I use Lightroom 4 and CS6 on a win7/64 PC. When I edit a Lightroom photo in CS6 and save it back to Lightroom as a PSD, I notice that the PSD is slightly more yellow than the original Lightroom image. This is verified in the PSD histogram, where the yellow portion is a little larger and uniform than the RAW version histogram. This happens whether I export in 16 bit AdobeRGB (1998), and Photoshop is also set to edit in 16 bit AdobeRGB (1998), or both are set to ProphotoRGB. The yellow shift can be seen when comparing a photo prior to and after Photoshop adjustment (no tonal adjustment made in Photoshop) in Lightroom and also when comparing the Lightroom photo and the picture in Photoshop as soon as it is imported. My monitor was calibrated about a month ago, so that is unlikely to be the problem. Can anyone tell me why this might be happening?
I am surprised that an Adobe forum has not grnered any attempt to provide help! I would like to add some info in hopes that some support can be generated:
Windows has a color management panel in the Control Panel that shows the monitor in use and, in the advanced tab of that panel, the device profiles available. I have never touched this panel. On my computer, even thought I NOW have the Lightroom export and Photoshop color settings set for Prophoto RGB, this Windows control panel says the monitor is set for sRGB. I don't know how this affects the windows software, or the function of my NVidia GTX 560 video card. Any idea if I am supposed to change the selection if I change the Adobe color space?
Also, I checked the RGB histogram readouts for a couple of pictures, comparing the Lightroom version and the Photoshop version, in order to verify my observation of the yellow shift. In all cases, the Red and green channel go up a little in Photoshop, and the blue channel goes down a little. For example, the R G and B channels in Lightroom for a single spot are 84.5, 78 and 70.02 respectively, while the same spot in Photoshop was 85.3, 78.4 and 68.3. Shouldn't they be the same if I made not changes in Photoshop?
I calibrate my monitor using the Spyder4 Pro.
I am surprised that an Adobe forum has not grnered any attempt to provide help
Keep in mind that discussions about how to "fix color management problems" or "how to do color management right" often turn nasty. I tend to avoid them for that reason.
Color-management is a difficult subject, and has so many variables and tradeoffs that there might actually be large number of ways to get things done. There might be one best way for YOU, but that almost takes an interview to determine what's most important to you.
Here are some thoughts that might help:
1. Color-management is done by individual applications, facilitated by the system.
2. Not every application does color management, and the ones that claim to do it don't all do it correctly or completely! Some even work properly with some color profiles and not others.
3. The act of calibration and profiling involves setting up some things that affect the entire system (the calibration part) and some things that the system maintains but which are used by those applications that do color management (the profile part).
4. There are quite a large number of settings, and they're all necessary and there for good reason. The only way to be sure of choosing the right settings for YOU is to understand how color-management works, whether to expect it to work in certain situations, and to make intelligent choices. There is no "one right way" to set all the options, no matter how many people will try to advise you to do things a particular way.
5. You will be tempted to give up understanding it and try to pick a set of options that "just work". Don't give up; there are no shortcuts.
Perhaps we should start by discussing what's important to you.
Do you print? Is it most important that what you see in Photoshop and Lightroom match your prints? Do you expect to match prints you make locally to those you send out for?
Is it important whether your applications match one another on the screen? Are you willing to make alternate application choices to help achieve that?
What browser(s) do you use to view your images? What other graphics applications do you use?
i don't use Lightroom so i wasn't able to follow your post
but if you open a known good tagged color reference image like the PDI WHACKED RGB (use the embeded profile) in Photoshop and Lightroom
both apps should display the PDI image the same (correctly)
is that happening
Don't know if I used this right, but here goes.
I downloaded the whacked image jpeg for windows. I imported it into Lightroom and Photshop. The both look fine. After resizing, both pictures looked visually to be exactly the same. I don't know how to get color measurement readings for colors in the same scale in both programs (I see the % basis in Lightroom and the 0-255 range in PS) . So I opened the Lightroom JPEG image into Photoshop and just saved it back to Lightroom as a psd. To my surprise, The color readings were exactly the same for the original JPEG and Psd saved from Photoshop. So, The only difference is that I generally convert a RAW image from Lightroom and save it as a PSD from Photoshop (and see a yellowing shift), while here, I converted a jpeg from lightroom to a psd from Photoshop. Does this imply that the problem is in the RAW conversion? Note: Both programs use ACR 7.3.
I intend to make prints of some of my pictures in the future, but at the moment, I make hi-def movies (about 40 minutes, with music, titles and special effects) using Photodex Proshow Gold, which I show using a bluray player and my HDTV. So I haven't explored the output to printer functions yet. At this point then, I just want my Lightroom, Photoshop and HDTV versions of my pictures to be exactly the same. I know that the TV has a larger color space than my monitor, but, step 1, I figure that Lightroom and Photoshop, both color managed Adobe products, should display a picture the same if no changes are made in photoshop other than saving in PSD format. I use IE and Firefox browsers. These are all first rate programs and would prefer to continue to use them exclusively.
whacked image jpeg for windows. I imported it into Lightroom and Photshop. The both look fine.
if LR and Ps are a dead-on visual "match" on the tagged Whacked RGB file -- that indicates that your monitor profile is at least okay, and your apps are using the embedded profile
more than likely you are having ICC profile (work flow) issues, make sure you are 1st embedding the correct profile, and 2nd that you are using that profile when opening them in Photoshop
by Photoshop Edit> Assign (various) Profiles, you may get a clue what's going on if you stumble on the correct profile
you've got some digging to do...
Something to keep in mind is that Internet Explorer is not a fully color-managed program. They made a start - the application now (since IE9) interprets color profiles embedded in images. But it does nothing about web page elements other than image data, and it ALWAYS assumes the output device implements sRGB IEC61966-2.1, no matter what your monitor profile (i.e., it ignores your monitor profile).
FireFox actually has enough savvy to do the whole job right, but last time I looked the configuration isn't set to do that out of the box. You have to go into about:config and make a change to gfx.color_management.mode (i.e., to 1) in order to get it to FULLY color-manage web material (images and web page elements alike).
Lightroom and Photoshop definitely SHOULD be showing you the same things. If they're not, chances are good you have a poorly formed monitor color profile (the beasts are complicated and may cause problems with some software), or have some settings that are wrong in one or both programs. I don't use Lightroom so I can't speak to that.
You should also know that Photoshop itself, when you use the ProPhoto RGB color profile and certain GPU settings, can display inaccurate results on the screen - though yellowing an image isn't something I've seen reported to come from that. Usually it's more along the lines of purple and green tints in areas that should be gray.
I see you 've made some non-default choices for your Photoshop color management settings. Whether they're better for you, or whether you've touched all the settings that can matter, I don't know (for example, you're not showing the Worfkow Options for Camera Raw, to confirm whether you have it making conversions into the ProPhoto RGB color space). Nor are you describing the steps you take if Photoshop prompts you because of a difference in the incoming image color space and the one you've set up as your preferred working space.
Practically speaking, there are ways to optimize a system so that there's more color consistency between applications (even those that don't color-manage, in some cases) while retaining accuracy. There are also ways to maximize the color gamut displayed in fully color-managed applications when a wide gamut monitor is used, which may lead to things looking different in non- or partially-color-managed applications. The byword is that, given the state of the art, you have to be prepared to find a compromise that suits you.
If I understand you correctly, you are asking if Lightroom is set to export in ProphotoRGB and Photoshop is set to use the ProphotoRGB color space. Yes, I believe they are. The Photoshop color settings page snip is in my opening statement. I have attached the Lightroom preferences page here. They seem consistent. Is there another PS setting that is important to this issue?
I opened a photo into Photoshop and assigned different profiles as you suggested. Only the prophotoRGP profile looked ok. The others all looked really wierd. So I guess PS is using Prophoto.
I am not sure if I understand you when you say ICC profile (workflow) issues. I have attached two pages from the Windows color management system. Remember, I my monitor is calibrated using Spyder4pro (correctly I hope), and I THINK the color management devices page shows that the calibrated monitor is the default. I am using the prophotoRGB color space, but the advanced page shows sRGB. Could this be the problem?
I can’t respond to your comments on the browsers as I haven’t found a problem there yet.
Any idea what GPU settings I should look at vs. the Photoshop profile to determine if that is the cause for the color shift? I have never adjusted the GPU (NVIDEA 560). All the settings seem to be nominal, e.g., 50%
If you mean that I am using Prophoto as a non-default choice for Photoshop, that is correct. I only changed the LR and Photoshop color space preferences to do this. Are you suggesting there are other changes I must make? BTW, my Dell 2007wfp is a decent monitor, but I don’t believe it would be considered wide gamut. But I am considering purchasing a larger monitor with a wider gamut soon, so I need to improve my knowledge base here.
Not sure what you mean by Workflow Options for Camera Raw. Lightroom is based on camera raw and I do all those adjustments in Lightroom. But just in case I have attached the Camera Raw preferences from Photoshop. Do you see anything that might be wrong?
Photoshop has not prompted me to change anything when I edit the LR image. So I assume that confirms that both are set to the same color space. Am I right?
You mention that there are ways to optimize a system so that there's more color consistency between applications (even those that don't color-manage, in some cases) while retaining accuracy. Can you tell me a good source for learning about them?
it is easy to tell what source profile Ps is using (see my previous PDI link):
i don't want to get bogged down in workflow/settings (but it does appear you are running a factory Dell "Default" monitor profile, not a custom monitor profile? not that that should cause Ps to display differently than LR)
my original point was to verify that Lightroom and Ps are both using the correct tagged ICC source profile, and they are displaying the Whacked RGB visually identical -- you have confirmed they are working properly using the Whacked RGB PDI target
ICC profile (workflow) issues can be any of the settings inbetween that skew color management...
my next test would be to process your RAW image into Ps (where you see the color "error"), Save As .tif and open that .tif in Lightroom
at that point Lightroom should visually show the same "error" as Ps (as they both display the PDI visually the same)
if it doesn't i would look at how Lightroom is applying the Saved .tif embedded source profile
and your ACR settings (but then maybe the clue is in your LR settings, i don't know)
According to Datacolor, the WFP-1 (default) line on the color management devices page indicates that my computer is using the calibration settings set by the Spyder4pro. But I agree, either way, both programs should display the same even if they are both wrong.
So, let me know if what I did conforms to what you asked:
I don’t know how to use Bridge as I use Lightroom for my photo management. So I opened my photo that I have been testing with using Photoshop. Since the RAW image was modified previously in Lightroom, it opened in ACR with all the edits I made in Lightroom. I was not asked any questions about whether I wanted that, or about embedded profiles. BUT, there was a difference. I detected a brighter (yellower???) look to the ACR image vs. the Lightroom image. Also, I noticed that the ACR image histogram showed some pink clipping at the highlights end. When I selected the right triangles for both the Lightroom image and the ACR image, the ACR image showed some blown out objects that the Lightroom image did not. Shouldn’t they be the same if the ACR settings are the same as the Lightroom settings, and Lightroom is based on ACR? This was a surprise.
I then opened the ACR image into PS, saved it as a Tiff, and imported it into Lightroom. Sure enough, I still visually see the Lightroom RAW image to be slightly less yellow (less bright??) than the tiff, as it is vs. the psd from Photoshop. I then took measurements of the RGB settings for the three pictures within Lightroom. Yep, the PSD and Tiff images were the same or off by .1%, as against 1 to 3% different from the RAW file.
The ACR vs. RAW Lightroom comparisons were by eye, but if my impression is correct, does this mean that the ACR in Lightroom is different than the one in Photoshop??? They are both version 7.3, however, PS says 7.3.071, but I don’t know that Lightroom simply doesn’t show the suffix. Also, both say there are no updates available.
I Just noticed something odd. The export setting for Lightroom and the Color Setting Working Space for Photoshop is ProphotoRGB. If I open one of my raw images in PSD, it opens with the Prophoto space. But, I just opened the PDI you suggested earlier and it opened in sRGB. And when I look at the Color Setting with no image open in Photoshop, the Color Setting is sRGB. Might that be an issue, or does PS just revert to sRGB if no photo is open? And why did the PDI open in sRGB without a question from PS?
I hope you have another idea, cause I have no clue as to what to do.
I don’t know how to use Bridge
just drag a folder of RAW files onto the Bridge .app icon (it should open and display thumbnails)
click once on a thumbnail to Preview it
2xClick on a thumbnail to open it in ACR
or right+Click on a thumbnail> Open With camera RAW
when it opens in Ps, it should look very close to the ACR preview, saved .tif should "match" in Lightroom and Ps
I then opened the ACR image into PS, saved it as a Tiff, and imported it into Lightroom. Sure enough, I still visually see the Lightroom RAW image to be slightly less yellow (less bright??) than the tiff,
i couldn't follow that... you mean ACR previews the RAW image differently than Photoshop
can you post a screenshot of your ACR window alongside the file in Photoshop (make sure "Document Profile" is showing in Photoshop's lower left corner and we can see the entire Photoshop top window)
No. The ACR image and the conversion to PS look pretty much the same.
Didn’t bother with Bridge as I didn’t think it would matter. But I found something that may be an issue.
I noticed that the default color space for PS appears to be sRGB, even though I changed the color setting to Prophoto in the Color Setting box and clicked Ok many photos ago, and the photos have been opening in PS as Prophoto. I say this because when I check the color setting with no picture open in PS, the color space says sRGB. This may not have affected the problem at hand but, just in case, I changed the color setting again to prophoto and established a new profile with prophoto as the RGB space, and that is now what is in effect as I now explain what I did with a new test picture:
The sky in all of the last 4 photos are more purple than the LR version before editing in PS (of course, I made no changes in PS), the building is a little yellower and the shadows are a little darker.
the default color space for PS appears to be sRGB
no reason to speculate Ps RGB "default"
Edit> Color Settings> Working Spaces: RGB (profile noted is your default)
your screen shots don't have embedded ICC profiles so I can't see exactly what you are talking about
your ACR looks like it is applying the sRGB profile
and your Ps window is using ProPhotoRGB
there is a reason i asked that you include ACR and Ps windows in the same screenshot so i don't get confused trying to put a puzzle together
- I developed a picture in Lightroom (picture 1)
- I opened it into Photoshop (picture 2). Note the sky color change, a little yellowing of the building, and the shadows are a little darker
what do you mean "i developed a picture in Lightroom"
you mean you Saved a RGB jpg/tiff in Lr
you embedded an ICC profile
you opened that image in Ps (using the embedded profile) and there is even a slight difference in appearance (because i would think they should be a dead-on visual match)
again, i will recommend setting the windows up side-by-side and take a one screenshot of both Lr and Ps windows showing all the pertinent info (embed the correct profile), and upload it so we can see exactly what you are talking about...
The only screens that show the embedded ICC profile are those taken from ACR or PS. That is, photos 2 (the ACR shot), 3 and 4 in the previous post. Lightroom does not show this anywhere in the program, that I can see. However, it is my understanding that Lightroom’s native color space is 16 bit ProphotoRGB, and I send edited Lightroom photos to Photoshop as 16 bit, Prophoto psds (set in preferences). I used the word develop because the editor module in Lightroom is called the Develop module. Sorry for the confusion, should have said edited.
My camera most likely uses the sRGB color space. I believe most cameras do that. When I opened directly into ACR, I am guessing it picks that up, yet, ACR also picked up the Lightroom edits I made (remember, Lightroom is basically a RAW processor). It’s not clear to me why a direct open into ACR recognizes the edits (I believe they are stored in an XMP sidecar file), but not the color space change.
So I did two things:
Hope this is the view you need.
OOOPS! JUST REALIZED i MISINFORMED YOU WITH POINT 2. BOTH IMAGES SHOW A PHOTO IN LIGHTROOM, AND THE SAME PHOTO IMMEDIATELY OPENED IN PHOTOSHOP.
i am pretty sure the camera profile doesn't matter if you shoot RAW and open in ACR
what does matter is the profile you set up in ACR
and you didn't include the ACR window to confirm your profile
also, your new screenshots don't seem to have an embedded profile
i am having difficulty trying to follow your outline, but
take a screenshot of your ACR and Photoshop windows side by side
this is to confirm they "match" (and using the same profile)
Photoshop, Save As a copy of your RGB test document in tif or jpg (embed the profile)
open that copy in both Lr and Ps (use embedded profile)
take a screenshot of your Lr and Ps windows side by side
this is to confirm they "match" (and Ps Source Profile)
embed the proper profile in your screenshots and post them
until you do this i don't think i can help much, maybe someone else can drop in
Sorry for the confusion, As I mentioned, I somehow wrote gibberish in point 2 previous, but corrected in the OOPS! edit.
Before proceeding, wanted to check. The displayed ICC profile you need is the one shown on the bottom of the PS photo. Is that correct? If yes, that info is not found anywhere I can fine it for Lightroom.
Don’t know why you haven’t responded to my query, but I will try to follow your instructions to see what happens:
My previous query goes to your next request “embed the proper profile in your screenshots and post them.” I assume you mean the links shown as the bottom of the PS images. Am I wrong?
if embedding the profile is a headache, forget it, the way you combined both windows and info is more useful for comparison as any profile issue would apply to both windows
ACR and Photoshop look very close (i am not positive we should see or expect an exact match), but i don't see a problem here
Lightroom and Photoshop look like a match (you probably should have had them at the same zoom %)
it looks to me like everything is working as expected so i would suspect a profile/workflow issue
that's something you would need to learn how to troubleshoot on a case-by-case basis when it pops up (by verifying the software is applying the correct source profile, and converting its colors to the monitor profile)
i may be wrong, but that is my read on your tests...
Don’t know why you haven’t responded to my query, but I will try to follow your instructions to see what happens:
- I opened a previously untouched RAW photo using PS. It opened in ACR. I immediately opened it into PS. I then opened the RAW photo again to get the RAW image again and produced the side by side screenshot. I did detect something I haven’t noticed before. To my eye, the sky of the ACR image seems a little brighter than the PS image. Do you see that?
It's easy to prove that your screenshot has an equally bright image on left and right. Open the screenshot in Photoshop. Rectangle-marquee the Ps-displayed image and Cmd/Ctrl+J to copy to a new layer then drag that into alignment over the ACR-displayed image. Toggle the top layer off and on to see that there's no difference. Also, here's a screenshot with the top layer in Difference mode. The big black rectangle is where the images overlap - black means zero difference.
I did detect something I haven’t noticed before. To my eye, the sky of the ACR image seems a little brighter than the PS image.
Since it's shown by Conroy to be in fact not at all different, the possible explanation is that your monitor's response isn't consistent from one place to the other.
It could be that your viewing angle is affecting the apparent brightness, but even if it is not, slight differences from one place to another on a given monitor are pretty common, actually, though they're more often seen at the center vs. near the edge.
Just in case, I did a complete monitor calibration before doing the following. I performed the difference blend test you described and, on that picture, also found a black image. The measured color ranged from 1 to 2 out of 255 on the black area. So on that particular area, some, but much difference between the pictures. However, I think that this has occured because this particular picture was too pale to properly expose the problem.
Also, as I noted in my January 26th post, when I compare the same spot anywhere on a RAW Lightroom image with its PSD saved from PS, the color readings are always different and the pictures look different. To verify this again, I took a different photo from LR, with a more pronounced sky, to compare it with the ACR image opened directly from PS. The side-by side screen shot is attached. When I performed the difference mode test this time, the color measurements (I guess luminance) per channel showed differences of 5 to 20 units as I moved the curser over the sky, and the black looked a little more grey to me. I believe this displays the problem more clearly. Also, when I compared the color % of the same spot on the photoshop image to the psd saved from PS, the readings were .5 to 2.5 units apart.
When I move my head around to view the monitor at different angles, there are smoe changes in a picture. Also, if I take a picture and move it around the screen, the colors change a bit. However, when Imove a PS and LR image to the same location on the screen, or look at them from the same angle, they still appear to be different. So the color changes here are just a function of the limited viewing angle on a LCD. I still feel that a setting in PS or the monitor color space is causing the problem, assuming LR and PS share the same ACR.
The side by side images in reply #24 are so obviously very different that there's no need to calculate the difference to determine whether a difference exists. Your choice of picture in reply #20 could not have hidden the huge difference that's being displayed in reply #24.
I think I know why the difference was more subtle in the post 20. The picture in post 20 was not enhanced in LR. It is as it came out of the camera in both views. The picture in post 24 was first fixed in LR before I opened it in PS (ACR, as it is a raw file). Therefore, the colors are more vibrant. I guess that is why the problem is more obvious. Does that knowledge offer any ideas?
The differences in post #20 were less than subtle. The side by side displayed images were identical apart from tiny variations that can be explained by the JPEG compression of the screenshot that you posted.
The side by side displayed images in post #24 are grossly different. If the one raw file is being displayed in both Camera Raw and Lightroom then the programs are making different adjustments to produce their images.
I don't understand what yu mean by "relative" in this situation. My thought is that whatever my monitor cannot handle, it should show the same weakness in both LR and PS. So the images might be a subset of the prophoto gamut, but it should be the same subset in both programs and should look the same. Am I wrong?
It was suggested that I remove and reinstall my PS 6 Extended, the thought being that ACR or something else did not install properly. Any thoughts about that?
I guess it won't do any harm to remove and re-install. Do it anyway to set your mind at rest. Make sure have matching Camera Raw and Lightroom. For example, CR 7.3 and Lr 4.3.
PROBLEM SOLVED, BUT I'M NOT SURE WHY!
I learned a lot about settings and color management in this discussion, and I thank you all for trying to help. After trying all the suggested ideas, I decided to reinstall PS, assuming that it did not install correctly in the beginning. However, i was unable to reinstall it. After some assistance from the second level tech at Adobe, we determined that something corrupted my operating system, likely the PS uninstall. Sooooo, I had to wipe my hard drive and reinstalled all the software. But, I am happy to say that after the reinstall and monitor calibration, the Lightroom and PS images now have the same colors. Thanks to all again.