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nickandyhead
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InDesign CS6 10-up for business cards? Where is the template?

Apr 25, 2013 8:37 PM

Tags: #design #template #card #10 #layout #logo #up #business #10-up

Have already done the design ... anybody know where I can find the 10-up template, so I can place the card on there? Thanks...

 

Also... have to design a new logo today or tomorrow... anyone have any good techniques for a super simple two letter logo?

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 26, 2013 10:54 AM   in reply to nickandyhead

    Moved from the Creative Cloud to the InDesign forum. They will be able to help you here.

     
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    Apr 26, 2013 11:11 AM   in reply to nickandyhead

    You need to learn to do a Google search. I searched for "InDesign business card template 10 up" and found this:

     

    Business Cards 10 up with bleed - Adobe

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 5:47 AM   in reply to nickandyhead

    Adobe hasn't rele4ased any new templates since CS4. You can still find those for download through InDesignSecrets.com.

     

    The template you have is actually an Indesign 2.0 file that has been updated to CS5. There's noting special about it, or any other template file you would use for making your OWN business card layout. In this case you place your card ten times in the template. If you want a back side, add a page to both your one-up and 10-up files, build the back on the one-up and palce that ten times (or use step and repeat, as I'll explain in a moment) in the ten-up page.

     

    You haven't told us anything about this tutorial, so I can't help with where that template may have come from. but you can make your own, or do without one entirely, by using Step and Repeat from the edit menu. Place your single card image on the larger page in the upper left corner position, then Edit > Step and Repeat...

     

    Check the box to Create Grid, then set the number of columns to 2 and rows to 4, and check the preview box. Set the offsets to suit. Your current template looks like it uses a vertical offset of 2.1375 and horizontal of 4.25.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 6:06 AM   in reply to nickandyhead

    Peter's got you going on the lay out.

     

    As for a "simple" 2-letter logo...If you have Illustrator, I would build it there.

     

    But it can be done in ID. In the screen shot below I converted type to outlines, released the compound path--which also mucks up the "holes" in the letter B and those need to be made back into a compound path--extended the center of the B to join the number 2 so they overlap, then selected them both and used Add shapes from the Pathfinder menu (Object | Pathfinder).

     

    I put simple in quotes because simple is often harder than not.

     

    Take care, Mike

     

    capture-000263.png

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 7:01 AM   in reply to MW Design

    I've done a few simple type logos in ID (where there was no need to alter the glyphs) and simply saved as PDF from ID with the fonts embedded. No need to create outlines unless you need to alter the shapes.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 7:14 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    That's true. Thanks for the alternative.

     

    I would still convert the type. Makes for easier resizing. And it depends on what the OP's definition of "simple" means...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 7:18 AM   in reply to MW Design

    MikeWenzloff wrote:

    I would still convert the type. Makes for easier resizing.

    I'm curious why you say that?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 7:27 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Perhaps I am just of the mind that logotype or logos ought to be graphics...and/or that resizing live type by successive punching in numbers into the point size box is too fiddly for me to get what "looks" like a good, relational size for the other elements on the page I am working on.

     

    Whereas with, in this case, outlined text, one grabs a corner holding shift down and simply eyeballs the size. If later I decide it should be larger/smaller, same thing. So to me it is simply quicker.

     

    But like I wrote, I would use AI in the first place. Which renders all my babble above moot.

     

    Take care, Mike

     
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    Apr 27, 2013 8:24 AM   in reply to MW Design

    One can resize a text frame, and the text inside, in exactly the same way as resizing an image. You just have to lose your mindset that text frames are rigid and type is usable only in full-point sizes.

     

    I agree that logos should be graphics, which is why you would subsequently save as a PDF, and I too, would be more likely to use Illy than ID, but if you don't have Illustrator handy, ID can be quite powerful, especially with type, in a pinch. And live type retains its hinting and subtlies. You lose a lot by converting to outlines if you don't have to. Even in Illustrator I'd leave the type live if I could.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 8:50 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Yep, I know one can use the free transform or scale tools  to resize text in a frame at will. With a logo I would say something like hinting isn't important. And in Illy, I would also use live type--with the exception of handing off to a customer. I likely would provide both the original AI and an outlined version for broader applicability.

     

    In-house only? I would still do the above. Why? Sometimes I just dislike what ID does when say viewing in Overprint Preview to graphics built in it. Export to PDF is fine, viewing in ID isn't always.

     

    Anyway, the OP has options.

     

    Take care, Mike

     
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    Apr 27, 2013 9:04 AM   in reply to MW Design

    I never use the Free ransform or Scale tools. It's faster to use the Selection tool and modifier keys, but that's a matter of personal preference and habit. I disagree vehemently, though, that a file with outlines has broader applicability than a file with live embedded type. I can't say I've ever had a problem with overprint preview and anything in ID, but I'm sure our experiences have large areas that don't overlap. I've also been at this long enough to have worked in the days when what you saw on screen was at best an approximation of what you'd get in output, so I rely as much on experience and knowing what my output will be as I do on a screen preview. I suspect that's true for you as well.

     

    I think these little conversations (I hate the to characterize anything that happens here as an argument -- more a discussion of the alternatives among friends) are actually very beneficial to new users. They expose a lot of real-world technique that isn't necessarily covered in manuals and tutorials.

     

    Cheers.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 9:17 AM   in reply to nickandyhead

    nickandyhead,

     

    If you are still with us, what you've been seeing is a demonstration of one of the immense strengths of InDesign, the fact that there is often more than one way to accomplish any particular task. Is one way better than another? That's often impossible to say, and the answer may depend on the specific circumstances, with one method being better in one case, but completely off the mark in another. Sometimes it's just a matter of personal philosophy which direction you want to go.

     

    And I learn new techniques here all the time from other users whose experience and work habits are different from mine.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 9:34 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Discussion about work-flow and procedures is good because it causes me to reevaluate how or why I do what I do. As for say using ctrl + shift + < (or >) for altering point size, I always forget those keys

     

    And hey, remember amber screens and page layout? I thought I was in heaven with my first paper white monitor. But then, I thought I was pretty cool to have the first 40 meg harddrive upgrade in my XT amongst my peers. EPS without a preview and wrapping text--or an extremely approximate low-res tif preview. And $100+ megs of RAM. The good ol' days weren't great.

     

    Here's what I mean about the overprint preview. Same "logo", top one built in ID, bottom in AI. Both built by identical methods (uh, just one object on top of another). Overprint Preview in AI shows the logo correctly. Don't think the ID one does. But in my haste, I might of done something weird in ID because, well, I never use it for art creation.

     

    capture-000266.png

    And like I mentioned, both look identical in the PDF.

     

    By broader applicability, all I meant was that I have needed to supply EPS, WMF, EMF, PSD or whatever filetype of the original AI art. Most times the client does not have the fonts used and while they receive the original AI file, it does them no good except handing it off to another designer. And if they need to use the art in Word, WP, LO, etc., then outlined is necessary to keep the client phone calls to a minimum.

     

    Take care, Mike

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 11:22 AM   in reply to MW Design

    Wow. The top one looks like it has an emboss effect, or possibly inner shadow, applied to the type. What do they look like in Acrobat?

     

    For Word, yeah, you can't use a PDF (stupid Word), but you can export the PDF from Acrobat to .eps and it will give you an outlined file you can send, or convert in Illustrator to other formats as well. I'm not saying outlines are always wrong, just that they are not always the first choice, and I would ALWAYS keep a live type copy for future editing if possible.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 12:35 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Like I mentioned, the export to PDF is correct--they look identical.

     

    In general, exporting from a PDf as an EPS is a god-send. I still throw PNGs at the Word users though. Some EPS files look really bad in Word. Now, they output to a printer perfectly. But people really don't like poor screen representations much. And as in Word they are generally stuffed into a header for a template and what not, PNGs are just fine.

     

    Take care, Mike

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 6:48 PM   in reply to nickandyhead

    nickandyhead wrote:

    The customer is a Personal Trainer / Car Salesman...

     

    That's a new one.

     

    That template is something he made himself, or that came with prepunched tear-apart business card stock for your home printer. Do you want me to go into all that's really bad about that tutorial?

     

    If you are using a landscape orinetation US card size and going 10-up on US letter, it's 2 columns, 5 rows. Columns are vertical, rows are horizontal...

     

    The logo is a bit "cartoony" for my taste, but I'm not the client, and he's the only one whose opinion matters.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2013 6:51 PM   in reply to nickandyhead

    nickandyhead wrote:

    I set the Offsets as you explained, used the Step and Repeat feature, and even set columns to four. Note that I did this in the master file... hoping that it would create a second page on the Master file. Perhaps I should have done this on the  10-up?

    Right. You do the step and repeat on the 10-up version to make your grid of 10 cards. You just want the single card to be a single card, all by it's lonesome.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 28, 2013 4:59 AM   in reply to nickandyhead

    OK, I guess I do need to talk about the tutorial, bleeds, the template file you downloaded, and your cards in particular.

     

    The turorial mislead you grievously in two key areas. First, while you can cut and paste from Illustrator to ID, it's poor practice and you lose the edit-one-update-many advantage fo placing your Illustrator artwork as a linked image. You can crop, resize, and repostion the linked file inside its frame exactly as you can with the pasted paths in the tutorial, but if you decide at some point that you want to make a change, say to the color of one part of the logo, you do that in Illustrator and update the links to the art anywhere you use it. If it's pasted, you have to fix every instance where you pasted it becasue there is no link to the original.

     

    Second is bleed. When color extends to an edge of your document you need to actually continue beyond the edge for a short distance, typically .125 inches, to allow for some misalignment in printing or cutting so that your document doesn't show a white line along the edge where the color is supposed to go all the way off. It's also very important to remember that if your cut is outside the page area on one side (and utilizing the bleed allowance), it will be inside the page area by the same amount on the opposite side, so you need to keep important information at least the same distance from any edge as the bleed allowance, and maybe more for a good look. The tutorial did not include any bleed allowance at all for the pasted  logo, and butted the cards tight to one another, so an alignment error  in the cutter would give you a logo with one edge cut off and part of  the next card showing on the opposite side.

     

    Your cards appear to bleed on all edges, but it doesn't look to me as if you've set up with a bleed allowance. For a US standard card you would set up a 3.5 x 2 inch document, and click the More Options button in the setup dialog to show the bleed settings. Add a .125 bleed all around and press OK, and you will see a red bleed guide outside the page area. That's how far any thing that touches the edge of the card should be extending beyond. If you set the margins to .125 as well they will give you a guide for the "safety area," the area you should not go outside with important information. In the screen cap below I've added a safety zone guide and used a larger margin.

    Bleed Guides.png

     

    When you place the page from your 1-up version into the 10-up template you downloaded (which DOES have some bleed alloance area between cards) you will want to show import options. You will need to selct the page(s), and if the 1-up has two pages, a front and back, you can say "All" to get them both and place one on each page in a two-page 10-up file, or you can do one at a time. In the Crop To drop down select Bleed Bounding Box so you get the bleed area along with the card area. The size of the placed object will be 3.75 x 2.25, and you want the upper left corner positioned as you have it in relation to the trim marks (the short horizontal and vertical lines at the corners in the template) in your screen shot.

     

    The maker of that template has set up with a slightly smaller top and bottom bleed allowance in order to get 10 cards on a page (I print bleed cards 8-up), but with a solid color background as you seem to have it's OK for the bleed to overlap a little, which it will do when you run step and repeat using the offsets listed above in one of my first posts.

     

    On to why there are black lines showing. I'm not sure without seeing your actual files. If you open the layers panel in the template you'll see a number of layers with "guides" in the name. These are just that, guides, and should not print. The Tim and Safe Area Guides are the black rectangles you see when you remove the dummy content on the cards layer at the bottom of the stack. These guide layers should be set to non-printing in the layer options, and are when I open the template (you can tell because the layer name is in Italics), but it's possible you changed that at some point because it looks to me like it's the trim guide rectangle that you are indicating is printing.

     

    I hope this is enough to get you going, but I probably left out something...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 28, 2013 10:28 AM   in reply to nickandyhead

    One thing about this whole 10-up is...who is doing the printing and who is doing the trim?

     

    If this is being done in-house, there are some issues. One being that at least on my Xerox, the vertical trim marks barely are visible on the print. They are there, but barely. If I were doing this in-house, I would need to do this to Letter.Extra size paper to feel comfortable with the cheap guilotine I have.

     

    Second is the registration front and back. I know of no duplex printer available to typical consumers where the registration top/bottom, left/right is accurate enough for me for such close trimming. My Xerox does great for left/right registration, not accurate enough for top/bottom registration for N-up business cards.

     

    Third is trimming. It takes a pretty decent guillotine to make such accurate cuts. With such a guillotine, crop marks are superfluous. One just as to adjust properly for the edge cut one is doing and make the same cuts on all the stacks, readjust for the next cut and so on.

     

    If this is going to an outside print bureau, one-up is all that is needed. The service will do the imposition and trimming. I have used Quantum quite a bit for clients biz cards, postcards and whatnot. 11 cents apiece for 1000, full-bleed, UV coated both sides with free shipping are $110. Less features such as knocking off the UV brings the price down to 9 cents each. And again, it is a single card design (front and back if desired) exported from ID as a PDF (they want a copy where the text is converted to curves, so one needs to make a dup of the ID file and convert the text).

     

    Mike

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 28, 2013 12:33 PM   in reply to MW Design

    MikeWenzloff wrote:

     

    If this is being done in-house, there are some issues. One being that at least on my Xerox, the vertical trim marks barely are visible on the print. They are there, but barely.

     


    Which is the main reason I print cards with bleed as 8-up. The second reason is there's less cumulative error, both in the cutting on my cheap hand-operated guillotine and in possible scaling in the print (yes, digital printers don't necessarily give dead-on sizing) with 8 cards than there is with 10. (For the record, I try to avoid printing business cards here. The file prep and printing are trivial, and my nearly new Xerox is pretty consisistent for positioning, but the cutter setup is tremendously time-consuming and inavraibly I make some mistake and end up throwing away a bunch of miscut cards. For a short run in House I might actually trim by hand with a razor knife and straight edge, one sheet at a time)

     

    Second is the registration front and back. I know of no duplex printer available to typical consumers where the registration top/bottom, left/right is accurate enough for me for such close trimming. My Xerox does great for left/right registration, not accurate enough for top/bottom registration for N-up business cards.


    As I said, mine does pretty well, but I'm also in the habit of using BIG margins on the back to be sure a misregistration is less noticeable, and I tell the client up front there may be some drift. If that's not OK, they need to pay for press output.  You need to presume that even a commercial digital print is likely to be out of registration, or very expensive because it will run on a very high end (expensive) piece of equipment, and plan your design accordingly.

     

    Third is trimming. It takes a pretty decent guillotine to make such accurate cuts. With such a guillotine, crop marks are superfluous. One just as to adjust properly for the edge cut one is doing and make the same cuts on all the stacks, readjust for the next cut and so on.

     

    True, but the marks do act as a backup check for accuracy.

    If this is going to an outside print bureau, one-up is all that is needed.

     

    Again, absolutely right. I'm sort of assuming here that the point of all of this was to learn how to do the ten-up, not necessarily to print the file.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 28, 2013 12:58 PM   in reply to nickandyhead

    Weeeeelllll....  This leads to a few possible solutions (no big surprise). If the entire card front is one .PSD, file, you can just place that, no need for an intermediate .indd. If there is vector content, or live type, in the .psd, though, save it as Photoshop PDF and change the extension to .pdp. ID rasterises the vecotors and type in .psd, but leaves them live in PDF. The .pdp extension tell the OS to edit in Photoshop instead of Acrobat by default when choosing Edit Original.  You could easily skip the 1-up for the back, too, and just set it up directly in the upper left position on the template and step and repeat it to the rest of the page. The only "advantages" to having a 1-up version are you can send it out for printing (in which case place your PDP in the 1-up, too) and if you expect to ever edit the card it's marginally faster to edit the 1-up and update the links than it is to delete 9 instances form the 10-up layout, make your edit, and step and repeat again, but only marginally once you are used to the method.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 28, 2013 1:19 PM   in reply to nickandyhead

    I'll send you my 8-up and 10-up templates (the ten up is not for bleeds). You can use them if you like. There's nothing special about making a template -- it's just an ID file that has the stuff in it you always want to use for a particular project. BC templates tend to have the guides and marks on the master page for convenience, and making your own takes a few minutes. I suspect most heavy users have one they've set up.

     
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    Apr 28, 2013 5:20 PM   in reply to nickandyhead

    OK.  On the 10-up sheet there are ten positions for standard 2 x 3.5 cards. The offsets for step and repeat are 3.5 horizontal and 2 vertical, 2 columns, 5 rows.  On the 8-up sheet the cyan guides are the bleed, the purple guidea re the card trim edges, and the green guides are the safety zone. Only the upper left position has a full set of all three -- you don't need them elswhere when using step and repeat. The offsets for this template are 3.75 horizontal and 2.25 vertical (I see there's actually not a bleed guide at the bottom of the first row, but it belongs halfway between the trim guides, which are space .25 apart. 2 columns and 4 rows. This is the one for bleeds. I'll sometimes work in 4 blocks of 2 on this template and rotate alternate blocks so that I can split the sheet into quarters (and I might do that with the knife and strightedge to eliminate problems with sheet-to-sheet resgitration) and restack into two stacks with the same corners against the cut edges for indexing. I do this by selecting a group and selecting the center spot on the transform proxy, then hitting one of the rotate buttons in the control panel twice.  If you switch to preview mode, or hide the guides, you'll see the cut marks.

     
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