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Non-optimal hyphenation

Apr 8, 2013 10:59 AM

I'm using CS5.5 on a PC and have the following entry in a bibliography (top):

 

hyphenation.jpg

  

I don't want the extra hyphen in 'Plessis', so I put in the 'nonbreaking hyphen' in front of it, which gives me the middle version.   

 

But I get much better spacing if I put a normal word space after the 'Plessis-', which gives me the bottom version.

 

Why isn't InDesign doing that without the word space? I'd rather not put it in, in case I later reformat the text in some way.

 

I'm perplexed, so any thoughts would be very welcome. Thanks.

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 8, 2013 11:33 AM   in reply to r-j-f

    It seems like you've applied full justification to those paragraphs. You may get rid of extra spacing if you apply left justification to those paragraphs.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 8, 2013 12:28 PM   in reply to r-j-f

    I'd try using a non-breaking space between Le and Plessis- and use the method of your choice to keep Plessis from hyphenating.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 8, 2013 12:38 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Peter's on the right track, I think. If you allow hyphenation at all here, then it's going to be funky - I hate Proximity hyphenation.

     

    You might need to share your file to get a perfect answer for this one. When I typeset your example, simply applying No Break to "Plessis" gets the result you want. If I had to, I might use a zero-width space somewhere (I love those things) but it doesn't seem necessary here.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 8, 2013 2:10 PM   in reply to r-j-f

    What happens if you turn off hyphenation on capitalized words? (Or are there capitalized words that you *do* want to hyphenate?)

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,118 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 4:59 AM   in reply to r-j-f

    If I put a non-breaking space between Le and Plessis, the Le goes over to the next line and spacing is worse!

    Try Joel's No Break suggestion. Instead of using non-breaking spaces or discretionary hyphens, select Plessis and choose No Break from the Character panel.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 5:04 AM   in reply to r-j-f

    I suspect the paragraph composer, in conjuction with your justification settings, is trying to make a better looking paragraph (which it can't really do if you take away the tools by forcing things not to break). You might want to try the single line composer on this one.

     

    I'd be interested in seeing the text as might others. You can put a sample file on a server -- your own or a service like dropbox or yousendit (send it to yourself) -- and then put a link to it here to share withthe world, or send the link to us via Private Message individually.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 2:06 PM   in reply to r-j-f

    This isn't going to help, I am afraid.

     

    non-breaking space between Le and Plessis, typing a hyphen between Plessis and Robbinson produces this, here:

     

    capture-000214.png

    Mike

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 2:13 PM   in reply to MW Design

    If you turn on H&J violation hightlighting in the prefs you'll see that as soon as you start trying to force the line to break where you want it to ID is unable to figure out a way to do it without having a violation. I find it odd that ID won't break after the hyphen, though, because if you add a forced line break after the hyphen ID is perfectly happy to do your bidding (and the line count reduces by 1, though there's still a violation in the second line.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 2:18 PM   in reply to MW Design

    MikeWenzloff wrote:

     

    This isn't going to help, I am afraid.

     

    non-breaking space between Le and Plessis, typing a hyphen between Plessis and Robbinson produces this, here:

     

    capture-000214.png

    Mike

    That's really odd, because the ONLY way I can get that is with a forced line break.  I even tried changing the justification settings and changing the frame width.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 2:37 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Tis why I didn't find my "contribution" helpful myself.

     

    Mike

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 2:40 PM   in reply to MW Design

    Well, I'd like to know what you did that I didn't try.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 2:45 PM   in reply to r-j-f

    Bad news: it behaves the same on CS6.

    Good news: it does not on CS4! There you get exactly what one would expect: as soon as there is enough room on the line, it is broken on that hyphen.

     

    So the bad news seems to be Adobe 'changed' (broke, IMO) something in CS5.5 -- or possibly earlier, if anyone cares to check this in CS5.

     

    I tested with a variety of Hyphenation settings, Word Spacing, fonts, Paragraph Composers, and even languages; just to rule out the possibility that CS5.5 (and newer) picked up some previously ignored font or hyphenation parameter.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 2:47 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    My post #10. Now, I did delete the present hyphen before Robinson and type a new one. that's all.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 2:52 PM   in reply to MW Design

    I tried replacing that hyphen, too...

     

    I did my testing in CS6, though.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 2:56 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Well, I can see that the various composers of the different versions of ID are handling this differently. As Mr. Ware reports, it renders correctly in CS4. In CS5.5 and CS6, it opens up with the bad hyphenation, and sticks until I turn hyphenation off

     

    UNTIL

     

    I put a zero-width space after the dash in "Plessis-". Then it rendered as r-j-f wanted.

     

    Obviously a ZWS should not be necessary here, but it's a functional workaround.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 2:56 PM   in reply to [Jongware]

    .. inserting a Discretionary Break right after the hyphen makes it work. 'Tis a curious thing you encountered here.

     

    (Are those your default Hyphenation settings? "At least: 12 letters long", "Hyphen limit: 1"? Not that it appears to have anything to do with the problem at hand...)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 3:09 PM   in reply to [Jongware]

    So the bad news seems to be Adobe 'changed' (broke, IMO) something in CS5.5 -- or possibly earlier, if anyone cares to check this in CS5.

     

    It was CS5.5 - in CS5, it looks just like it does in CS4:

     

    broken.png

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 9, 2013 3:21 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    OK, somebody said Discretionary Line Break (I had used a force line break). That works, too, in CS6, but strangely if composes diffently thant he forsce line break. Forced break brings the year up to the second line, discretionary leaves it on the third.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2013 12:37 AM   in reply to r-j-f

    @r-j-f – There must be something else at work:

     

    As already stated:
    If one opens your IDML in InDesign CS5 all works fine.
    If opened in CS5.5 or CS6 the hyphenation is bad (broken).

     

    But:

     

    If I save your IDML as InDesign CS5 file and then open it in CS5.5 I cannot recreate the bad hyphen situation. Even not if I expand the width of the text frame and shrink it back to its former value. It's hyphenation is still the same. Even if I edit the text before the hyphenation.

     

    And further with the opened IDML in InDesign CS5.5:

    If I copy/paste the text frame with the questionable hyphen to the document I saved with InDesign CS5 and opened with InDesign CS5.5, I get the right (wanted) hyphenation!

     

    (All tests in InDesign CS5 v7.0.4 and CS5.5 v7.5.3)

     

    Uwe

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,118 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2013 6:34 AM   in reply to r-j-f

    It is a glitch in CD5.5 and later, that wasn't there before, and you can get around it by turning the hyphenation off.

     

    I was able to fix it by adding a hyphenation exception to the dictionary—like this:

     

    Screen shot 2013-04-10 at 9.30.47 AM.png

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,118 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2013 7:10 AM   in reply to r-j-f

    Also, with the dictionary hyphenation exception the Justification setting seems to  work correctly:

     

    Screen shot 2013-04-10 at 10.06.10 AM.png

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2013 7:12 AM   in reply to Rob Day

    @Rob – in the meantime I found a different workaround to force hyphenation in InDesign CS5.5 to the wanted one:

     

    Instead of the applied Language: "English GB", use another language setting.

    [No Language] will work…

    What is not working is:

     

    "French" [!?? (what the…)],
    "French (Canadian)" [!?? (what the…)],

    "Estonian",
    "Croatian",
    "Latvian",

    "Lithuanian",

    "Polish",

    "Romanian",

    "Slowakian",

    "Slovenian",

    "Czech",

    "Turkish"

    or (!!!):

     

    "English GB";

     

    Uwe

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,118 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2013 7:26 AM   in reply to Laubender

    I wonder if using the wrong language dictionary would cause new problems somewhere else?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2013 8:13 AM   in reply to Rob Day

    @Rob – usually in this case I would recommend using "French" as language setting of "English GB", but I found, that it's not working here as expected…

     

    As a quick workaround: using "[No Language]" for the single name "Le Plessis-Robinson" obviously forces InDesign to the wanted behaviour.

     

    Uwe

     
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