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Liquify as a Smart Filter Issue in Photoshop Creative Cloud edition

Dec 11, 2012 12:25 PM

Tags: #object #cs6 #smart #liquify

Liquify as a Smart Filter is definitively a long waited feature but I found an issue with it.

I made smart object from a layer, applied Liquify, next I change the document ratio with Crop tool...You see, completely different pixels are liquified now. Dissapointing

I've reported the issue already.

 
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  • JJMack
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    Dec 11, 2012 1:23 PM   in reply to YahorShumski

    Why that is how smart filters work. When you Change a document smart filter are them redone. If you change the document aspect ratio deleting some content I can well imagine trying to apply a filter like Liquify may well be a mess.  No real harm has been done its a nondestructive edit just readjust the setting or discard the smart filter and add a new one you do for the documents new aspect ratio and the layer different content. If you do not want that to happen rasterzise the smart object layer before you crop apply the Liquify..

     
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    Dec 11, 2012 9:57 PM   in reply to YahorShumski

    Maybe you could post some screenshots and more details, like what you did with the crop tool. (settings)

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Dec 12, 2012 6:29 AM   in reply to YahorShumski

    I'm having trouble understanding why you would think that should work.

     

    Liquify manipulates pixels based on a set of distortions called a "mesh".  Pixel position manipulation instructions stored in this mesh decidedly must contain pixel position information

     

    Changing the canvas size changes the number of pixels in the document, and thus how the position information would apply, I should think.

     

    Adobe would have to re-map the position information if the same mesh is to be applied to a different-sized document.  How they do this I don't know, but I can imagine it might be centered or stretched across the image, but I wouldn't expect it to be stuck into the upper-left corner.  Do you have information that says it should?

     

    What happens if you increase the canvas size equally all the way around>

     

    -Noel

     
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    Dec 12, 2012 7:51 AM   in reply to YahorShumski

    I don't think it's technically difficult to extend mesh the same side as document.

    On what experience do you base that assumption?

     

    When you save a Liquify Mesh, then cange the Canvas Size of the document and try to use the Mesh again it seems obvious to me that this will cause a dissonance.

     

    I do not use the Cloud License so I don’t have access to that feature yet, but have you tried converting the Liquified SO to an SO before messing with the Canvas Size?

     
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  • JJMack
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    Dec 12, 2012 8:15 AM   in reply to YahorShumski

    I think the layer is the same size as it was before the canvas was added and the pixels are the same a square block box on white rectangle size you can test that by turning off the visibility of the liquify smart filter. I'm not on the cloud cant test.  The mesh was resized for the new canvas size and has a new size.   The recorded setting for the filter are for the old mesh size.  The mesh was most likely resized correctly for the new canvas size.  However the setting you made were not for that mesh the recorded settings saved in the smart filter are for the old mesh. The old mesh no longer exists the canvas size has changed. Perhaps you can use Liquify advance mode and save the old mesh before changint the canvas size. I do use liquify much and can not use it as a smart filter.

     
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  • JJMack
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    Dec 12, 2012 8:40 AM   in reply to YahorShumski

    Even if you save the mesh before the canvas size change can the mesh be loaded for the new canvas size. Canvas size can add and remove canvas. How would one align the old mesh to the size the mesh now must be.

     

     

    Using Image Size not constraned might me able to distort all layers like you transformed you liquified layer.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Dec 12, 2012 8:33 AM   in reply to YahorShumski

    Only thing I might suggest as a workaround for now is working on your entire image (uncropped) as the master, then cropping at the end when you're making your work products.

     

    -Noel

     
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    Dec 12, 2012 8:35 AM   in reply to YahorShumski

    I think the underlying issue is that increasing a dimension of the canvas by using Crop Tool or Image > Canvas Size results in a Smart Object being scaled unlike other layer types which are unaltered. Scaling a SO results in Smart Filters being recalculated.

     

    In contrast, decreasing a canvas dimension by cropping or canvas-sizing does not result in SO scaling and a Smart Filtered SO is unchanged.

     

    Therefore, I think the scaling of SO when a canvas dimension is increased is wrong. Fix that and Smart Filter Liquify and others should not be affected by change of canvas size.

     
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    Dec 12, 2012 8:39 AM   in reply to YahorShumski

    I can hide Liquify smart filter before cropping but it doesn't affects the final result.

    Nothing to do with what I meant.

    Converting the Liquified SO to an SO should fix its Canvas Size, so the Liquify Smart Filter might be maintained properly on an SO in an SO – but if the Canvas Size of the new SO is the old SO’s Layer Bounds then it probably would be no use.

    I relatively often use SOs in SOs etc. … 

     

    If, on changing the Canvas Size, Photoshop should check all SOs in the document for applications of Liquify that might add a (slight) drag on the operation.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Dec 12, 2012 8:41 AM   in reply to conroy

    conroy wrote:

     

    increasing a dimension of the canvas by using Crop Tool or Image > Canvas Size results in a Smart Object being scaled

     

    Perhaps I'm not understanding you, Conroy...  Doesn't that kind of fly in the face of what Yahor showed in his video?  He increased the canvas size to the right and the square just sat there the same size and shape, with new transparency showing up on the right.

     

    I've not been able to see a Smart Object scale with changes to the Canvas Size myself.  Maybe I'm not doing what you're suggesting...

     

    -Noel

     
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  • JJMack
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    Dec 12, 2012 9:12 AM   in reply to conroy

    conroy wrote:

     

    I think the underlying issue is that increasing a dimension of the canvas by using Crop Tool or Image > Canvas Size results in a Smart Object being scaled unlike other layer types which are unaltered. Scaling a SO results in Smart Filters being recalculated.

    Increasing canvas size does not scale smart objects.  The smart layers embedded object has not changed, only its associated transform position has been adjusted for the new canvas size. The Op saw that when I suggested he turn of the liquify smart filters visibility. What is happing is the liquify smart filter is using s different mesh after the canvas has been resized so its results are different then before the canvas resize.

     

     

    In contrast, decreasing a canvas dimension by cropping or canvas-sizing does not result in SO scaling and a Smart Filtered SO is unchanged.

    .

    Yes unlike other type of layers where cropping with crop tool or canvas size these layers mat have pixels removed and in the case of the background layer may have pixels added. Smart layer embedded object remain intact only the associated transform position is adjusted for the new canvas size

     
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    Dec 12, 2012 9:27 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel Carboni wrote:

     

    conroy wrote:

     

    increasing a dimension of the canvas by using Crop Tool or Image > Canvas Size results in a Smart Object being scaled

     

    Perhaps I'm not understanding you, Conroy...  Doesn't that kind of fly in the face of what Yahor showed in his video?  He increased the canvas size to the right and the square just sat there the same size and shape, with new transparency showing up on the right.

     

    I've not been able to see a Smart Object scale with changes to the Canvas Size myself.  Maybe I'm not doing what you're suggesting...

     

    -Noel

     

    I didn't notice the video, unfortunately.

     

    I happened to be using Lens Correction on a SO when posting. You're correct, normally SO are unscaled by a change in canvas dimension. I wrongly extrapolated that all SO would be scaled because a Lens Correction Smart Filtered SO does scale when a canvas dimension is increased. A simple example follows.

     

    Before activating Crop Tool

     

    Screen shot 2012-12-12 at 17.15.17.png

     

     

    Increased canvas width before committing crop.

     

    Screen shot 2012-12-12 at 17.15.44.png

     

     

    After committing crop, the SO is wider plus its image is upscaled.

     

    Screen shot 2012-12-12 at 17.15.51.png

     
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    Dec 12, 2012 9:42 AM   in reply to JJMack

    JJMack wrote:

     

    conroy wrote:

     

    I think the underlying issue is that increasing a dimension of the canvas by using Crop Tool or Image > Canvas Size results in a Smart Object being scaled unlike other layer types which are unaltered. Scaling a SO results in Smart Filters being recalculated.

    Increasing canvas size does not scale smart objects. [...]

     

     

    I now see you're right about most Smart Objects. However, what do you make of my example of a Lens Correction Smart Filtered Smart Object being upscaled?

     

     

    The smart layers embedded object has not changed, only its associated transform position has been adjusted for the new canvas size.

     

    Yes, I've always understood that the object embedded inside a SO is always unchanged by operations in the main document.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Dec 12, 2012 10:31 AM   in reply to conroy

    Seems like the same thing that Yahor reported - that the filter is scaling its operation to the entire visible canvas.

     

    -Noel

     
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    Dec 12, 2012 10:33 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    In my case, the actual SO has its dimensions changed.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Dec 12, 2012 10:55 AM   in reply to conroy

    Considering that Lens Correction can expand an image (even a non-SO image), does it change the dimensions of the SO if you dial in center-scale settings in the Lens Correction tool?

     

    -Noel

     
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    Dec 12, 2012 11:13 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Yep, the SO is enlarged when scale is minimum in the filter controls. As before, the images are before crop, during crop before commit, and after crop. Note that after the crop, the checkered pattern is definitely larger despite not entirely filling the enlarged hole in the black surround.

     

     

    Screen shot 2012-12-12 at 19.00.26.png

     

    Screen shot 2012-12-12 at 19.00.36.png

     

    Screen shot 2012-12-12 at 19.01.19.png

     
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    Dec 12, 2012 4:55 PM   in reply to conroy

    The first time Liquify starts it tests to see if it was invoked as a smart object or from an action. If so, when finished,  it returns the current mesh in an action descriptor that is included in the smart object or action. When Liquify is restarted as a smart object the mesh is loaded from the action descriptor and scaled vertically and horizontally to fit the current document size, not the image size within the document.

     
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    Dec 12, 2012 11:17 PM   in reply to john worthington

    The first time Liquify starts it tests to see if it was invoked as a smart object or from an action. If so, when finished,  it returns the current mesh in an action descriptor that is included in the smart object or action.

    So if a Smart Object has other, smaller bounds than the document’s canvas size is the Mesh the size of the Layer or the Document?

     

    In any case I think the important thing is that a longstanding feature request has been implemented (even if it is currently limited to the … Cloud), so: Thanks!

     
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    Dec 13, 2012 9:08 AM   in reply to c.pfaffenbichler

    Currently the mesh is resized to the document bounds.

     

    If we added capability, how could Liquify know if the user wanted to see the entire document bounds or just the layer bounds? Does it matter? Could Liquify only show the layer bounds and not the document bounds in future versions? Would this negatively affect any other user work flows?

     

    What if Liquify was to detect a change in the (document or layer) bounds relative to the loaded SO mesh and pop a dialog asking the user how to handle the change, ie scale the old mesh to fit, fill new areas with new mesh, or ??

     

    Thoughts?

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Dec 13, 2012 4:12 PM   in reply to john worthington

    That pop-up you mentioned at first blush sounds like a decent way to handle it.  Something along the lines of the Canvas Size dialog.  You could even have it default to certain settings if it's possible to detect specifically how the canvas size was changed.

     

    ON THE OTHER HAND... 

     

    One has to wonder, though, especially if there are more filters that need this treatment (e.g., Lens Correction) whether a person might see pop-up after pop-up, each time a canvas size is adjusted via the Crop Tool.  That wouldn't be good.

     

    -Noel

     
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    Dec 13, 2012 10:29 PM   in reply to john worthington

    Currently the mesh is resized to the document bounds.

    I think that makes sense.

    Could this cause issues with Smart Objects that extend beyond the document’s canvas?

    And if a SO with Liquify applied is converted to a SO will the resulting SO be of the document size?

     

    Thoughts?

    Apart from changed canvas’ sizes I’m afraid that transformations of the Smart Object itself might cause mixed expectations; some users may expect the Mesh to be transformed along with the SO (which I supsect might be difficult in case of a Warp) while others may expect the Mesh to stay put.

     

    In any case I highly welcome the implementation of the feature.

     
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    Jan 23, 2014 4:19 AM   in reply to john worthington

    jworthin wrote:

     

    Currently the mesh is resized to the document bounds.

     

    If we added capability, how could Liquify know if the user wanted to see the entire document bounds or just the layer bounds? Does it matter? Could Liquify only show the layer bounds and not the document bounds in future versions? Would this negatively affect any other user work flows?

     

    What if Liquify was to detect a change in the (document or layer) bounds relative to the loaded SO mesh and pop a dialog asking the user how to handle the change, ie scale the old mesh to fit, fill new areas with new mesh, or ??

     

    Thoughts?

     

     

    An option to restrict Liquify to layer bounds would be a massive time saver for us, smart liquify has good potential but is too susceptible to the mesh shifting position when changing canvas size and even importing layers from other documents with a different canvas size. I'm dissapointed this wasnt in the latest update.

     

    Is there a way we can request this?

     

    Thanks.

     
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    Jan 23, 2014 4:31 AM   in reply to joetazz

    Please look for existing Feature Requests over at

    http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/

    and add your support.

    Or add one if none about the issue you have in mind exists yet.

     
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    Jan 23, 2014 5:25 AM   in reply to c.pfaffenbichler
     
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    Jan 24, 2014 9:44 AM   in reply to joetazz

    If you are impacted by this please let us know. The greater the customer impact the greater the fix priority. The workaround is to do the Liquification after clipping and scaling. Is that any help?

     
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    Mar 2, 2014 10:56 AM   in reply to john worthington

    The issue is worse than I thought and even doing liquification after clipping and scaling doesn't help.
    I bet noone expects that after applying liquify this way you shouldn't even reposition this layer. (it may not be visible immediately but after first recalculation it's all messed up)
    The way it works right now only creates disastrous problems during editing. Not only changing document size or re-cropping messes up this smart filter but resizing layer or even simple moving layer around document messes up liquify! The only reason people don't complain about it as much is they should is because they don't realise how it works. It took me a while to realise why those layers I've already edited are all wrong again and again.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Mar 2, 2014 12:01 PM   in reply to john worthington

    Personally I believe the use of smart objects has become somewhat overrated.  Operating on pixels seems to have become unfashionable, but it's not evil, and it doesn't invoke all these second-level difficulties that sometimes add up to more trouble than just editing an image again (likely with better software and better skills).

     

    -Noel

     
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    Mar 2, 2014 3:35 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    If smart objects were calculated in a more stable and controlable manner they would be a massive fail safe for retouchers, as well as a time saver when the need to make tweaks on certain layers, especially liquify. For people who use a complex composite layering system, the theory of smart objects is considerably useful, however at the moment it is unsafe to use in practice.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Mar 2, 2014 3:43 PM   in reply to joetazz

    Oh, don't get me wrong - I fully understand the use and advantages of layering, smart objects, et.al.  It's just that sometimes I see people going for the "intergalactic smart object" approach instead of just getting things done directly.

     

    I've even seen people say that using layers, smart objects, and everything that goes with them is the "only right" way to do things.  LOL

     

    There's a lot to be said for understanding pixels well enough to make best in show results by marshalling pixels around and not needing to go back and incessantly tweak on a layered document to try to make it better.  What I'm talking about is akin to designing quality in vs. testing it in.

     

    But yes, I understand that there are cases where external forces can require changes.  I have made many a layered, tweakable document myself when it makes sense.  I'm not advocating an extreme all or nothing position.  Just voicing the opinion that I like that Adobe doesn't forget that we don't all want to stack smart objects up and waste compute time over and over.

     

    -Noel

     
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    Mar 2, 2014 11:06 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    I've even seen people say that using layers, smart objects, and everything that goes with them is the "only right" way to do things.  LOL

    Obviously those people’s assessment is not correct.

    Much of what one can achieve with Photoshop CC image editing-wise one could achieve back with Photoshop 7.

     

    But with some Photoshop users I get the feeling that they may not have read the »What’s new« section of the Help for several versions and their decisions with regard to Smart Objects and Layer structure do not always seem well-educated.

     
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