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Photoshop, Lightroom, Bridge, who knows what when?

May 1, 2013 7:25 PM

Sorry for the bizarre title, but I"m not sure exactly how the whole connection between everybody with Smart Objects is supposed to work...  Is this a Photoshop thing, a Bridge thing, or a Lightroom thing?

 

I have a RAW image in Lightrom...  I make adjustments.  I open it in Photoshop as a Smart Object.  Add layers, fiddle, do normal Photoshop stuff.

 

Then I realize I goofed on the original RAW in Lightroom and had sharpened it BEFORE I went into Photoshop. 

 

So, I open the RAW back up from Photoshop, which of course, opens in Bridge, NOT Lightroom, and fix the sharpening.  Then back to Photoshop where I finish fiddling and save the .psd file.

 

EXCEPT, as near as I can tell, I now have a RAW file in Lightroom that doesn't know changes have been made. 

 

And, since I haven't written the metadata to the RAW file on disk, I have a file in Lightroom that doesn't match what's on disk, a .psd file that doesn't match the RAW file that's in Lightroom,

and changes made in Bridge that don't seem to be anywhere...

 

How do I make sure the RAW file in Lightroom stays up-to-date with what's being used as the starting image in Photoshop?  And how do I get Lightroom updated with whatever changes got made in Bridge?

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 1, 2013 7:34 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    Actually the RAW edits you did in Bridge is done in a plug-in called Adobe Camera Raw (sorry to add one more complicating program to above).  I don't use Lightroom but it should read the edits.  Are Bridge ACR and Lightroom ACR the same version?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 1, 2013 7:50 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    I don't use smart object so can't help you with those.  I know it is a PS thing, but not sure how LR handles them.  Bridge is basically a browser to view the files.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 3, 2013 12:32 AM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    I use Smart Objects all the time, but I don't go anywhere near Lightroom.  Tried it and didn't like it one bit.

     

    However, I don't believe you can make adjustments to a raw file in one application and have them show in a different application—whether Adobe or a third party application. 

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 3, 2013 12:56 AM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    davepinminn wrote:

     

    I verified that the RAW image on disk, after it gets changed in Bridge/ACR during the editing, doesn't have any idea what the current settings are.  Unfortunately, I found out by doing a read metadata in LR and got the original, original, RAW file prior to my original changes in Bridge.

     

    You are pretty confused...first off, ignore and forget Bridge in this discussion–it'll only confuse the issue. If you are using Lightroom, don't try to use Camera Raw from Bridge.

     

    When you open a raw image from Lightroom into Photoshop as a raw Samrt Object, LR sends the raw file to Photoshop (not Bridge) and the original raw file is embedded into the Photoshop files. But this a copy of the raw file embedded into the Photoshop file.

     

    Yes, you can double click the SO in Photoshop and change the raw parameters, but only the raw parameters of the embedded raw file, not the original raw image in LR. Once you create a SO from LR, you break the link to the original raw file in LR.

     

    Once you open the raw image as a SO, editing the raw file occurs in a special version of Camera Raw for SO's. You can continue to edit the SO in Camera Raw, but those changes down't go back upstream to the raw file in LR. There is a way to save out the SO settings and apply them to the original raw file in LR, but it's not easy and intuitive...

     

    So, it's LR to PS as a SO, editing the SO uses ACR in the embedded SO raw file, but there is not direct link back to the original raw file in LR. Get it?

     

    BTW, you can change the sharpening of the image in the SO using the SO version of ACR...but if you want to have those settings go back upstream back to Lightroom, you'll need to save out the image settings from the Photoshop file's Camera Raw and then load those into Lightroom. Yes, it's complicated :~)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 3, 2013 2:28 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    davepinminn wrote:

     

    That's unfortunate, 'cause it means anything I do based on what I'm doing in PS doesn't get reflected back to the original unless I remember everything I change and go manually back into LR and make the same changes...

     

    No, you won't have to do it manually as in changing the settings by hand. When you are in the Camera Raw SO with ACR open, go to the main flyout menu and select Export settings to XMP. This will write the new image settings from the SO to the xmp metadata. Then in Lightroom, select Read metadata from file in the main Metadata menu. That will bring in all the settings of the raw SO back into Lightroom. So, while not automatic, it's not as bad as writing down the settings and entering them by hand.

     
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  • JJMack
    6,049 posts
    Jan 9, 2006
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    May 4, 2013 10:40 AM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    Metadata is all over the place.  You can edit metadata in RAW files in LR and you can also edit it in the Bridge the metadata in the file is one and the same.  You can not edit a RAW file metadata in Photoshop for Photoshop is not a File editor. Photoshop can save some image in some image file formats saving in Camera RAW files formats is not something Photoshop cab do.  Photoshop supports metadata in documents and can access and modify it. A document may or mat not have metadata and a document lane have metadata in embedded smart object layers.  Photoshop also support smart object layers that share a common embedded object between smart object layers and also support smart object layers that are independent for other smart object layers,  Embedded object may be copies of files that have metadata and these can be copied via new smart object via copy. LR and ACR store conversion setting in metadata. So if you have smart object layers that contain a copy of a RAW file you have its metadata and part of that metadata is the ADOC Conversion Engine setting used to convert the raw data.  You can have independent RAW conversions smart object layers the setting for each layer can be the same or be modified  using ACR. When you update a embedded smart object the first Photoshop does is to copy the embedded object into a temp file Photoshop then passes the file to the proper application for you to update the application may be ACR, Illustrator or Photoshop.  They may update the metadata in the temp file and when Photoshop update the embedded smart object in the smart object layer the metadata update will tag along. Metadata is not stationary. Its all around us.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 1:53 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    davepinminn wrote:

     

    I must still be doing something wrong here..............

     

    You have the wrong expectation—namely because you don't grasp the concept. A smart object is not a linked file.  It's a new file all on its own (in PSB format) with no connection to the original file at all.

     

     

    davepinminn wrote:

     

    …I can open my raw (.dng) into Photoshop as a smart object.  And in PS, I can open the smart object into ACR.  Works fine.  And I can change stuff.  For example, if I change the exposure from -.25 to +.20, it changes perfectly in PS, as I'd expect.  But, I'm still not getting the changes back to the original raw (.dng) file…

     

    There is no reason why the changes made to a Smart Object oject should be refleftef to a totally unrelated file.

     

     

    davepinminn wrote:

     

    …Do I need to do something different to get the changes back to the original file…

     

    Yes. you have to go back to that original file and apply the changes directly to it.  In a previous post, Jeff Schewe told you of a shortcut to achieve that:

     

    Jeff Schewe wrote:

     

    When you are in the Camera Raw SO with ACR open, go to the main flyout menu and select Export settings to XMP. This will write the new image settings from the SO to the xmp metadata. Then in Lightroom, select Read metadata from file in the main Metadata menu. That will bring in all the settings of the raw SO back into Lightroom. So, while not automatic, it's not as bad as writing down the settings and entering them by hand.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 2:05 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    To put it in other words:

     

    A Smart Object contains a duplicate of the original raw data.  As far as the Smart Object is concerned, the original raw data does not exist any more.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 2:07 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    In the paragraph below, originally written by Jeff Schewe I will explicitly write out in big, bold red type the implied words that you are missing and that are causing your confusion:

     

    "When you open a raw image from Lightroom into Photoshop as a raw Samrt Object, LR sends a complete, duplicate copy of the raw file to Photoshop (not Bridge) and the copy of the original raw file is embedded into the Photoshop files. But this [is] a copy of the raw file embedded into the Photoshop file."

     

    Always keep in mind:  the smart object is not a linked file; it's a brand new, duplicate copy of the raw file,

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 2:10 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    I give up. 

     

     

    Jeff Schewe wrote:

     

    When you are in the Camera Raw SO with ACR open, go to the main flyout menu and select Export settings to XMP. This will write the new image settings from the SO to the xmp metadata. Then in Lightroom, select Read metadata from file in the main Metadata menu. That will bring in all the settings of the raw SO back into Lightroom. So, while not automatic, it's not as bad as writing down the settings and entering them by hand.

     

    Of course, you need to apply the metadata yourself once it's been read by lightroom.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 2:12 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    davepinminn wrote:

     

    Yes, I read Jeff Shewe's note.  And that's exactly what I did.

     

    After making the change(s) in ACR, I open the flyout menu and "Export settings to XMP".  When I open Bridge, and re-open the original (dng) file, the exposure is still -.25.   I used Bridge, and opened it after the "Export settings to XMP" to take Lightroom completely out of the mix.  But, despite reading the metadata in Lightroom, it doesn't show the changes there either.

     

    What Jeff told you was to totally leave Bridge out of the mix, not Lightroom.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 3:21 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    davepinminn wrote:

     

    Which part of Jeff's instructions am I missing or doing wrong?

     

    This works for me...where did you save your SO file? In the same folder where you raw image is? If you saved it elsewhere, then the xmp will be exported to where the SO file is...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 3:32 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    Dave,

     

    1. "Export Settings to XMP" does nothing when the file is a DNG. That's a well-known fact which our oh-so-friendly "expert" station_two seems not to know.

     

    2. Even if it did write an XMP, as it does for proprietary RAW files, the XMP would be in a Photoshop temporary items directory and would persist only as long as the document containing the SO is open.

     

    3. There may be solution. Use the command "Save Settings" that's further down the ACR menu. That will write settings to an XMP file in whichever directory you choose. Ensure it has exactly the same name (but with .xmp instead of .dng extension) as the DNG which is catalogued in Lightroom and put it in the same directory as that DNG. Then in Lightroom use the command "Read Metadata From File". Voila!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 3:52 PM   in reply to station_two

    station_two wrote:

     

    A smart object is not a linked file.  It's a new file all on its own (in PSB format) with no connection to the original file at all.

     

     

    The SO will not contain a PSB in the scenario of the post to which you responded. It'll contain a duplicate of Dave's DNG file.

     
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  • JJMack
    6,049 posts
    Jan 9, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 3:55 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    The word you can not seem to grasp the meaning of is "Copy" you are no longer working with the Original RAW  File or a Generated DNG RAW File.   You working with a different file that is a copy. If  export anything it would not be associated  either the Original RAW file or the generated DNG file. It would be for the copy.

     

    Photoshop can not even work on a RAW file it does not work with mosaic images.  In order for it to be in Photoshop as a smart object layer there needed to be a helper to create the smart object layer its RGB pixels its associated transform and its embedded smart object.  A Smart Object Layer is not a file.  However if you open the embedded object to work on it Photoshop will copy the contents of the embeded object into a temp file in you user id temp space.  For ACR to work on, Its raw conversion setting can be changed using ACR in this temp file and if you commit them using ACR OK button  the changes will be updated in the smart onject layer when Photoshop replaces the contents of the embedded object with the changed temp file contents. There is no association with the original RAW or generated DNG file use when the smart object was created.         

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 4:58 PM   in reply to conroy

    conroy wrote:

     

    …1. "Export Settings to XMP" does nothing when the file is a DNG…

     

    I took Jeff Schewe's advice to use the command "Read metadata from file in the main Metadata menu" as gospel in this regard because he is demonstrably an expert and I have not used Lightroom after having tested it and hated it many, many moons ago.  I believe Jeff when he says his instructions work for him.

     

    No, I never expected the "Export Settings to XMP" command by itself to do anything for the DNG or any other file buried deep in the entrails of a LR library.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 3:59 PM   in reply to station_two

    station_two wrote:

     

    I give up. 

     

     

    Jeff Schewe wrote:

     

    When you are in the Camera Raw SO with ACR open, go to the main flyout menu and select Export settings to XMP. This will write the new image settings from the SO to the xmp metadata. Then in Lightroom, select Read metadata from file in the main Metadata menu. That will bring in all the settings of the raw SO back into Lightroom. So, while not automatic, it's not as bad as writing down the settings and entering them by hand.

     

    Of course, you need to apply the metadata yourself once it's been read by lightroom.

     

     

    If you had an inkling of what was happening in Dave's scenario then you would know that there will be no metadata exported from ACR for Dave to apply to the original DNG, and therefore Dave cannot get the results that Jeff has led him to expect.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 4:01 PM   in reply to conroy

    That's what I just typed:

     

    No, I never expected the "Export Settings to XMP" command by itself to do anything for the DNG or any other file buried deep in the entrails of a LR library.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 4:58 PM   in reply to station_two

    LOL!! You really are utterly and hopelessly confused. Read Metadata From File cannot read a file that does not exist. LOL!!

     

    Oh, and this nonsense about LR "library entrails"... where are you getting that from? Who mentioned anything to do with LR library other than Dave having a DNG catalogued in there? Wasn't me, for sure.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 4:08 PM   in reply to conroy

    conroy wrote:

     

    If you had an inkling of what was happening in Dave's scenario then you would know that there will be no metadata exported from ACR for Dave to apply to the original DNG, and therefore Dave cannot get the results that Jeff has led him to expect.

     

    It was only in a more recent post Dave said he was using DNG...in the intial post all he said was raw...which lead me to believe he was using a raw file that had a .xmp side car. Yes, this works with raw that have sidecar files, no, it doesn't for for DNG files since the embedded copy is capable of exporting the .xmp sidecar file, but it won't be used in Lightroom because the DNG original has it's xmp metadata embed and doesn't know about te .xmp sidecar file.

     

    So, it works with native raw, it doesn't work with DNG files.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 4:58 PM   in reply to station_two

    Dave is working with a DNG.

     

    "Export Settings to XMP" does nothing when a file is a DNG.

     

    Therefore, when following Jeff's instructions, no XMP is created for Dave to apply to his Lightroom-catalogued DNG.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 4:19 PM   in reply to Jeff Schewe

    Jeff Schewe wrote:

     

    conroy wrote:

     

    If you had an inkling of what was happening in Dave's scenario then you would know that there will be no metadata exported from ACR for Dave to apply to the original DNG, and therefore Dave cannot get the results that Jeff has led him to expect.

     

    It was only in a more recent post Dave said he was using DNG...in the intial post all he said was raw...which lead me to believe he was using a raw file that had a .xmp side car. Yes, this works with raw that have sidecar files, no, it doesn't for for DNG files since the embedded copy is capable of exporting the .xmp sidecar file, but it won't be used in Lightroom because the DNG original has it's xmp metadata embed and doesn't know about te .xmp sidecar file.

     

    So, it works with native raw, it doesn't work with DNG files.

     

    Yes, I realised your initial advice to Dave was based on his saying he had a RAW file, not a DNG file. My comments were all made in light of Dave's recent revelation that he is failing to succeed with a DNG and I did not mean to suggest that you don't know ACR intimately.

     

    Anyway, let's hope that the post I directly addressed to Dave does solve his problem.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 4:21 PM   in reply to conroy

    Conroy wrote

     

    station_two, you are only demonstrating your inability to grasp the facts.

     

    Dave is working with a DNG.

     

     

    Which was not clear until the end, As Jeff points out.

     

    In any event, if you want me to admit in public for the umpteenth time, here you go:  I do not work with DNGs, nor with Lightroom or JPEGs.  Happy now? 

     
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    May 6, 2013 5:00 PM   in reply to station_two

    station_two wrote:

    Conroy wrote

     

    Dave is working with a DNG.

    Which was not clear until the end, As Jeff points out.

     

    LOL!!

     

    Your posts with which I found fault were made in response to Dave's making clear that he was working with DNG.

     
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    May 6, 2013 4:59 PM   in reply to conroy

    conroy wrote:

     

    Your posts with which I found fault were made in response to Dave's making clear that he was working with DNG.

     

     

    conroy, I freely admit that I missed the OP's first mention of "dng" [sic] in his post #9, which if I had, wouldn't have probably made any difference at all. 

     

    PS—Geeze, I hope the AfPlonkJive script gets upadted for the current format of the Adobe forums soon.  Right now, it only blocks a user if that particular user is the OP in the thread. 

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 4:42 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    davepinminn wrote:

     

    …I fear some of the seminars I've been watching make smart objects seem simpler than I'm finding the reality to be.

     

    I fully agree with you, Dave.  Too many of those tutorials and seminars would leave lots of people believing SOs are linked files, which they are not.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2013 5:09 PM   in reply to DavePinMinn

    Who the heck has edited my posts in this thread? The quotes to which I was responding have been stripped from some of my posts. Why is someone with admin privileges fooling with my posts? It ALWAYS happens while Chris Cox is posting in the forum. What a coincidence.

     
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