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Ed_Lazar Calculating status...

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What's the best way to deal with Canon pf24 files?

Mar 14, 2013 2:30 PM

Tags: #canon #cs6 #pf24

I'm working on a project shot mainly with Canon DSLR footage (1080p, 24fps.) But now I would like to add some footage from a Canon Camcorder recording in AVCHD format. It would seem to make the most sence to shoot at 24fps, or as Canon calls it pf24. The question is, is premiere or media encoder able to interpret the canon footage and do the proper 3-2 pulldown? Or should I record in 30fps (or pf30) and convert the footage to 24 fps in media encoder before adding it to my project? Keep in mind that I can't just shoot everything in 30p because the bulk of the project is already shot at 24p. Also, I am using CS6. Does anyone have experience with this? Thoughts?

847 Views 20 Replies Latest reply: RockyMtnShooter, May 21, 2013 7:52 PM

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1. Jim Simon,

Mar 14, 2013 3:38 PM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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PP will remove any pulldown from 30i clips when added to a 24p sequence.

However, PsF doesn't necessarily mean wrapped in a 30i cadence. It just means the full frame was split into two fields. Whether or not pulldown is added is a separate issue. You just need to make sure PP sees the footage as progressive by right clicking on those clips and going to Modify>Interpret Footage...

Having said that, definitely run some tests before you shoot for real.

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2. Ed_Lazar,

Mar 14, 2013 9:57 PM in reply to Jim Simon

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I recorded two clips. One in pf30 and one in pf24. Premiere sees them both as 29.97i.

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3. Ed_Lazar,

Mar 15, 2013 8:29 AM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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So from what I'm reading, premiere should be able to automatically convert any footage droped onto the timeline. The problem here is that premiere is unable to read these canon pf24 and pf30 files, all it sees is the 60i container they're wrapped in and reports them as 29.97i. I'm thinking the best option may be to shoot in pf30, do a deinterlace in media encoder just so premiere sees the file correctly (there should be no quality loss since it's actually recorded 30 frames progressive), then when I drop the 30p files onto a 24p timeline premiere should be able to deal with them properly. Thoughts?

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4. Jim Simon,

Mar 15, 2013 8:39 AM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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OK, so it looks like the camera is both segmenting the frames and adding pulldown. You should still be able to just drop them into a 24p sequence without issue. Shoot at 24, not 30, and give it a go. Shooting at 30 will have the wrong cadence when used in a 24p sequence.

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5. Ann Bens,

Mar 15, 2013 8:58 AM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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Might want to read this:
Its a camcorder, but could be the same 'issue'.
http://provideocoalition.com/atepper/story/empsf8217s_missing_workflow _em_part_2_the_canon_xa10_camera/

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6. Ed_Lazar,

Mar 15, 2013 11:00 AM in reply to Ann Bens

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Thanks Ann, your link led me to another link in the same series that shows how to get premiere to see pf30 footage as progressive by using the modify/interpret footage dropdown, then under field order choosing no fields progressive.

http://provideocoalition.com/atepper/story/psf8217s_missing_workflow_p art_7_adobe_premiere_pro_cs5.5.x/

That does away with the need to run the footage through media encoder. No mention if this works for pf24 however.

I've read that After Effects has an option to do 3:2 pulldown on it's interpret footage dropdown, but premiere does not seem to have this option.

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7. Jim Simon,

Mar 15, 2013 11:21 AM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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PP does it automatically when you put 30i footage into a 24p sequence.

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8. Ed_Lazar,

Mar 15, 2013 10:21 PM in reply to Jim Simon

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OK, I did some more tests. The interpret footage trick from above works on pf30 footage dropped into a 30p timeline. But when dropped into a 24p timeline camera motion is blurred and choppy.

Also interpret footage doesn't work with pf24 footage at all, again blurred motion and choppyness, weather dropped into a 30p or 24p timeline.

From this it seems that premiere isn't doing any sort of 3:2 pulldown whatsoever. At least not on this ridiculous canon progressive footage wrapped in a interlaced container.

The thing is the pf24 footage looks smooth when played back from the camcorder.

So now I'm at a loss.

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9. Ed_Lazar,

Mar 15, 2013 10:42 PM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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So it looks like no one out there has any experience editing canon pf24 footage? I was hoping to use my Canon HF M500 camcorder as a second camera, but it looks like it's going to be way more trouble than it's worth.

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10. Ed_Lazar,

Mar 15, 2013 11:45 PM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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OK looks like I found the solution. You have to take the pf24 footage into After Effects and use the interpret footage dropdown there, then just click the guess 3:2 pulldown button. Right click on the file again and choose the make composition from selection. Then render the composition out to a full resolution avi file (1920 x 1080, 23.976fps) and put it in your timeline. The bummer is you have to do this for every file, and the files are large (about 8gb per minute) but since your output choices are limited in after effects, full resolution avi files are the best choice to retain quality. Adobe really needs to add a guess 3:2 pulldown button to premiere's interpret footage dropdown. This was way more difficult than it needed to be. Then again I guess canon created the whole problem in the first place. Thanks a lot canon.

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11. Jeff Bellune,

Mar 16, 2013 6:31 AM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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Have you tried not interpreting the footage in Pr and just dropping the pf24 footage into a 24p timeline?

Jeff

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12. Ed_Lazar,

Mar 16, 2013 7:34 AM in reply to Jeff Bellune

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Yes I have Jeff, and when I did I had choppy playback. Most noticable during pans or periods of fast motion.

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13. Jeff Bellune,

Mar 16, 2013 8:06 AM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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Is there a difference between that choppiness and when you interpreted the footage to 24p?

Also, is there any chance that system issues are skewing the results -- disk i/o, cpu or gpu lag, resource-munching background processes?

Jeff

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14. Jim Simon,

Mar 16, 2013 12:30 PM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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choppy playback during pans or periods of fast motion.

That is more likely a sign of something wrong with your shooting than with the footage. With 24p, you need to take it pans and such slower than with normal video. If you don't, that 'chop' is the result. Nothing you can really do to fix that but reshoot and move the camera slower.

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15. Ed_Lazar,

Mar 18, 2013 2:28 PM in reply to Jeff Bellune

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I consider system issues, but I only really noticed the choppy playback on the canon pf24 footage. My system plays back pf30 (after interpreting), 30p, 30i and 24p footage just fine. I think the problem is that premiere is unaware that the pf24 footage is shot at 24fps, and there is no way to manually tell it to do a 3:2 pulldown, like there is in after effects.

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16. Jim Simon,

Mar 18, 2013 2:33 PM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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Again, PP removes pulldown automatically when you add the footage to a 24p sequence. However, it needs to be shot in 24p mode. You don't add footage shot in 30p to a 24p sequence, you edit that at 30p.

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17. Ed_Lazar,

Mar 18, 2013 2:42 PM in reply to Jim Simon

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The shooting is certainly part of it. I shot it purposly that way so any choppy playback would be more apparent. This is the bottom line as I see it. When played back through the camera the movement is smooth. Playing these same pf24 files in premiere, choppy playback results. Since there is no way to force premiere to do 3:2 pulldown, premiere is playing the duplicate frames (every 5th frame ) that it is supposed to disgaurd resulting in choppy playback. After interpreting in after effects ( with 3:2 pulldown applied ) playback is smooth, matching camera playback. Keep in mind that the choppiness is subtle and could easily be missed if you had little or no camera movent or no fast motion in your files.

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18. Jim Simon,

Mar 18, 2013 2:46 PM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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there is no way to force premiere to do 3:2 pulldown

Sure there is. Put the footage in a 24p sequence. It removes pulldown automatically.

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19. Ed_Lazar,

Mar 18, 2013 2:56 PM in reply to Jim Simon

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In the case of a normal 24p file (One that premiere recognizes as 24p), I agree with you Jim. But these canon pf24 files are a different animal.

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20. RockyMtnShooter,

May 21, 2013 7:52 PM in reply to Ed_Lazar

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Ed you are soo right! PP does not automatically fix the problem by dropping the footage into a 24p AVCHD sequence. If you have CS6 PP and AE you can use easily fix this ugly problem.

Excuse me why I step up on my soapbox - Adobe Premiere Pro development team -- please fix this @$%& problem asap!!!! The PP Interpret footage function is a joke without it!

The best solution I could come up with after investing a ton of time into this is to use AfterEffects inside PP as a filter. Therefore you will not have to duplicate or re-render all your PF24 footage to create true 24p clips. You work with the same source clips throughout the entire process. Here's what you do - 1st create a 24p AVCHD sequence in PP and drop your PF24 clips into it. Now you can select individual clips or the entire sequence of clips and "right click" and select "Replace with AfterEffect Composition". This will export the selected clip(s) into AE. Now you can use the world-famous AE Interpret footage function to remove the pulldown issues. Inside AE right-click the clip - select Interpret footage - select the fielding (in my case it was Upper Field First) - then finally the "magic bullet" - select "Guess 3:2 Pulldown" button. Now when you jump back into PP you will be working with beautiful "TRUE" 24p footage.

All the best!

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