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What you don't get unless you're a Cloud member

Dec 11, 2012 2:45 PM

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 11, 2012 3:16 PM   in reply to conroy

    This is what is called an ominous trend.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 11, 2012 3:18 PM   in reply to Lundberg02

    I think this was what was advertised, the latest stuff when it is available.  No waiting for next version.  Downside is if you stop subscription you have nothing.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 11, 2012 3:23 PM   in reply to Curt Y

    You need to have a backup like at least the previous version or money set aside to outright purchase an upgrade. But if you cancel before the end of the agreement period you will have to pay up what, 1/2 of the remaining balance on the account?

     

    The updates are pretty good. I like the better setup in Crop, although I still hate the basic operation.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 11, 2012 5:21 PM   in reply to conroy

    Nor bug fixes because apparently new features are more important than fixing bugs these days.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,488 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Dec 12, 2012 8:25 AM   in reply to conroy

    Many (most?) experts here have chosen (so far) to stay on the "Perpetual" license path, right?  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

     

    What I don't know is whether experts who have chosen "Perpetual" licensing are going to want to "upgrade" to the Creative Cloud licensing experience.  I'll be interested to hear thoughts on that subject.

     

    Will the Cloud-only features be run-time functionality, enabled via options in the serial number? This would make sense, but I suspect it won't be the case. If not, as much trouble as Adobe has traditionally had with rolling out working code for one development stream (with a run-time option to make it Standard or Extended), how well are they going to do with multiple development paths?

     

    Assuming the Cloud version is going to be Photoshop CS6.1 (following in the footsteps of its predecessor), will people on "Perpetual" license path have an option to upgrade? Will there be any chance of a better discount than the traditional $199 / $399 upgrade, since it's just a .1 version? That's a lot of money to pay for minor tweaks.

     

    Will a new Perpetual license purchaser get CS6 or CS6.1?

     

    Assuming the .1 functionality isn't enough to push experts into changing to the rental model, I wonder what will happen when Adobe no longer gets valuable free technical support for their Cloud customers from these experts here, since they won't have the latest and greatest code with which to reproduce problems, find workarounds, etc.

     

    If bugfixes show up in the Cloud version alone...  That would be nasty.

     

    There are many facets to this.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 8:44 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    I have to recind my comment about crop above.

     

    I actually used it!

     

    http://forums.adobe.com/message/4914934#4914934

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 8:46 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    It would seem to be the simplest thing in the world to get around the financial laws (which apparently restrict the offering of new benefits to a pre-existing purchase) by offering the new features from PS 13.1 to owners of Perpetual CS6 licences as a paid-upgrade for the price of a few dollars?

     

    Many people and companies cannot move to the Cloud (for a number of reasons) and depriving those who have spent a lot of money on purchasing a Perpetual Licence from receiving the full benefits of on-going development is reprehensible.

     

    People are rightfully, and understandably, going to to be angry and aggrieved if they are denied access to features which have been made available to Cloud members but withheld from Perpetual licensees.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 9:01 AM   in reply to CameraAnn

    If a user with a perpetual licence can get the latest updates what would be the incentive to upgrade?  To avoid this Adobe would have to price the upgrades at a fairly high price, and then the user would feel that was a ripoff.

     

    "People are rightfully, and understandably, going to to be angry and aggrieved if they are denied access to features which have been made available to Cloud members but withheld from Perpetual licensees".  Isn't that the incentive to use the cloud? 

     

    People are getting caught up with the philosophy that everyone has the same rights, but in actuality discrimination by pricing is alive and well in capitalist endeavors.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,488 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Dec 12, 2012 9:23 AM   in reply to CameraAnn

    Any policy that benefits an exclusive group can easily be seen as hindering those who are not in the club.

     

    There are certain accepted norms - e.g., if you can pay more to get more, then those who pay less have made a clear choice.  This describes, for example, the differences between Standard and Extended.

     

    But a completely different licensing structure, one in which you must give Adobe the right to charge you repeatedly for the privilege of continuing to use the software, doesn't so clearly make that distinction.

     

    Perhaps it will make it easier if we try to break down the costs...

     

    1a.  A perpetual license upgrade every 18 months to 2 years for Photoshop Standard has cost about $199.  Let's say that's $133 a year in round numbers, or about $11 a month.

     

    1b.  Photoshop Extended upgrades are around double that for Standard at $399, so that's about $22 a month.

     

    2a.  A full Creative Cloud membership for existing Adobe customers is $29.99 a month (that's a special upgrade deal, it's normally $49.99).  For this price one gets the entire Creative Suite, within which you get Photoshop Extended.

     

    2b.  A Photoshop Extended-only Cloud memebership is $19.99 a month.  There is no option to rent Photoshop Standard that I can see.

     

     

    So if you're going to be keeping current with Photoshop, the Cloud membership at first glance seems attractive.

     

    But what's not shown here is that if you stop paying $19.99 a month, you've got nothing.  It just stops working.

     

    Experience has shown that "Perpetual" versions of Photoshop grow harder and harder to use, and get less and less support from Adobe anyway.  If you can get the software activated you can run it on a new system pretty well, but...  People report the inability to activate (e.g., Photoshop CS) on a modern OS, and Adobe says "Sorry, incompatible".

     

    Realistically, this means that the value of a Perpetual license is only marginally more, from the perspective of being able to continue long-term use without continued payment.

     

     

    Another thing to consider...  What if Adobe were to fail utterly and fall off the face of the Earth?  What would happen with the software then?  Would your Perpetual license work any better than an expired Cloud license?

     

    I wouldn't bet on it.

     

    Adobe would stop maintaining its servers and would certainly not have anyone manning phones to help you with your licensing problems.  What I suspect would happen is all Adobe software that requires activation would just stop working.

     

    In this situation - a complete loss of Adobe - we might turn to cracked versions of Photoshop, at least until some other company filled the void with a better product.

     

     

    Thinking about this at this depth, I'm starting to think about the Cloud licensing model in a bit of a new light.

     

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 9:55 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    As in subscribing?

     

    Having all the apps available for one small monthly payment is powerful, not to mention the storage and web hosting (which I have still to use. Seems like people are having problems with that as yet unresolved, AFAIK.) For  instance, I can run Audition. It is quite powerful, although a steep learning curve. I used to do audio editing professionally (1960 or so!) and I am familiar with the basic needs at that level as well as photography.Once I get more comfortable, I will investigate working in that field as well.

     

    That's just for starters.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,488 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Dec 12, 2012 11:06 AM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Yeah, that's the idea.  Upgrade a Perpetual license with a Subscription license so as to always have the advantage of the latest and greatest.  For those who habitually upgrade their Perpetual license every release anyway I think I've shown that it's not that big a jump.

     

    Does anyone know if the special $29.99 a month rate goes up to the full price after the 1 year contract is up?

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 11:08 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    AFAIK, yes. Still a good buy!

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Dec 12, 2012 11:12 AM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Yes, though maybe less attractive to someone who only bought Photoshop Standard upgrades every cycle.  The $19.95 a month deal would be more to their liking.

     

    Is Captivate a part of the Creative Suite?  I don't have a good desktop video capture solution at the moment.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 11:16 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel,

    One other factor to think about:

     

    Clearly the subscription model is hugely more profitable. No product manufacturing, vastly reduced disribution costs etc. I'm sure Adobe would love to see every single user take the bait. No wonder today's pricing is attractive.

    My concern is for tomorrow. Once on the 'subscription pricing hook', Adobe can set those subscription rates at whatever level they like. Users will have very little option other than to pay.

     

    Mike A.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 11:17 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Never heard of it nor do I see it on the list.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 11:33 AM   in reply to Mike_Abbott

    That's always possible, and given the tenor of the times, one has to evaluate it carefully.

     

    My fallback, worst case, is back to CS5, where even in ACR of that vintage, I get excellent results.

     

    Also, I could possibly still upgrade to CS6 and drop the subscription.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,488 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Dec 12, 2012 11:52 AM   in reply to Mike_Abbott

    Mike_Abbott wrote:

     

     

    Clearly the subscription model is hugely more profitable.

     

    Well, maybe.  For those who buy the software as a download anyway, I'm not sure that Adobe makes more on selling them a subscription, except maybe that they might take the bait and buy into Photoshop more easily because of the lower initial cost.

     

    The entire Creative Suite IS pretty expensive if bought all at once.

     

    Whether they will keep the subscription rates in line with upgrade prices...  I imagine they will.  The software does have a certain value, and if they suddenly raised the price without the perception of added value, people will consider falling back on their old versions of Photsohop (such as what Lawrence said, above).  That should keep pressure on the pricing for quite a few years.

     

    Does anyone know if you can buy a Perpetual license at upgrade pricing using a serial number from a Cloud subscription?  Or is it a one-way gate?

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 11:55 AM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Just got an e-mail from Adobe wanting me to review my "Recent Purchase". I thought is was a subscription.

     

    Do I tell the truth? But then, my complaints are not about the subscription per se.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 12:01 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    If you look at all the public's buying habits it is all about monthly payments.  People are more concerned with the monthly payment on the house, car, boat, TV, or whatever than its price tag, and really do not care how much more it costs by the time the payments stop.

     

    So with cloud pricing it is very attractive to the casual user.  Rather than shell out a thousand dollars or more you just rent it by the month. 
    I assume you can stop and start subscription at will so that would make it easier to pay when you need it (after you figure out how to use it).  Therein lies the big rub to monthly rental, the learning curve.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,488 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Dec 12, 2012 12:00 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Perhaps the subscription "purchases" the upgrades for you.  I can see how a system initially set up to support only perpetual licenses might still have sales terminology built into it all over the place.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,488 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Dec 12, 2012 12:02 PM   in reply to Curt Y

    Curt Y wrote:

     

    I assume you can stop and start subscription at will so that would make it easier to pay when you need it

     

    You have to agree to a 1 year contract if you want the lowest subscription rate.

     

    It's never simple. 

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 12:06 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    The profit obviously comes with increased participation. Subscriptions in the thousands trumps sales in the hundreds.

     

    It does change out competitve position vis a vs our clients and competitors. My architectural photography went way down once decent digital cameras were available to the firm for less than the price of hiring me for a couple of jobs. The same will hold here. Folks will jump in (including I would imagine users of other editing programs) and hang out a shingle.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 12:07 PM   in reply to Curt Y

    No, it's a 1 yr contract, with a penalty for cancelling.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 12:13 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Sigh!

     

    I am about to run errands and just rememberd I have to drive past Clackamas Town Center, where yesterday's shooting occured.

     

    And tomorrow I begin a photoshoot of....Police Officers!

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,488 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Dec 12, 2012 12:35 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Keep your head down.

     

    I suggest perhaps using the term "photo session" vs. "photoshoot".

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 2:58 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Amen to that!

     

    My first subject is a Captain, the second a Chief so I won't be spooking them easily.

     

    Ooops! I said "spook"!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 5:10 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    It is unfortunate that Adobe has taken the step forward to basically deny license owners access to upgrades, especially to Photoshop. Many of us use Lightroom/Photoshop for photographic processing tools and now are being discriminated against.

     

    In fact the pricing structure is:

     

    For ME: Design Standard - 1299$, or Photoshop 699$

     

    Cloud: All $49.99/month,

    Upgrade: $29.99/month

    Photoshop only $19.99/month

     

    BUT THERE IS A PROBLEM ... not available in my region (South East Asia) so I have to purchase individual products ... with no upgrades ... and there was plenty said about inclusions for CS6 ... where is the Adobe support for customers NOT in the US region.

     

    In fact the equivalent cost of upgrade from CS5-6 (I bought a full copy with Design Standard) was only $230 and yet a year of Creative Cloud membership (CS Only) is $240.

     

    I guess we need to look at alternatives if Adobe isn't going support their customers.

     

    Unfortunate though as I like LR/CS.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 9:16 PM   in reply to Lundberg02

    ageed

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 9:35 PM   in reply to Curt Y

    Yes it may be what was advertised but it implied that the VERSION was the thing that was kept up to date not new features that are a bit more than what a version would normally have as an update. It seems like a lure to the cloud as they make more money there than with us full lisence users who upgrade at our own pace and have the app whether or not we have a fat or lean month and I am not without the app if I can't pay. It is like rent-a-centre; where you may get half way through payng-perhaps fall behind enough that-you then loose the item you were paying towards. Perhaps adobe will soon implement early cancelation penalties too like AT&T? Think of it like time-warner and other big multi nats corralling users into a position of dependence. It's a harsh and predatory business model and removes the endusers rights to own the means of production!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 9:41 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    So true Noel. You bring up really valid points. I hope adobe is monitoring.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 9:54 PM   in reply to Curt Y

    Well Curt, You make the case for multi nats everywhere and succed in including adobe as just another predator in the corporate jungle. I had hoped better for them. The "Incentive" to use a thing does not make it feel any less like coersion or cartel-like.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 13, 2012 1:26 AM   in reply to conroy

    I am a loyal paying customer and am very annoyed that the new Photoshop features are for Creative Cloud subscribers only!

     

    I own CS4 Master Collection, CS5 Design Premium, CS5.5 Design Premium and CS6 Design & Web Premium.

     

    Check out the new features of PS Creative Cloud version:

    http://blogs.adobe.com/photoshopdotcom/2012/12/new-exclusive-photoshop -features-for-creative-cloud-members.html

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 13, 2012 2:23 AM   in reply to Studio57NL

    adobe is all about money.. they care a sh*t about your complains.

     
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  • JJMack
    5,991 posts
    Jan 9, 2006
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    Dec 14, 2012 6:25 AM   in reply to conroy
    1. You Don't Get the New Features for hardware you don't have
    2. You Don't Get the New Bugs
    3. You Don't Get old Features you relied on removed
    4. You Don't Get forced to be dependant on Adobe's Support
    5. You Don't Get impacted having to create new work-flows

     

    You a winner

     


     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 14, 2012 6:39 AM   in reply to hamada2003

    hamada2003 wrote:

     

    adobe is all about money.. they care a sh*t about your complains.

    It seems to be working.  Adobe's stock price is up 12% from mid November, and up almost 6% today with better than expected earnings.

     
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  • JJMack
    5,991 posts
    Jan 9, 2006
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    Dec 14, 2012 7:08 AM   in reply to Curt Y

    Where are you getting these numbers and who is cooking the up. Just look at what the press does with numbers and polls are any correct.  Lets see how Adobe handles the bugs they just infected their cloud users with..

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 14, 2012 7:12 AM   in reply to JJMack

    JJMack wrote:

     

    1. You Don't Get the New Features for hardware you don't have
    2. You Don't Get the New Bugs
    3. You Don't Get old Features you relied on removed
    4. You Don't Get forced to be dependant on Adobe's Support
    5. You Don't Get impacted having to create new work-flows

     

    You a winner

     


     

    I have been asking about this with no answers from anyone. Apparently Adobe does not want to admit to this.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 14, 2012 7:15 AM   in reply to JJMack

    JJMack wrote:

     

    Where are you getting these numbers and who is cooking the up.

    Prices from stock chart posted by NY Stock Exchange.  Mid November stock hit low of 32.26.  Been steady increase in price since then and yesterday it closed at 35.50.  Today it opened at 37.60, although the price has declined since the opening.

     
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