Dov Isaacs

    Dov Isaacs wrote:

    I am not a “programmer at Adobe InDesign”

    But he is the Principal Scientist for Adobe PDF or some such title, and is about as authortative on the subject of PDF as it is possible to get. He also happens to know a fair amount about InDesign.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 1:59 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    A better workflow for you ...

     

    Save the WordPerfect document as either a Word document or RTF file from within WordPerfect itself; don't use PDF (and Acrobat) as an intermediary! Directly place the resultant Word document or RTF file into InDesign.

     

    You will still need to do some adjustments, but it will likely be far less painful!!!

     

              - Dov

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 2:07 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    What I am telling is that for the purpose of editable repurposing your content, PDF is not at all optimal. PDF is great for reading and printing as well as long term archival storage of your content, but not for editable repurposing, which is what you are attempting.

     

    If you simply want the content “as is” you could simply place the PDF pages into InDesign; of course, the content won't be editable.

     

              - Dov

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 2:22 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    The point still is that what you are trying to do clearly cannot be done via a PDF intermediary. And that won't and can't change.

     

              - Dov

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 2:42 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    This has nothing to do with whether the programming teams for InDesign and Acrobat “talk to each other!” This A=>B=>Cworkflow is inherently lossy. There are commercially-available plug-ins for InDesign that convert PDF to editable InDesign directly, but even those solutions yield InDesign that requires significant editing.

     

    I don't know exactly what your “professor” told you, but it remains that if you started off with a WordPerfect document and you want an editable InDesign document, the preferred method is to save the WordPerfect document as RTF or Word and place that directly into InDesign. That will yield the fewest issues in terms of your need to do manual reformatting.

     

    In terms of issuing warnings, graphics professionals don't assume that such import operations will not require manual fixup. If we put a warning message every place something you do could potentially have an issue, you would be seeing warning pop-up messages all day long and we would get complaints about “stupid redundant warning messages”. Sorry, but that's the way it is. It isn't a programming issue.

     

              - Dov

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 4:48 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    Seems to me you’re trying to use InDesign without any training at all.

     

     

     

    I suggest you buy a good book…this is the one I recommend: http://amzn.to/TPF7TP

     

     

     

    Bob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 4:49 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    I suspect your problems with the tools are realted to using Large Fonts in Windows. Please have a look at InDesign tools and panels don't respond to mouse clicks (Windows 7/Vista)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2012 4:50 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    For what it is worth, the learning curve for InDesign is steep. You are making some assumptions about how InDesign would or should work that don't match how it actually works. You would find similar issues if you used any professional layout tool.

     

    In terms of what happened when you tried to create a new document, the only way you would get anything other than a single page with a sinlge column would be if you previously defined a new default for a new document. Either you or someone else who used the system must have done something akin to that prior to you attempting to create a new document.

     

    Depending upon how you place your text content and whether your master frame is actual activated, you would either get the text in that frame or a new frame would be created. This differentiation seems to be consistent with what you are describing.

     

    The only reason why InDesign is insisting on Minion Pro is because if you are bringing in raw text as opposed to stylized text (as you would have had with RTF), the default font is what you will get.

     

    Quite frankly, I don't know why anyone told you that you needed to learn InDesign get the “11x17 covers for the booklets right.” That doesn't make any sense to us. Your WordPerfect PDF files should have been good enough for the purpose you are using them for. A cover is a separate issue and wouldn't require you to import the other content into an InDesign file.

     

    In reality, InDesign is one of the most flexible programs out there. It is that flexibility that yields a very large number of settings, options, and behaviours that you need to learn in order to take best advantage of it. And this learning curve is steep and could or should be aided by various book and on-line training tools that if you wish or need to become proficient in InDesign, you should avail yourself of.

     

              - Dov

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2012 5:12 AM   in reply to narratorDE

    You're issues are not uncommon under someone new to the program.

     

    I suggest you follow Bob's recommendation on the book he pointed to.

     

     

    Questions:

     

    You alluded to saying that you had a perfectly formatted file in Word - so why are you trying to bring it into InDesign?

     

    You also said you had a nice PDF with all the changes etc. and you were happy with that - then why bring it to InDesign?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2012 12:03 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    Much of the mystery of how to handle the program would disappear, if one would know what one has chosen, because then one also has an idea how to change it. 

     

    I'm pretty sure that Peter is correct when he suggests that you are experiencing this bug ("InDesign tools and panels don't respond to mouse clicks").

     

    in order to do that according to my ideas I want to change font alignment and other formating on the big top tool box offering 56 formating options — it does not reacts — nothing I click on gives any indication the machine knows I want to do something

     

    I think your experience of InDesign would be radically different if you were to try the steps suggested in the KB article linked above.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2012 12:26 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    narratorDE wrote:

     

    No! I have not previously set anything! I used the DVD of Adobe®InDesign®Classroom in a Book but I naively expected that Adobe®InDesign®was cleverly enough designed to clear out any pre-settings when opening a new document

    Actually, experienced users appreciate that ID is clever enough NOT to change those things that you have customized to suit your own work habits. If you read the beginning of the Classroom in a Book I'm sure you'll find the directions for resetting InDesign to the factory default settings on which the lessons are based.

     

    A number of us have made some suggestions here that we think will improve your experience. You seem not interested in listening to those suggestions and insist the program should work exactly as you imagine it ought to. In fact, the InDesign develpment team (the engineers) have put a great deal of time and effort into asking real users waht they want and need, and the program has evolved taking the answers into consideration. I'm sure you won't find any user who is 100% satisfied, or who wouldn't like to see some change, but on the whole those of us who make oour livings using the program day in and day out find it extremely flexible and customizable, and once past the learning curve (this is one of the most complex programs you will ever use) ID is actually about the easiest page layout application to use you could wish for.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2012 12:53 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    Covers can be part of the same file, or not. Most times the cover is probably a separate file for one of a variety of reasons, including these:

     

    The booklet will be perfect bound and the cover requires a spine.

     

    The cover is in color, and the body is in black only, and the two will be printed separately.

     

    The cover will be printed on a different stock, or will be laminated, and must be printed separately.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2012 12:56 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    Is there anyone out there who feels this discussion is moving in a direction that is useful and that it should be left open? If not I'll lock it.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2012 1:06 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Peter,

     

    It's probably long past usefulness. I think narratorDE has expressed his beliefs, others have tried to provide reality, work-flow suggestions, learning resources, etc., to no avail.

     

    One person's opinion.

     

    Take care, Mike

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2012 1:22 PM   in reply to MW Design

    I was thinking the same thing from earlier in the thread, but before setting it in stone, it occurs to me that one key component is missing from the discussion: narratorDE's screen shots of what he's seeing, and what he would prefer to see, and, ideally, video of example working operations, and critical notes.

     

    A Google search for "user interface mockup software free" without quotes lists at least a few tools that might help narratorDE illustrate some desired workspaces.

     

    Before the discussion is closed, this is an opportunity for narratorDE to clarify the concerns.

    MikeWenzloff wrote:

     

    Peter,

     

    It's probably long past usefulness. I think narratorDE has expressed his beliefs, others have tried to provide reality, work-flow suggestions, learning resources, etc., to no avail.

     

    One person's opinion.

     

    Take care, Mike

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2012 1:26 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Per post 26, the time and money's been spent, and the thread is a grim record of the result. Nothing else to do here.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2012 1:40 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    I never have blamed you for what you describe as “beginner's stupidity.” I did describe a “steep learning curve.” And that means that you most likely cannot make effective use of this type of product “from the beginning” right out of the box without any training, whether via a book, videos, or face-to-face classes. InDesign is a professional tool and it is not designed for casual use the same way Word and WordPerfect are (for that matter, they aren't particularly good at that, either).

     

    As far as I know, the Classroom in a Book examples and exercises don't set any default settings and thus, shouldn't be the source of the multiple column layout you have described. In fact, it takes significant action on your part to be able to create such a default. And in using this product since before it was even announced and released, I have never seen the type of symptom you mention in terms of a default layout. It certainly isn't planned or expected behaviour nor is it something we have heard previously about from any other user.

     

              - Dov

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2012 1:49 PM   in reply to narratorDE

    narratorDE wrote:

     

    Dov

    You know the cover is everything! Otherwise it would be useless to print a booklet

     

    Yes, the cover is exceptionally important in terms of attracting the attention of a potential reader. There is no question about that.

     

    However, that doesn't mean that it must be in the same output file (typically PDF) that the inside pages are in. In fact, most printers would actually prefer otherwise.

     

    The advice that the print service provider gave you with regards to having to use InDesign was not particularly prudent. A properly prepared PDF file from Word or WordPerfect should be perfectly acceptable for printing as-is. If you wanted or needed to produce a cover with another tool, that's a separate issue. However, expecting someone to instantly learn InDesign for a job nearing completion for printing is let's say, not particularly smart. Again, InDesign is a professional tool with a steep learning curve that was not designed for casual use. (As an analogy, if you need a quick photo of your pet and all you have is a simple point-and-shoot camera or a camera phone, you don't run out and buy a high end Canon or Nikon digital SLR that likewise have very steep learning curves. Use your point-and-shoot camera or camera phone.

     

              - Dov

     

    PS:     This thread has pretty much run its course. We recognize that narratorDE is frustrated that InDesign doesn't function as he might expect and we have offered our feedback as to what may be the issues and what his expectiontations should be for such software. The thread is now closed.

     
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