Skip navigation
wolpers0815
Currently Being Moderated

Colors differ between Library and Develop

Jan 5, 2013 10:56 AM

Tags: #problem #color #export #library #develop #management

Below is an image that contains a screenshot of the Develop-module on the right side and a screenshot of the Library-module with the same raw-image on the left. On my hardware-calibrated ColorEdge monitor I detected that especially the blue colors differ. The desired blue from the Develop-module changes to a purple-blue in the Library-module. The same issue occurs when I export this image to JPEG or when I  open it in Photoshop (regardless of the color profile).

screenshot.jpg

What are the reasons for that misbehavior?

Where are Lightroom's color management settings to make my images everywhere look the same? What are the correct settings?

 

Thanks in advance!!!

 

PS: Problem is not visible very well in browser. Please download image instead.

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 5, 2013 11:25 AM   in reply to wolpers0815

    See this thread: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/742102?start=0&tstart=0

    and this one: http://forums.adobe.com/message/1453201#1453201

     

    The color space in Lr is Melissa RGB, a derivative of proPhoto RGB. This cannot be changed.

    There are no color management settings in Lr that would affect the display.

     

    Make sure that in Photoshop your working color space is set to proPhoto RGB.

     

    Since the Library / Loupe View shows the "canned" previews, it might be that the blue is slightly out-of-gamut in the Loupe View.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 5, 2013 12:03 PM   in reply to wolpers0815

    AFAIK previews are rendered into Adobe RGB, while develop shows the file in "Melissa RGB" (and converted to monitor profile, in this case wide gamut). So far so good - that would account for small gamut differences.

     

    The screenshot has Adobe RGB embedded, so I opened it in Photoshop and reached for my favorite diagnostic tool, the histogram. There is red clipping in one (caused by the deep blue) and not in the other.

     

    But to reach any conclusions from that (and if you have Photoshop) you need to assign your monitor profile to the screenshot. Assign, not convert. Just leave it in monitor profile and post here. I'm not at my wide gamut monitors here, so I probably won't see much, but the histogram should show what's going on.

     

    (edited for clarity)

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 6, 2013 3:46 AM   in reply to wolpers0815

    There was something nagging in the back of my head with this, because the clipping is in the Develop version, not the Library one. That is the opposite of what one would expect, and would perhaps point to the monitor profile. Try to recalibrate.

     

    Just to explain the rather strange request of posting in the monitor profile: the RGB numbers sent to the display do not refer to the original document profile, but to the monitor profile. So for a screenshot, the monitor profile is the correct one to use. And in addition, the screenshot posted is "gamut limited" by both Adobe RGB and the monitor profile. So it's hard to tell where the clipping happens.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 6, 2013 9:19 AM   in reply to wolpers0815

    Another example of the well-known blue-purple problem with color managed workflows. Try seeing what happens when you soft proof to adobeRGB in Develop. You'll probably see the same subtle blue-purple shift as you do in Library. If fact if I take your screenshot above into Lightroom's develop and softproof adobeRGB you can see that the blue above the castle has large regions out of adobeRGB gamut. Those are the regions that look different between Library and Develop. There is probably very little you can do about this and it will probably be even worse if you go to sRGB. It is ironically a side effect of working on a wide gamut monitor that you can even see this. Most people would not be able to see this as they work on monitors more close to sRGB monitors and all those images would look identical (but all wrong ;-) ). On my display for example, all of the blue, in the sky and in the reflection, is out of display gamut as my display (the very nice but closer to sRGB than aRGB display on a retina Mac Book Pro) cannot show the difference. My guess is that the blue is also out of gamut for your display but that the different degrees of out-of-gamutness cause the difference in color shift. So my advice is to softproof the image in Develop to adobeRGB. Then toggle the profile and display out-of-gamut warnings (the little page icon on the right of the histogram and the little monitor icon on the left) and see what happens. The sky will probably show areas where it is out of adobeRGB and even out of your display's gamut. You might wanty to bring the blue into adobeRGB or sRGB (or at least to work well in those spaces) if you plan to export these images into those spaces for use outside of your workflow.

     

    Ironically this blue will print fine on most printers.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 6, 2013 9:50 AM   in reply to wolpers0815

    Yes, I thought of the purple shift discussed earlier - but there's still something odd here. This is Library:

    library.png

    Everything looks fine, no significant clipping. And here's Develop:

    develop.png

    Suddenly there is clipping in the red channel, corresponding to the deep blue sky. What you would expect here is clipping in Library, not Develop.

     

    Here's how the red channel looks when opened in Photoshop. You can clearly see the totally black sky in the Develop version:

    red channel2.jpg

     

    This looks to me as if the Develop module has some issue with the monitor profile.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 12:51 AM   in reply to twenty_one

    Back at work and my wide gamut monitors, and now I see the problem very clearly.

     

    Lr Develop and Photoshop are basically in agreement, although there is the weird banding in the Photoshop version. The differences are all in the red channel, so here's once again how the full screenshot looks - the first as is, the second with a curves layer to make it clearer:

     

    screenshot_red.jpg

    screenshot_red_curves.jpg

     

    So let's forget the histogram for now (although the clipping still makes me suspicious) and figure out which version is the correct one. I tend to trust Photoshop, but there is one known bug that affects Prophoto files with Open GL "on" only. All other color spaces go clear of it. This could well be it, because it causes colored banding in shadow areas. The bug is acknowledged but still not resolved.

     

    So try to turn off Open GL in Photoshop and see if the banding goes away.

     

    If it does, and Lightroom Develop/Photoshop are in agreement, I'd probably leave it at that and settle for Jao's explanation above. As has been said before, the fact that there is a difference is in itself no mystery, since the previews are rendered into Adobe RGB and Develop uses linear Prophoto.

     

    And then I'd recalibrate the monitor, making sure that it's properly warmed up, just to be safe.

     

    I'll try to duplicate this when I get time, using images with similar deep blue tones. But my monitors are Flexscans, not Coloredges, and the Eizo profiling software is different, so it's not directly comparable.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 1:44 AM   in reply to web-weaver

    web-weaver wrote:

     

    The color space in Lr is Melissa RGB, a derivative of proPhoto RGB. This cannot be changed.

    A slight clarification: I understand that Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB with linear gamma in Develop Module.  The histogram displayed in Develop is with the so-called "Melissa RGB" profile applied, which is ProPhoto RGB but with sRGB gamma. 

     

    Library Module displays images in Adobe RGB, as it uses the 8-bit jpeg previews (which are Adobe RGB).  It would not be a good idea to use such a wide colour space as ProPhoto RGB in 8-bit (there would be a risk of visible tonal gradations). 

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 5:34 AM   in reply to wolpers0815

    Well, I certainly can't reproduce it on my system. I found this image, and pushed blue saturation until the red channel just started clipping in Adobe RGB. Screenshot has Adobe RGB embedded:

    blue_orig.jpg

    Then I took screenshots from Lr library, Lr develop and PS CS5.5 (opened in Prophoto), and with the monitor profile embedded looked at the red channel in Photoshop. No difference:

     

    blue_comp.jpg

     

    Although this is not directly comparable, I still half suspect that the monitor profile is the OP's problem.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 7:37 AM   in reply to twenty_one

    ...and for the sake of completeness, I also tried to push it past Adobe RGB clipping. Still no visible difference between the three anywhere (although the histograms show small variations in where the clipping sets in). It has to be the monitor profile.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 11:06 AM   in reply to wolpers0815

    make MelissaRGB the library profile.

    That's unfortunately impossible as the previews would have to be in 16 bit to not be horrendously artefacted in a linear gamma space. Since jpeg (which can only be 8 bit) is used for the previews, that's impossible and doing anything but jpeg is a bad idea as necesssary storage would explode by orders of magnitude. You used to be able to get the previews to be in prophotoRGB (i.e. gamma 1.8) by selcting high quality for the previews. This often results in posterization artefacts in subtle gradients such as seen in skies. I believe high quality is now also adobeRGB in LR 4, but I haven't checked that.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 12:48 PM   in reply to Jao vdL

    There is also another issue, which is still not resolved in LR4.3:

     

    http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/afm8rbh6tnc31

     

    You can test this for yourself by opening any High ISO (i.e. 3200 or higher) image and then apply high Sharpening, but NO Luminance NR (i.e. 0). Compare the Develop module Fit view image to the Library module Fit view image and you will see that the Library view image is lighter. Now Export or Edit in PS the raw file to 16bit TIFF ProPhoto RGB and compare it in LR to the raw file in Develop view. The Exported or Edit in PS file will also look lighter. When in 1:1 view mode the Library and Develop module images will look identical. This indicates the Develop module view is the ONLY accurate representation of the applied settings for high ISO images with either high sharpening applied and/or low Luminance NR applied.

     

    Since tonality changes are being applied to both LR’s downsized onscreen Library previews AND actual exported files, I consider this a serious “bug.” Unfortunately, Adobe has completely ignored this Bug Report.

     

    You may also be interested in this bug report, which has been fixed in LR4.3 final release:

     

    http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/color_shift_on_r e_import_from_ps_13_0_1_to_lr_4_2_windows_nikon_d800

     

    So Adobe does respond sometimes.

     

    Message was edited by: trshaner Corrected link for unreolved issue in LR4.3

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 12:51 PM   in reply to trshaner

    Sorry, the first link posted for the unresolved LR4.3 issue was wrong. It has been corrected as follows:

     

    http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/afm8rbh6tnc31

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Andrew Rodney
    1,387 posts
    Apr 16, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 1:31 PM   in reply to wolpers0815

    Seeing slight differences between the various moudules other than Develop, and Develop itself isn't unusual. The only accurate way to view the images is within Develop and at 1:1 or greater. That preview should match Photoshop and other ICC aware applications.

     

    MelissaRGB is only used for the Histogram (outside the soft proof mode) and for the percentage values, it's ProPhoto primaries with a sRGB Tone Response Curve. Not the same as the internal color space which has no name and uses ProPhoto primaries with a linear TRC.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 3:15 PM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    Andrew Rodney wrote:

     

    Seeing slight differences between the various moudules other than Develop, and Develop itself isn't unusual. The only accurate way to view the images is within Develop and at 1:1 or greater. That preview should match Photoshop and other ICC aware applications.

     

    Not for noisy high ISO images! See reply 14.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Andrew Rodney
    1,387 posts
    Apr 16, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 3:26 PM   in reply to trshaner

    trshaner wrote:

    You can test this for yourself by opening any High ISO (i.e. 3200 or higher) image and then apply high Sharpening, but NO Luminance NR (i.e. 0). Compare the Develop module Fit view image to the Library module Fit view image and you will see that the Library view image is lighter.

    I have very few such images (on my Canon, there's no reason to capture raw above ISO 3200). But anyway, I don't see this difference between the two views. You do not get the sharpening previewed outside of Develop using Fit view, I do see a slight difference in that aspect (and since sharpening is affecting contrast, maybe that's what I'm seeing). And you have to view at 1:1 in Develop to get the most 'accurate' previews there. I have Sharpening set to 106 (looks dreadful) and NR off (who would do this?).

     

    Togglng between Develop and Library with this image set to fit, there is a slight visual difference but it's tiny. Toggling between the two at 1:1, they are visually identical. I can provide a screen capture if you wish. Note that all my images are DNG's with Fast Load Preview so maybe that affects the preview? 

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 3:50 PM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    I only used the high ISO and sharpening with no NR as a "worst case" test so it can be easily observed. It happens with ISO 100 images when using Shadows setting of about 50 or higher and/or high Exposure. The major issue is that Exported and Edit in PS files become lighter and do NOT match the image in the Develop module at Fit or 1:1.

     

    Try an Export or Edit in PS of any ISO image with some visible noise (even a tiny amount!). Compare the Edit in PS TIFF to the original raw image inside the LR Develop module at Fit view, or any other view. I can very clearly see a difference, with the Export or Edit in PS image being lighter in the shadow area. This has nothing to do with Library versus Develop views, since you are viewing both images in the Develop module, correct? The amount of difference may be small for most images, but it shouldn't be changing at all!

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Andrew Rodney
    1,387 posts
    Apr 16, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 4:03 PM   in reply to trshaner

    trshaner wrote:

     

    I only used the high ISO and sharpening with no NR as a "worst case" test so it can be easily observed.

    Understood. But I see no difference (other than a slight sharpness/contrast in Fit). At 1:1 the toggle between the two is identical.

     

     

    trshaner wrote:

    Try an Export or Edit in PS of any ISO image with some visible noise (even a tiny amount!). Compare the Edit in PS TIFF to the original raw image inside the LR Develop module at Fit view, or any other view.

    Here you go, which is which? I see no difference. I'm on a Mac, running an NEC SpectraView II (PA271).

     

    Screen grab of the Photoshop export versus Lightroom (Develop).

     

    http://digitaldog.net/files/PSvsLR.jpg

     

    http://digitaldog.net/files/PSvsLR.jpg

     

    Maybe we need to trade raws (DNGs)? Everything seems to work as expected this end.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 5:07 PM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    You are correct at 1:1 view in the Develop module the Edit in PS image file and original raw image look identical  I stand corrected. This is still an issue since having to use 1:1 view to make tonal adjustments in the Basic panel greatly increases the time required, and decreases the accuracy of these global settings. Here' an ISO 3200 image with Sharpening 50 and LUM NR 0. The Fit view images are noticeably different in the shadow area.

     

    In LR4.3 Develop Module Fit view:

     

                            CR2 Raw Original                          Edit in PS 16bit TIFF ProPhoto RGB

    Export_Noise_Lightening.jpg

     

    One possible solution is to initially use modest sharpening (25 or less) and heavy Luminace NR (50 or more) settings for making Basic panel adjustments of noisy images. At least then you will have a fairly accurate Develop module preview at Fit view and up with respect to overall image tonality. What's interesting is that noisy images exhibing this issue appear more accurate at Fit view in the Library module, at least with respect to how they appear once exported out of LR.

     

    Andrew, thanks for taking the time to help me work through this issue.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Andrew Rodney
    1,387 posts
    Apr 16, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 5:16 PM   in reply to trshaner

    trshaner wrote:

    This is still an issue since having to use 1:1 view to make tonal adjustments in the Basic panel greatly increases the time required, and decreases the accuracy of these global settings.

    Unfortunately, from day one, LR has always produced the most accurate previews in Develop and more so, at 1:1. Plus you want to work top down, so hopefully you can get the image pretty close using QD before even moving onto controlling noise and such. But if your goal is the most precise control visually, you need to be in Develop. The preview mechanism is somewhat unique there (the data is different). I suppose Adobe could make all the modules preview the same, but you'd see a big speed hit with the other modules which most would not like. This isn't radically different in Photoshop either. You want to be at 100%, or at the very least, even divisible of that setting for an accurate preview.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 7, 2013 10:21 PM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    I've been following another thread on why Lightroom is slow, and just read an FAQ that says that using 1:1 preview rendering on large monitors can slow down lightroom, and that users should consider using a 1:2 preview, or reducing the size of the window in LR on large monitors.

     

    However, reading this thread it would appear that we have a choice between slow and accurate. Since color and fidelity are important, this would sort of render the advice in the FAQ on performance a bad choice. What's the point in having faster performance if you don't have accurate color?

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 8, 2013 1:31 AM   in reply to wolpers0815

    Back to the OP, interesting as this other discussion is:

    After turning OpenGL off the problem with different blues (PS vs. LR Develop) disappeared

    That's good. But did you try to recalibrate and did it make any difference?

     

    The reason I keep coming back to this is that the first screenshot you posted had a severe color shift that AFAICT should not happen (the previously discussed purple shift notwithstanding). Even if you're working well outside Adobe RGB in Develop, the clipping in Library seems to me to happen very cleanly and without any visible or noticeable changes in on-screen color, including in this deep blue region.

     

    Or has anyone else with wide gamut monitors seen this happen?

     

    If there is a problem with the monitor profile, Lr Develop and PS should be equally affected.

     

     

    From my point of view Adobe should fix the OpenGL bug

    Indeed they should, but it may be out of their hands. With OpenGL on, the color transforms are performed in the GPU, and rely on the OpenGL implementation in the video driver. Or so the engineers say.

     
    |
    Mark as:

More Like This

  • Retrieving data ...

Bookmarked By (0)

Answers + Points = Status

  • 10 points awarded for Correct Answers
  • 5 points awarded for Helpful Answers
  • 10,000+ points
  • 1,001-10,000 points
  • 501-1,000 points
  • 5-500 points