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Why doesn't Premiere handle variable frame rate video?

Jan 22, 2014 10:12 AM

Tags: #frame #premiere #variable #cs6 #rate

Variable frame rate video comes from many places these days: phones, live streamed video recordings.

 

Adobe Premiere is a supposedly production level piece of software that cost a good chunk of change.

 

How is it 2012 and Adobe does not still have an answer to this problem?  After trying to editing/convert/mux/edit variable frame rate videos for the past 5 hours I am just exhausted.  No amount of conversion apps, etc have saved us and THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TOO. 

 

We have spent thousands on Adobe software packages over the last decade, probably 10s of thousands, and the only answer I find consistently is to switch to Vegas. 

 

Surely, SURELY someone at Adobe with real insight into the issue can help answer the question of whether users moving into different medium should find a place elsewhere in the software ecosystem...

 

Message was edited by: Kevin Monahan

Reason: to make article more searchable

 
Replies 1 2 3 Previous Next
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 4, 2012 9:31 PM   in reply to rmshro0

    What is the frame rate you want to use and what for?

     
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    Dec 5, 2012 8:51 AM   in reply to rmshro0

    Variable frame rates in video are not normal.  It is not used in any kind of professional production environment, which is the market PP is geared towards.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 5, 2012 9:02 AM   in reply to rmshro0

    There is.  Get your video from a real video camera, not a phone.

     

    If you insist on using consumer hardware to record video, there are plenty of consumer level applications out there that will probably work better than PP for the task.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 5, 2012 9:16 AM   in reply to rmshro0

    Playing and editing are not at all the same

     

    If you need to edit from an iphone, you probably need to use Apple software

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 5, 2012 9:35 AM   in reply to rmshro0

    Telling a customer to "use better hardware you unprofessional loser"

     

    Hardly what I said or meant.  If you want your video to work with PP, then you need to use compatible hardware to capture that video.  With the current version of PP, that does sometimes leave out some consumer level hardware.  The solution, then, is to not use that hardware if you wish to use PP.  If using that hardware is the larger priority, then you may need to find other software to edit with.

     

    As to why Adobe doesn't yet support it, it's more than likely because not enough of PP's market base uses it to make adding support worth the investment of limited resources.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 5, 2012 9:26 AM   in reply to rmshro0

    I am looking for solutions, and actual answers as to why Adobe continues to NOT support this kind of workflow while their competition DOES.

    Yes, let's remove the "professional" "unprofessional" issues from the equation. The bottom line is that Premiere (any adobe apps?) does not handle variable frame rate at this time. We rarely get any glimpses of why adobe management pursues some feature requests and abandons others. We are fairly confident it is related to the financial bottom line.

     

    Feature request form.

     

    What major editing platforms provide support for variable framerate? Curious.

     

    I'll also say that conversion tools have been very important to many segments of the editing community as various HD and compression methods have appeared and become more popular (or not).

     
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    Dec 5, 2012 10:20 AM   in reply to rmshro0
     
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    Dec 5, 2012 11:44 AM   in reply to rmshro0

    Is there an alternative to X Split that might produce a more Premiere friendly file?

     

    If some files do work when transcoded (fixed) and others dont...how can you blame Adobe for that?

     

    If the editing  of these file is so important in your studio environment and business..why would you not train your people in an application that fully meets your needs. eg Vegas if thats the case as you say it does 100%. 

     

    They are only tools....and choosing the right one for the job would be seemingly logical and productive.

     

    Maybe down the track ...Premiere will be able to do what you want.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 5, 2012 12:03 PM   in reply to rmshro0

    rmshro0 wrote:

     

    That is indeed one of the fixes we have tried in the past, but on this particular instance the simple transcode (which is what the Quicktime Saving thing actually does) didn't fix it.

    Well, if Apple's own Quicktime can't make the file work, I don't think Adobe can do anything to fix what is, after all, an Apple product

     
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    Dec 5, 2012 1:22 PM   in reply to Stan Jones

    If you want an idea of how the feature request system works - take a look here.  http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2012/12/top-feature-requests-for-a fter-effects-in-2012.html

     

    It is for After Effects but the only difference is that Todd posted the work that he does on his blog.  The same sort of process happens with Premiere Pro.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 5, 2012 1:41 PM   in reply to rmshro0

    I took a look at what XSplit is and does.

     

    Where does the need arise for Premiere with the files that come from XSplit?

     

    Xsplit seems to be a self contained "live broadcaster" of media compiled within it self.  THen it streams to various "web broadcasters".

     

    Asumeably it keeps (records)  a copy of what it is streaming?  What do you need Premiere for?

     

    Just curious about this.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 5, 2012 1:45 PM   in reply to Greg Baber

    It is for After Effects but the only difference is that Todd posted the work that he does on his blog.  The same sort of process happens with Premiere Pro.

    Yes, and we'd love to see one for Premiere Pro!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 5, 2012 2:17 PM   in reply to rmshro0

    Ah ha...I get it.

     

    ...played back inside Premiere CS6 the file drifts out of sync so at the end of a 2 hour clip, we are talking more than a full second or so.

    Is that the only issue?

     
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    Dec 5, 2012 2:35 PM   in reply to shooternz

    They are only tools....and choosing the right one for the job would be seemingly logical and productive.

     

    That was the point I was making.  Well said.

     
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    Dec 5, 2012 3:20 PM   in reply to rmshro0

    I wonder what would happen if you tried "Interpret Footage" - Speed -  function on the clip.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 5, 2012 3:47 PM   in reply to rmshro0

    "How is it possible Premiere still cannot handle variable frame rate video?"

     

    Let's flip this around. My question is: "How is it possible that these non-videocam devices still cannot produce constant frame rate video?" Why do people use such low quality capture devices and expect PPro to bail them out?

     

    I can see Adobe maybe adding some transcoding features into, say, Prelude to transcode non-conforming video into something usable by PPro, as part of the process of handing it off to PPro. But adding this to PPro, which already supports the vast majority of video standards, is just piling on.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 8, 2012 5:56 PM   in reply to rmshro0

    I am having a similar issue, however from what i can tell it is 'constant' rate, not variable.

     

    I am transfering old footage from a HI-8 tape deck. I am using the Sony DV200. It is connected via firewire to PC.  Using PP CS6 to capture. During capture audio is in sync, however when it is done and imports into PP timeline (or even before) it does drift out of sync.  As others have noted, in Windows Media or VLC it plays fine. It is 'only'when within PP.  I cannot figure this out and manually finding the out of sync point and correcting is unnacceptable. 

     

    the fact that other players don't exhibit the issue is perplexing.  The fact that i am capturing it from PP and using it within PP and PP is the one with the issue is also perplexing.

     

    Again, i dn't believe this is a variable frame rate issue, as i used Mediainfo and it shows constant.

     

    General
    Complete name                            : D:\!Video-DVD\!Clients\Willis, Katie\#356V\KW-#356 - Copy.avi
    Format                                   : AVI
    Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
    Commercial name                          : DVCPRO
    Format profile                           : OpenDML
    File size                                : 25.7 GiB
    Duration                                 : 2h 3mn
    Overall bit rate mode                    : Constant
    Overall bit rate                         : 29.8 Mbps

    Video
    ID                                       : 0
    Format                                   : DV
    Commercial name                          : DVCPRO
    Codec ID                                 : dvsd
    Codec ID/Hint                            : Sony
    Duration                                 : 2h 3mn
    Bit rate mode                            : Constant
    Bit rate                                 : 24.4 Mbps
    Encoded bit rate                         : 28.8 Mbps
    Width                                    : 720 pixels
    Height                                   : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
    Frame rate mode                          : Constant
    Frame rate                               : 29.970 fps
    Standard                                 : NTSC
    Color space                              : YUV
    Chroma subsampling                       : 4:1:1
    Bit depth                                : 8 bits
    Scan type                                : Interlaced
    Scan order                               : Bottom Field First
    Compression mode                         : Lossy
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 2.357
    Stream size                              : 24.8 GiB (97%)

    Audio
    ID                                       : 1
    Format                                   : PCM
    Format settings, Endianness              : Little
    Format settings, Sign                    : Signed
    Codec ID                                 : 1
    Duration                                 : 2h 3mn
    Bit rate mode                            : Constant
    Bit rate                                 : 1 024 Kbps
    Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
    Sampling rate                            : 32.0 KHz
    Bit depth                                : 16 bits
    Stream size                              : 904 MiB (3%)
    Interleave, duration                     : 968 ms (29.00 video frames)

     

     

    any thoughts? advice?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 8, 2012 6:15 PM   in reply to r3consulting

    Check your capture format or sequence setting; you have 32Kh audio.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 8, 2012 7:02 PM   in reply to Stan Jones

    the audio is 32kh, so my sequence is 32kh audio... so they match.

    the video is captured within premier and ironically it is PP that has issue replaying it... any other program syncs fine.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 9, 2012 10:03 AM   in reply to rmshro0

    if a user can't know for sure if its variable or static, I just think software should make good faith efforts to plan for it.

     

    I think the opposite.  The user should know how their tools function and plan accordingly.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 11, 2012 6:49 PM   in reply to rmshro0

    I see your keyint parameter is set to 250. I have to ask if you have tried setting it to a lower number. Like 60, or even 30? Your keyint-min is set to 25 yet wouldn't 30 be more appropriate?

     

    If you cut back on the type of b frame that references other frames, your file size will go up, but does that really matter at this point?

     

    See this blog posting: https://www.xsplit.com/blog.php?post_id=267

     

    This might not be helpful, but just in case you haven't looked into these things, perhaps it could be. If you are way past this, my apologies, and I wish you luck.

     

    It is difficult to know if the video is the problem or the audio - that assumes I understand the problem correctly, the audio and video are going out of sync? I have to ask if there is a reason you chose 44.1 instead of 48K.

     

    Also, I see where you say you edit the video for time. Does that mean that there are lots of cuts, every few minutes at least? Or just a few? The reason I ask is that I vaguely recall that when a long GOP is cut, Premiere Pro has some calculating to do, and it might keep the drifting down to a minimum. You might try making a lot of extra cuts (after all else is said and done but before exporting) just to test out the idea. I could be wrong on that or it could be a problem fixed long ago.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 11, 2012 6:54 PM   in reply to rmshro0

    I have a similar issue with audio/video sync on DV Transfer on tapes over 1 hr. ... sometimes it doesn't matter how long.. i think it is how it is handling 'bad frames' or indexing them... as most have said in windows media or other programs the capture plays fine, only when it is dropped in the timeline.

    I spoke with adobe support and they lead me to a program for HDV capture, but that wasn't compatible .. so somehow i googled and found this program.. winDV.  it is a VERY small program that simply captures the DV Stream.  well after much testing.. IT WORKS. so you know what... i will just capture my video in this program.  DV Capture is just capturing the digital stream to the .avi... so it really doesn't matter what program is used to capture... and this doesn't seem to produce any issues when i drop the file into premier or encore for editing/authoring.

     

    http://www.videohelp.com/tools/WinDV

     

    just wanted to pass it along.

    Rob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 1, 2013 3:52 PM   in reply to rmshro0

    I have also run into this problem with video emitted by screencapture software. The only fix seems to be to re-encode the source video with a fixed framerate (and often 100% of them as keyframes). This makes a 1GB video file into 50 or 100 GB sometimes. Frustrating!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 17, 2013 2:18 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    I can't believe as a "MVP" member of this forum that you could be as so ignorant to the importance of live streaming productions and in particularly (for which is the most common scenario for the OP's question) the video gaming industry. Video games are a mulit-BILLION dollar industry and generates an INSTANT user base for streamers and YouTubers WAY faster than any indie "film" production (all marketing aside). And to say video from any source is not worthy to be used unless it's from a "REAL" camera.. well you sir are then NO artist.. and are not helping the creative process. Great movies have been made with JUST iphones and ipads... if you don't belive go to some indie feastivals or simply YouTube it. People can do amazing things with the little they have, and the mentallity that "OH well you just need to spend more money on machinery to be worth a damn" is utter BS. I know this post is old but I was SOOOO fercious when I read it and how a "MVP" responded and no one said anything that I will say something now.

     

    Adobe should have a solution or atleast a basic workflow implementation for variable frame rates. No ifs or buts about it.

     

    [offensive personal insult removed]

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 17, 2013 2:20 PM   in reply to Levyimage

    Just because you are angry does not give you the right to violate forum rules by insulting other users and/or using offensive language.  Please keep it civil and G-rated.

     

    Jeff

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 20, 2013 5:14 AM   in reply to Jeff Bellune

    As a big board owner myself I say what is ethically appropriate and what is not is subjective to all and different for every forum. If moderators here do no stand up for their members with legitimate concerns who are snobbishly abused by other members then Adobe PR is not doing a good job concerning this forum.

    It's easy to notice that I had no personal involvement in this thread up until now and next to no other activity in this forum should suggest a very clear picture that there is something very wrong with the situation. But thank you for addressing the issue with whom I had a complaint with as I see his reply he made suggesting that adobe doesn't care about "teenagers" was deleted. It is incredibly ignorant for someone to say video gaming is only limited to teenagers. As any market research will show that the assumption/statement is entirely incorrect. Let alone saying that Adobe products "should not support" variable frame rates on imported files instead of offering viable workaround solutions to the OP.

     

    To the OP and others with the same issue.

    If you are dealing with variable frame rates in FLV files (typical stream format of live streaming services) you can save your streamed files locally and use a program called FLV_Extract which will extract 3 files (audio, video, and log) from your FLVs.. from there you can use Yamb (make sure to download MP4Box as well and place in the correct Yamb subdir) to combine the FLV contents into an Adobe supported MP4 or alternative with NO transcoding. This will ensure that you don't loss any data or suffer any quality loss (keep in mind you may still loss quality for final render). If there's is audio synce issues and you are using only cuts of the whole stream then simply unllink the audio from the video and slide the audio left or right to adjust for the sync issue. If you wish to use the whole stream and audio lag fluxuates then it will be very hard to adjust but is still possible.

    From whta I notice using Quicktime Pro to render out a a CFR version not only degrades quality from re-encoding BUT tends to waste a ton of resources (CPU time) and that time can be better spent in your project timeline and final render.

    So with live streams, when there's a huge frame rate drops (imo over 5 frames up to 8 is moderate but 10 or over is very notice-able) I just don't use those areas and slide my audio track back into sync. It's not perfect... but atleast there's no transcoding for import and at least some of the stream is still use-able.

    Good luck!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 26, 2013 4:33 AM   in reply to Levyimage

    I came here just to say a big thank you to Levyimage, for providing the only genuinely useful comment in this thread reply to the OP. Amazing that it's only taken 4 months to get to this point. Thankfully, my client has spent that long dithering so now I can hopefully actually deliver. Cheers!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 26, 2013 6:31 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    And also…

    Jim Simon wrote:

     

    if a user can't know for sure if its variable or static, I just think software should make good faith efforts to plan for it.

     

    I think the opposite.  The user should know how their tools function and plan accordingly.

     

    Yes, it's a valid point and you have made this point repeatedly, despite the OP and many other pointing out how little relevance it has in this particular conversation. Perhaps you are fortunate enough to be able to tell your clients they're not using the right tools, but I and many others are not. I have very little control over how my raw materials are captured. Nonetheless, I am required to produce professional videos from these materials for my clients.

     

    [Personal insult removed]

     
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