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Currently Being Moderated

Premiere on a SAN, lag issues

Feb 12, 2013 8:04 AM

Greetings!

 

I'm a video editor and motion graphics artist for a corporate company that just purchased a NexGen SAN system (it was a great deal price wise). It's basically a RAID of SSD's with a RAID of regular hard drives for long term storage. When files are used frequently, they are copied to the SSD's. My HP Z400 has a Fiber 10Gbps PCIe card installed and I.T. used a software package called metaSAN (Tiger Technology) to monitor the system (the drive is mounted as a letter drive). When I'd copy my Premiere and After Effects projects over, not only would I get horrible playback with uncompressed footage, but the lag for scrolling through my files was terrible. However, I could load each QuickTime uncompressed file in QuickTime player and it plays back 100% smooth. Only in Premiere it stutters.

 

I.T. eventually returned the metaSAN software due to backup software incompatibility. Now the SAN drive is just mounted via the same letter drive. Not only is playback worse, but I locks up Premiere when I hit play. When I load QuickTime files vis the QuickTime player, the files play back terrible.  I've tried several combinations of cache locally, cache on the SAN, Premiere project on the SAN, Premiere Project locally. Basically, I'm back to editing 100% with my GSpeed RAID10 drive.

 

I've read a lot on Premiere and it's problems with XSAN, but I haven't found anything on a regular SAN. Why would this happen? I.T. is 100% Windows based and everything is on a domain (I did do a test with my computer off the domain and same issue).

 

Is there a workaround or a fix?

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 12, 2013 8:45 AM   in reply to ScottRwn

    I don't know if any of this will give you any direct help, but I have some saved links from previous discussions

     

    No current version of Premiere works properly, if at all, over a network

    -you may NOT "map" your My Documents folder to a network drive

    -you MUST give all users administrator accounts to use Premiere

    -you MAY also need to... http://forums.adobe.com/thread/969395

    -http://forums.adobe.com/thread/771151

    -http://forums.adobe.com/thread/851602

    -a work around, of sorts http://forums.adobe.com/thread/957523

    -and not on a "domain" http://forums.adobe.com/thread/858977

     

    Adobe Anywhere http://forums.adobe.com/message/4682127

    -Announced September 2012 for "future versions" of Premiere Pro

    -NO information on pricing or availability date

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 12, 2013 9:37 AM   in reply to ScottRwn

    >not an admin on my computer

     

    That is a real problem, since PPro and Encore must be run with an Admin account (at least in the Win world, I don't know about Mac)

     

    Not only must you be using an Admin account, Encore has a further requirement http://forums.adobe.com/thread/969395

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 6, 2013 9:15 AM   in reply to ScottRwn

    Can you copy the files and work locally? As John mentioned, working in a SAN with shared media is currently not supported.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 6, 2013 12:59 PM   in reply to ScottRwn

    Rather than saying "You didn't do your homework."

     

    But...that's actually what happened, isn't it?  Why sugar-coat it into something it isn't?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 6, 2013 1:43 PM   in reply to ScottRwn

    It's one thing to have users be able to bring up a project after you are through it (network storage). It's another if you are working on the same media at the same time as other editors (SAN).


    If you want Premiere Pro to operate in a SAN environment, please add your voice to others that want this by filling out this form: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 6, 2013 1:54 PM   in reply to ScottRwn

    Scott, what is the data rate of the system?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 6, 2013 2:16 PM   in reply to ScottRwn

    OK, it sounds like a bottleneck in your system--a system component, the media you are using, or a combo of both. You are working with Animation codec files? That would indicate a good source of a bottleneck. Animation codec files should really only be used for high end, lossless graphics or animations. It is overkill for standard video editing. Can you try the camera's native codec?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 6, 2013 2:31 PM   in reply to ScottRwn

    ScottRwn wrote:

     

    Well on my Mac at home, I use ProResHQ for everything After Effects. Here (using Windows 7), I render everything out as Animation Codec for Premiere. So I used footage plus my animation builds from After Effects in Premiere. We shoot on the EX3 so bitrates are fine.

     

    I can edit Animation Codec all day long on my GSpeed RAID10.

    Of course, you cannot expect the same performance with Animation files on a dedicated RAID vs. a SAN. Although you can playback an Animation codec just fine on your GSPEED, it's not an optimal workflow for taking it to the SAN. Furthermore, every editor I know render out AE comps in a codec more friendly for editing (ProRes for Mac/DNxHD for PC) and never place an Animation codec file in a Timeline. Since ProRes 4444 came out, I have not even found a good use for the Animation codec on the Mac. On the PC side, definitely look into the free DNxHD codecs. They are much more lightweight and will serve your workflow much better, and with high quality. This will cure much of your "stuttering" problems, I believe.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 6, 2013 2:40 PM   in reply to ScottRwn

    No problem! BTW, you can encode ProRes files on a PC now. Check this out: http://www.cinemartin.com/cinec/

     

    As a Machead who went to Cupertino High School, lived near Jobs and Woz, worked on the FCP team on 2 versions of Final Cut Studio, I hear you regarding a love for Macs! That said, once you're working in Premiere Pro or After Effects, the OS does not seem to matter to me as much any more. It's just those little gotchas like working with ProRes.

     

    Good luck!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 7, 2013 6:20 PM   in reply to ScottRwn

    I'd like to offer (or ask for) some clarifications.

    Of course, you cannot expect the same performance with Animation files on a dedicated RAID vs. a SAN.

    Who said? Why not? Half the point of a SAN is to bring local-drive performance to the network (the other half is sharing it), and to have comparable performance to a local RAID. Of course, there's a big "it depends" - the SAN has to be optimized, built of sufficiently fast components, avoid excessive load, etc.

     

     

    ScottRwn wrote:

    I've read a lot on Premiere and it's problems with XSAN

    Where did you find a lot of reading about Premiere problems with XSAN? I've been researching PPro+XSAN for months and found perhaps 2 threads discussing problems, all other evidence point to it working fine. I'm not talking about sharing projects and media, though. PPro CS6 does not support project sharing and you have to be careful about sharing media. In this regard yes, there are definitely problems, but this thread hasn't been about project and/or media sharing.

     

    By the way, we've been using PPro CS6 on a SAN and NAS here at our facility for months. Our Mac Pro clients connect over fiber to an old Avid Unity 4.2, and the projects reside on the NAS. PPro has been working well, in fact being more stable than our Avid bays. We're in preparations to retire the Unity and migrate our facility to PPro+XSAN with the help of a system integrator, although yes, we have to largely give up shared workflows (Adobe Anywhere notwithstanding).

     

     

    Speaking of which, I'm also a bit surprised that Kevin recommended sending Adobe SAN support feature requests - as a fairly involved end-user it seems obvious that Adobe is very focused on Adobe Anywhere which will be their answer to shared workflows. I have no expectations from Adobe to offer anything new as far as SAN until they release Anywhere and we assess what it can (and cannot) do.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 11, 2013 5:42 AM   in reply to ScottRwn

    Hi Scott!

     

    I have the same problem like You or Your IT-Dept.......working with Adobe Premiere Pro over a central storage

    http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1166877

     

    I will give a try to some tests in the upcoming weeks with some constellations of Hard- & Software.

     

    As I`ve read, You are working on a HP Z400 machine so did You ever try RGS (RemoteGraphicSoftware) from HP itself?

    http://www.hp.com/united-states/campaigns/workstations/remote-graphics -software.html

    If You are working with RGS the HP Z400 is attached directly to the storage and with a thin client You are connecting to the Z400, this is somethin like a performant remote desktop

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28RMuXqRemc

     

    Adobe is working on a solution like RGS and it`s called "Adobe Anywhere" but it`s just known that Adobe will release this in 2013 but no-one knows the releasedate.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 11, 2013 10:52 AM   in reply to ScottRwn

    DLpres2 wrote:

     

    I'd like to offer (or ask for) some clarifications.

    Of course, you cannot expect the same performance with Animation files on a dedicated RAID vs. a SAN.

    Who said? Why not? Half the point of a SAN is to bring local-drive performance to the network (the other half is sharing it), and to have comparable performance to a local RAID. Of course, there's a big "it depends" - the SAN has to be optimized, built of sufficiently fast components, avoid excessive load, etc.

    The point is to not use Animation codec for intermediate use. It's somply not done in today's post environments. As far as data rates go, you can get faster disk speeds on a dedicated RAID over a SAN, which also has to take redundancy into account. SANs can be fast enough for standard video files, but the Animation codec has a very high data rate. Too much for some SAN systems for reliable playback and redundancy.

     

     

    ScottRwn wrote:

    I've read a lot on Premiere and it's problems with XSAN

    Where did you find a lot of reading about Premiere problems with XSAN? I've been researching PPro+XSAN for months and found perhaps 2 threads discussing problems, all other evidence point to it working fine. I'm not talking about sharing projects and media, though. PPro CS6 does not support project sharing and you have to be careful about sharing media. In this regard yes, there are definitely problems, but this thread hasn't been about project and/or media sharing.

    You're right, there's not a lot of info out there, but here's what one of our engineers said:

     

    "The bad news is that our XSan testing has been pretty limited. Most  of the information

    that we know about it has come indirectly from  customers. In short, it works with

    Premiere Pro. I'm certain that  there are some caveats around configuration and usage

    (as there is  with any network storage), but the details of that are largely  unknown.

    The good news is that next week we'll be installing an XSan  in our compatibility lab so

    we'll have much better information about  its use soon. We have some very large

    customers that need to use  their existing XSan storage with Premiere Pro, so we are

    definitely  motivated to make sure it's compatible. So much so, that we intend  to

    demonstrate a Premiere Pro / XSan workflow at IBC this year.


    The bottom line is this - although we don't know much detail about  XSan and Premiere

    Pro integration now, we will shortly and it's our  intention to make certain that it

    works well."

     



    DLpres2 wrote:

     

    Speaking of which, I'm also a bit surprised that Kevin recommended sending Adobe SAN support feature requests - as a fairly involved end-user it seems obvious that Adobe is very focused on Adobe Anywhere which will be their answer to shared workflows. I have no expectations from Adobe to offer anything new as far as SAN until they release Anywhere and we assess what it can (and cannot) do.

     

    Of course, I cannot comment on any future products, however, any feature request is valid including traditional SAN workflows.

    Thanks for sharing your experience DLpres2.

     

    Scott, let us know if you have any trouble going forward.

     
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  • joe bloe premiere
    4,391 posts
    Dec 6, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 11, 2013 11:35 AM   in reply to Kevin Monahan

    Interesting how things propagate on these forums!

     

    The above text originated from an email I received in July, 2011

    from Mitch Wood in response to a query regarding XSan use:

    email.png

     

    Here is the thread where I presented the info on 1/5/12 (with Mitch's approval):

    http://forums.adobe.com/message/4120044#4120044

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 11, 2013 6:15 PM   in reply to ScottRwn

    ScottRwn wrote:

    Something is not configured correctly and I'm running out of ideas.

    Something is not configured correctly and it's out of your control...

     

     

    ScottRwn wrote:

     

    The point of my asking in this forum is to gather facts on whether or not CS6 works with a SAN. As an editor/motion graphics artist, I'm playing IT to get my workflow working fast. Since our IT department has no idea what Premiere or After Effects are, I'm having to research this problem. 

     

    Premiere can definitely run on a SAN. The devil is in the details, and there's a million of them. One of the simpler things to do, like Kevin said, is to try abandoning Animation in favor of ProRes4444. If that works for you, great. Another simple option is to avoid the IT dept. hassle and edit off your GSpeed. It may well be that PPro CS6 can work in certain Mac SAN configurations but is doomed on Windows networks.

     

    Many users and editorial departments are in your situation, unfortunately, where they're at the mercy of the IT people. They may be experts on SQL data deduplication but are clueless about video. You need true cooperation and willingness to research and hire the right consultants/integrators if you want a good working system.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 11, 2013 6:55 PM   in reply to Kevin Monahan

     

    Kevin Monahan wrote:

    The point is to not use Animation codec for intermediate use. It's somply not done in today's post environments.

     

    I guess we should stop using it, then :-)  Actually you're right, I have been phasing it out at our facility. When we use it, it's for its intended purpose - rendering graphics with alpha. I agree that it's a dubious choice as an intermediate video codec.

     

    I'm also glad that one of our clients (a Fortune 500 company) stopped asking for AVI Cinepak files a few months ago :-)

     

    You're right, there's not a lot of info out there, but here's what one of our engineers said

    Joe beat me to it... I'm very familiar with this comment from Mitch Wood, and as Joe pointed out, it's nearly 2 years old. I wrote to Mitch and never heard back, I'll touch base again with Van Bedient (who's been very helpful) and see if he can help.

     

    As far as data rates go, you can get faster disk speeds on a dedicated RAID over a SAN, which also has to take redundancy into account. SANs can be fast enough for standard video files, but the Animation codec has a very high data rate. Too much for some SAN systems for reliable playback and redundancy.

     

    A SAN will be slightly slower than the same storage mounted directly, but you confused the cause. Taking redundancy into account is what RAID does (RAID0 notwithstanding). A RAID5 DAS will be slower than a RAID0 DAS, and conversely, you can run a SAN without redundancy (just look at any Avid Unity SAN with workspace mirroring disabled).

     

    You're right that some or most SANs are slower than typical latest-generation DAS, but the point I'm trying to make is that it's all in the details. 8Gb fiber is becoming commonplace, and DVS, Hitachi or GVG will gladly build you a (very expensive) SAN that will handle Animation codec as well as multiple streams of uncompressed 4K.

     

    I don't want people finding this thread and concluding that PPro CS6 + SAN = fail (it doesn't help Adobe sales either ;-) . Premiere is fairly storage-agnostic as far as NLEs go, but networked video storage is complicated. There are many parameters, limitations, and considerations that make the difference between a working and a non-working solution, as Scott has been experiencing.

     

    I'd like to reinstate that I'm delighted by the communication, cooperation and vibe I've been getting from Adobe nowadays, from staffers in the forums to corporate policy. Better by leaps and bounds than a certain fruit company.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 12, 2013 11:47 AM   in reply to ScottRwn

    Hi guys,

    Some new info hit the back channels last night, hope it's helpful. Here's what I've got:

     

    If the Xsan is already set up for FCP – it will work at the same level with Premiere Pro. There is no real difference in behavior between FCP and Premiere Pro as soon as the volume is mounted.  The must important part of using a NLE on Xsan is the way it should be set up for video post-production. Considerations include:

     

    • Block size
    • No Spanning tree on the private network
    • Spotlight off
    • RAID configuration (4 Identical LUNs per Storage Pool)
    • Round Robin data allocation

     

    If you're deploying a new Xsan (this means controllers that are Xsan controlled--rare these days) see this article: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2770

     

    If it's an Xsan client on a StorNext FS, see this PDF: White Paper: Preserving your MAC storage infrastructure while adopting Adobe Premiere Pro CS6.

     

    More resources on this page: http://www.quantum.com/Solutions/Apple/index.aspx

     

    Here's a wehsite with lotss of XSAN experts on it: http://www.xsanity.com

     
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