Adobe Community: Acrobat XI Color Management Change

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1. Peter Spier,

Mar 6, 2013 9:18 AM in reply to Rob Day

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Thanks for the heads up. COuld you show us the last tow shot withthe cursor over a color so we can see the numbers?

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2. Rob Day,

Mar 6, 2013 9:51 AM in reply to Peter Spier

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Here's X-1a with the output intent and then a conflict sampling a 0|0|0|50 ID object:

Here is the same ID file saved with the [Press Quality] preset (no profiles). My Acrobat Working CMYK is US SWOP, so the US SWOP simulation outputs 0|0|0|50 unchanged:

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3. Peter Spier,

Mar 6, 2013 9:59 AM in reply to Rob Day

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That is scary.

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4. MikeWenzloff,

Mar 6, 2013 10:46 AM in reply to Rob Day

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Personally I am getting lost in all the screen shots of Acrobat showing different profiles. I really wish this forum software was akin to others where one can cycle through each post's images using next/previous buttons.

All I can say--not adding anything of value I suspect--is the following screen shot from my PDF was using an unchanged Press Quality export setting. The PDF's profile is in view.

Mike

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5. Rob Day,

Mar 6, 2013 11:37 AM in reply to MikeWenzloff

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When the PDF does not include a profile I get 0|0|0|50 no matter what CMYK Working Space or Simulation Profile is chosen in Acrobat X and earlier—the Press Quality preset doesn't include profiles.

In Acrobat XI the numbers change if the Working and Simulation Profiles conflict. So what happens if you leave the Simulation Profile at US SWOP and change your working space to something else?

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6. MikeWenzloff,

Mar 6, 2013 1:50 PM in reply to Rob Day

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ID Working space:

PDF using Press Quality:

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7. Peter Spier,

Mar 6, 2013 1:59 PM in reply to MikeWenzloff

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But waht settings did you use to export?

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8. MikeWenzloff,

Mar 6, 2013 2:04 PM in reply to Peter Spier

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Hi Peter--I started playing along when I read post #2, which was using Press Quality. Which was stated just above the Acrobat screen shot in my previous post.

I'll redo with the PDFX-1a profile mentioned as well.

I really got lost looking and reading through this thread.

Mike

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9. Rob Day,

Mar 6, 2013 2:06 PM in reply to MikeWenzloff

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The InDesign profile doesn't matter because it's not included when you export via the Press Quality preset:

Try changing your Acrobat Working Space:

If the Simulation Profile is US SWOP I get a conversion from US Newsprint to US SWOP. That didn't happen in AcrobatX or earlier:

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10. Rob Day,

Mar 6, 2013 2:30 PM in reply to MikeWenzloff

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I really got lost looking and reading through this thread.

If you have everything sync'd to the US SWOP defaults you wouldn't notice the change because by default the Output Preview opens with your Acrobat's Working Space as the Simulation Profile, so there would be no value change.

This might not be a problem in practice because by default the print destination is the same as the Working Space when a profile is not included.

The conventional wisdom has been if you don't include a CMYK profile the CMYK values should output unchanged—as with Press Quality or High Quality Print presets. It doesn't look like that's the case anymore.

So it seems like at least including an Output Intent (PDF/X-1a) is more important now.

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11. MikeWenzloff,

Mar 6, 2013 2:47 PM in reply to Rob Day

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Thanks, Rob.

Thank you for your patience. I am slow but get there eventually. Usually.

OK. I don't have my previous Acrobat version, which was 9, available. So I cannot play back and forth between the two versions. But I now understand better what you are saying about version 11.

So I think I need to leave it there.

Again, thank you. Mike

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12. lrosenth,

Mar 7, 2013 2:56 PM in reply to Rob Day

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Acrobat XI's Output Preview has changed - in many ways - including this one. For both better and for the worse.

In the case of PDF/X compliant files, Output Preview is now behaving 100% correctly. Since all DeviceCMYK colors are implicitly tagged as being associated to the OutputIntent specified in the file, switching the simulation profile means that we (as per the PDF/X specs) to do a CMYK->CMYK transform to get the new color value. So that is what you now see.

HOWEVER, that (as you note) is also happening for PDFs w/o any embedded profile - and that's wrong - since DeviceCMYK should means that it takes on those same values regardless. This bug has been filed and we hope to fix it in a future update.

NOTE: this change is ONLY in Output Preview - it has NO IMPACT on printing or other operations.

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13. Rob Day,

Mar 8, 2013 8:11 AM in reply to lrosenth

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In the case of PDF/X compliant files, Output Preview is now behaving 100% correctly. Since all DeviceCMYK colors are implicitly tagged as being associated to the OutputIntent specified in the file, switching the simulation profile means that we (as per the PDF/X specs) to do a CMYK->CMYK transform to get the new color value. So that is what you now see.

In all my testing I see a difference in the effect of an embedded profile vs. an output intent profile. I see it two ways when I export PDF/X.

With PDF/X exports, any InDesign Document CMYK colors list as DeviceCMYK in Acrobat. So, if I print separations to my postscript printer DeviceCMYK values always output unchanged—it doesn't matter if there's an Output Intent Profile (PDF/X) included and the print destination conflicts with that intent.

Furthermore if I place the PDF/X back into an InDesign document, with a Preserve Embedded Profiles policy, all DeviceCMYK color shows as unchanged in Separation Preview even when the InDesign document profile conflicts with the placed PDF/X's Output Intent.

On the otherhand if I export a PDF with no output intent and set the output to No Color Conversion/Include All Profiles, I do get expected CMYK to CMYK conversions when the destination conflicts with the embedded source profiles, both from my printer and when placing back into InDesign.

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14. lrosenth,

Mar 8, 2013 8:28 AM in reply to Rob Day

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>if I print separations to my postscript printer DeviceCMYK values always output unchanged—

>It doesn't matter if there's an Output Intent Profile (PDF/X) included and the print destination conflicts with that intent.

So you are printing from Acrobat? What version on what OS platform? And what settings do you have enabled for color management in the Print dialog?

if I place the PDF/X back into an InDesign document

Unfortunately, InDesign does NOT respect the file's conformance to PDF/X when placing it :(. This is a long standing bug in InDesign.

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15. Rob Day,

Mar 8, 2013 9:07 AM in reply to lrosenth

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10.6.8. Here are the files I'm testing:

http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/ProfilevsOutputIntent.zip

One thing I notice is that the Print dialog thumbnail preview does show the output intent having an effect, but that's not what happens in the printed separations. The color is 50% K so it's easy to see a conversion.

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16. Rob Day,

Mar 8, 2013 9:17 AM in reply to lrosenth

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One thing I find odd about PDF/X-4 is document CMYK objects export as DeviceCMYK even though the standard includes all profiles. But if I set the standard to None the export is still Including All Profiles and now Document CMYK color exports as calibrated.

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17. lrosenth,

Mar 8, 2013 9:44 AM in reply to Rob Day

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One thing I find odd about PDF/X-4 is document CMYK objects export as DeviceCMYK even though the standard includes all profiles

Again, long standing bug in InDesign .

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18. lrosenth,

Mar 8, 2013 9:45 AM in reply to Rob Day

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OH – you weren't kidding when you said you were printing separations. I thought you meant that in the generic sense.

Yes, when you print separations, no color management is applied. The standard does not address the issue of separated output, so either model (with or without transform) would be correct.

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19. Rob Day,

Mar 8, 2013 10:36 AM in reply to lrosenth

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Yes, when you print separations, no color management is applied.

It is from my printer when the PDF includes profiles.

What good is Output Preview if its not returning the actual output separation values?

I think it makes sense that X-1a exports as DeviceCMYK so there's a workflow available that stops color management at export but notifies everyone downstream of the expected output. PDF/X-4 makes complete sense when the destination is unknown, but not if the profiles aren't working.

By default in AcrobatX a PDF/X-1a opened in Acrobat with the Simulation Profile as the Output Intent—both the preview and the separation output numbers were correct.

If I send out a US SWOP X-1a and my printer blows off the intent and outputs to US Sheetfed, there isn't going to be the CMYK to CMYK conversion the new Output Preview is showing. However, my unchanged 50% K fill might print darker than expected if the press is really printing to the US Sheetfed profile, which is what the old output preview would preview when US Sheetfed was chosen as the simulation profile instead of the US SWOP output intent.

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20. lrosenth,

Mar 8, 2013 11:05 AM in reply to Rob Day

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>What good is Output Preview if its not returning the actual output separation values?

It is IMPOSSIBLE to return the "actual output separation values", since the software has no way of knowing how your press is calibrated (or if it even is calibrated). All we can do is use the information you've provided and work from that.

This is one reason why using color managed input (aka ICC profiled colors) instead of raw CMYK values is preferred.

>By default in AcrobatX a PDF/X-1a opened in Acrobat with the Simulation Profile as the Output Intent—

>both the preview and the separation output numbers were correct.

For PDF/X-1a files, the Output Preview is still correct in Acrobat XI. The only issue that has been identified is for PDFs that DO NOT comply with the PDF/X standards, so that no Output Intent exists.

>If I send out a US SWOP X-1a and my printer blows off the intent and outputs to US Sheetfed,

>there isn't going to be the CMYK to CMYK conversion the new Output Preview is showing.

It is debatable if your printer is following the standard or not. Some people say yes, some say no. As such, both positions are valid.

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21. Rob Day,

Mar 8, 2013 12:31 PM in reply to lrosenth

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It is IMPOSSIBLE to return the "actual output separation values", since the software has no way of knowing how your press is calibrated (or if it even is calibrated). All we can do is use the information you've provided and work from that.

The output preview should show what values are outputting to the separation plates—the press has nothing to do with the separation output values. So my PDF/X-1a example is always outputting a 0|0|0|50 separation no matter what destination I choose. There's no way I'm getting a 25|25|35|0 separation which is what Acrobat XI's Output Preview is showing I'll get if I coose the conflicting US Sheetfed simulation profile.

InDesign and Photoshop work that way, the Separation Preview and Info panels are showing the plate values not the press values.

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22. lrosenth,

Mar 8, 2013 12:41 PM in reply to Rob Day

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Rob – the details of a separated workflow are completely outside the PDF/X specification (and the PDF spec, for that matter). Acrobat assumes a modern composite and/or digital workflow, where the PDF/X file will be processed by a native PDF RIP according to the rules of PDF/X (rather than a historical separated Postscript workflow).

Neither InDesign nor Photoshop support PDF/X-compliant rendering, so the point is moot.

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Acrobat XI Color Management Change

Mar 6, 2013 8:51 AM

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