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CS6 CS5.5 Export PDF stripping embedded profile

Feb 24, 2013 9:38 AM

I am trying to figure what's going on with Indesign File> Export PDF is stripping one of my embedded ICC profiles.

 

My test document has four tagged Photoshop RGB .jpg objects (sRGB, AdobeRGB, ProPhotoRGB, WhackedRGB).

 

Indesign working space RGB is sRGB.

 

OUTPUT SETTINGS:

 

Output.jpg

 

GENERAL: Create Tagged PDF

COMPRESSION: Do not downsample; None

 

Yet Acrobat Object Inspector is reading the formerly tagged sRGB object as Device RGB.

It reads the other three tagged objects correctly.

 

It also does this in Indesign 5.5.

I want all to include ALL tagged source profiles as noted in my above screenshot setting.

 

Inspector.jpg

 

My .indd and more screenshots and exported problem .pdf are ZIP HERE

 
Replies 1 2 3 Previous Next
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2013 9:49 AM   in reply to gator soup

    Does it behave any differently if you use the PDF/X-4 setting?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2013 12:02 PM   in reply to gator soup

    If you place untagged content into ID it is presumed to be in the current working space -- you have to have some profile assumption for output. And you cannot have more than one output intent for a document, so if the tagged profile is a mismatch it is not already using the output intent.

     

    Seems to me the X-4 preset is behaving correctly.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2013 2:06 PM   in reply to gator soup

    OK, so what you are saying is you want your tagged images to retain the tags, and the untagged images to be assumed in the PDF to have the deviceRGB tag, is that correct? Or do you want them to have no tag at all? Seems to me the RIP needs something on which to base a conversion, and I'm not sure waht it would do with either Device RGB or no tag at all.

     

    We are starting to get outside my comfort zone here, but it sounds like you are not happy with PDF/X-4 because it seems to tag the untagged to make them behave the way they appear in the document in ID. I think I can accept the logic in that, but I can also understand that you might not and that you would want the numbers passed untagged so they would be presumed to be in whatever the default space used by the RIP might be, unpredictable as that is.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2013 3:18 PM   in reply to gator soup

    I don't work for Adobe, and I can't speak for them, but I would guess that some of the confusion here may come from a need to "simplify" the language used in the dialogs so it will fit.

     

    You might want to write this up as a bug: Adobe - Feature Request/Bug Report Form

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2013 3:27 PM   in reply to gator soup

    I skimmed (not read thoroughly) your linked article. I think I understand where you are going, but I wonder how relevant this is in the real world for ID users. My presumption is that if you are building a file in ID you want it to output the way it looks on screen (at least I do), which means I do want untagged images to get tagged into the document working space on export so that the color renders as I intend.

     

    And, of course, there's always the caveat that one shouldn't forget to tag images withthe correct profile when they're saved to begin with, but that's a completely different discussion.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 25, 2013 8:49 AM   in reply to gator soup

    In this lengthy thread it finally turned out (detected by A.R.) that

    Photoshop PDF might be buggy:

     

    http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1141062?start=0&tstart=0

     

    Now we are talking about InDesign PDFs, and according to Gator

    these are buggy as well.

    Here, these exports are correct, but my apologies, done by CS2,

    which works for me flawlessly (*one exception) since many years.

     

    http://docs-hoffmann.de/colpdf27022008.pdf

     

    This doc shows on p.6 six images in these colorspaces:

    sRGB

    aRGB (AdobeRGB)

    ISO Coated

    Euroscale Coated

    Black Ink ISO Coated (Gray)

    Black Ink Euroscale Coated (Gray)

     

    Document space:

    sRGB

    ISO Coated v2 (ECI)

    *) Gray: not available

     

    Export to PDF:

    No color conversion

    Include all RGB and tagged source CMYK profiles 

     

    PDF analysis shows:

    ICC-analysis.png

    Images are based on ICC profiles  (not Device color) for

    sRGB

    aRGB

    ISO Coated

    Euroscale Coated

    *) Gray profiles are generally ignored by InDesign CS2

     

    'Embedded files none' doesn't mean that no profiles are embedded.

    The file size is about 3.5 MByte because of the embedded CMYK

    profiles (converting all images to ProPhoto reduces the file size to

    350kByte).

     

    By the way:

    Using several untagged RGB images for different color spaces in

    the same PDF is in my humble opinion not the least helpful -

    it's only confusing.

     

    Should the old version C2 work correctly, whereas new versions

    are buggy?

     

    Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
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    Feb 25, 2013 5:14 PM   in reply to gator soup

    Output> PDF/X> "Output Intent Profile Name" seems to require a profile (Destination Space) -- my PDF images are already in their final Destination Spaces, and since those spaces are different and I don't want any changes whatsoever, this is very confusing

    The output intent is the profile of the press the job is intended for—or the profile that's expected to be used for converting RGB objects to CMYK on output. A different destination profile could be chosen at output, but there can only be one destination.

     

    If you want everything tagged why are you placing untagged images? When you export PDF/X-4, untagged images  get the document's profile because the X-4 standard requires every object have a tag. If you don't want your untagged images to get assigned document RGB you choose a different profile via Object>Image Color Settings...

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Oct 16, 2007
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    Feb 25, 2013 7:36 PM   in reply to gator soup

    You could set your document profile to a profile you're not importing something like Monitor RGB. You're not including all profiles so native RGB objects get exported without a tag and are DeviceRGB no matter what the document's RGB assignment is.

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 26, 2013 4:56 AM   in reply to gator soup

    Here I'm assigning an RGB profile to my doc that isn't embedded in one of the placed files—my monitor profile in this case:

     

    Screen shot 2013-02-26 at 7.28.23 AM.png

     

     

    When I export with Include Tagged Source Profiles, only the AdobeRGB and sRGB images keep their profiles. The native color is left untagged because I did not choose Include All Profiles.

     

     

    The native ID fill

     

    AcrobatScreenSnapz002.png

     

     

     

    The image with no tag

     

    AcrobatScreenSnapz001.png

     

     

    The sRGB image

     

    AcrobatScreenSnapz003.png

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Feb 26, 2013 4:46 AM   in reply to gator soup

    I'm still not following why you want untagged RGB to make it through to the PDF. Untagged images will eventually get an assignment over in Acrobat—it will be whatever the Acrobat CM RGB Working Space happens to be at output

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Feb 26, 2013 7:53 AM   in reply to gator soup

    Exporting untagged RGB is not a problem.

    I get the four untagged .jpgs Exported into .pdf just fine (screen shot in my original post).

     

    Over in Acrobat your untagged images will get Acrobat's working space, so if it's set to sRGB in the color management prefs, the untagged images get assigned sRGB.

     

    So, what's the problem with setting the ID document RGB assignment to sRGB and exporting PDF/X-4? The result will be the same, in both cases the untagged files get assigned sRGB. The problem with letting them go through without a profile is the assignment in Acrobat will be arbitrary, it will be whatever the pref happens to be set at.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Feb 26, 2013 9:42 AM   in reply to gator soup

    Yes, exactly -- Acrobat will will assume sRGB for Source>Monitor and Source>Destination color conversions -- I get that

    No, Acrobat will assign whatever happens to be the current Working RGB space—Preferences>Color Management>RGB, which could be anything. The other CS applications work the same way. If you open an untagged Photoshop file it gets assigned whatever happens to be the current Color Setting's Working Space

     

    PDF/X-4 appears to require a destination profile and tags all four flavors of my untagged RGB with that profile

     

    It's requiring everything have source profiles, the destination is chosen at output. What is the correct source profile for your untagged images?

     

    And assigning the wrong profile (mistagging objects) to try and work around this problem seems like it would open a severely complicated bucket of worms to sort out.

     

    In my example the native objects are exporting untagged. They don't get the assigned document RGB profile because we are not choosing Include All Profiles. Untagged native RGB objects would present a problem at output, but so would your untagged RGB images.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 26, 2013 9:46 AM   in reply to Rob Day

    Referring to post #20:

     

    Rob,

     

    IMO, your statement

     

    Over in Acrobat your untagged images will get Acrobat's working space, so if it's set to sRGB in the color management prefs, the untagged images get assigned sRGB.

     

     

    is correct, if you mean by Acrobat  reading the PDF. I won't be correct, if you mean

    Export to PDF - just to clarify this.

     

    This doc

    http://docs-hoffmann.de/a3gencolorhigh.pdf

    contains on purpose many untagged color graphics. The source color space is always

    clearly indicated on each page. For instance p.6: ProPhotoRGB.

     

    Open this doc in Photoshop and assign ProPhotoRGB - the appearance will be correct

    and the measurable RGB numbers (Info) are indeed that of the source - ProPhotoRGB,

    as printed in the patches.

     

    This says, like all other tests:

    InDesign's Export to PDF leaves all images untouched if exported in mode

    No Color Conversion

    -----

    The claim, that Export to PDF strips profiles from tagged images needs to be proved,

    based on the complete workflow, mainly by the complete folder of sources. Perhaps

    the respective sRGB image was saved without profile (untagged)?

     

    I don't believe that Export to PDF had been modified since version CS2 (mine) so,

    that it is now buggy. This could be easily proved.

    But please, by two different workflows, resulting in two different threads:

    a) the case of untagged images

    b) the case of tagged images

     

    Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
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    Feb 26, 2013 10:07 AM   in reply to gator soup

    Here's the effect of Acrobat's working space on untagged objects.

     

    If I set working RGB to sRGB my untagged example matches the tagged sRGB imageScreen shot 2013-02-26 at 12.48.40 PM.png

     

    If I change the working space to ProPhoto the previews of the untagged RGB objects change accordingly:

     

    Screen shot 2013-02-26 at 12.49.09 PM.png

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Feb 26, 2013 10:03 AM   in reply to G.Hoffmann

    The claim, that Export to PDF strips profiles from tagged images needs to be proved,

    based on the complete workflow, mainly by the complete folder of sources. Perhaps

    the respective sRGB image was saved without profile (untagged)?

     

    When you place an image  with a profile that matches the ID document's profile, the assignment is considered document RGB. To include the document RGB profile on export you have to choose Include All Profiles (i.e., PDF/X-4).

     

    You are right there are no conversions happening here, it's just a question of what profiles get exported with the PDF. There could be an argument for exporting CMYK untagged (you want to protect certain CMYK mixes), but not RGB.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Feb 26, 2013 1:20 PM   in reply to gator soup

    Acrobat "Assumes" the current working space for tagged and untagged objects

    No, only untagged objects get assigned the Working Space, which Preflight and Output Preview label as DeviceRGB.

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
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    Feb 26, 2013 1:55 PM   in reply to gator soup

    how can Acrobat be any different

     

    It isn't, that's my point.

     

    Untagged RGB images are a problem in any of the applications because the assignment will be arbitrary. It will be sRGB on your machine because your working space happens to be sRGB, on mine it will be AdobeRGB—the preview will change between our two machines.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Feb 26, 2013 3:14 PM   in reply to gator soup

    Ok, so why would you want to place untagged RGB and let them export that way? If your Acrobat working space is the correct source profile why not assign it in ID?

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
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    Feb 27, 2013 8:10 AM   in reply to gator soup

    I get "DeviceRGB" -- the ICC profile has been stripped.

     

    I do not. That's because my CM RGB Policy is set to Preserve Embedded and my Working RGB space is AdobeRGB so AdobeRGB gets assigned to the new document.

     

    See my #25.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Oct 16, 2007
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    Feb 27, 2013 9:31 AM   in reply to gator soup

    your working space should be irrelevent with tagged images if you are "preserving embedded profiles" (the Export settings indicate my source should Export unaltered)

    With Preserve Embedded as the RGB policy my new document gets assigned AdobeRGB—the assigned Document RGB profile (not the RGB working space) color manages native and untagged RGB objects. In this case a placed AdobeRGB image would be considered document RGB, so to include its profile on export I have to export the document RGB profile via Include All Profiles.

     

    Screen shot 2013-02-27 at 11.30.59 AM.png

     

    Screen shot 2013-02-27 at 11.32.03 AM.png

     
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