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Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking

May 8, 2013 6:20 AM

I use P/S CS6 and Lightroom 4. As a photographer I have had no interest in the other products. It looks as if there will be no CS7, and I will have to "lease" any forthcoming improvements to CS6.  The intro *sucker price* has no relationship to the price in a year or two. A very good deal for Adobe's cash flow, not appealing to me.  As a loyal Adobe customer since 1994, This is very disappointng and it looks like I will stick with CS6 for the foreseeable future.  But I will be keeping my eyes open for other non-Adobe substitutes.  This is an ideal time for other developers to come into the market. I have to think there will be thousands of unhappy Adobe customers.  If I have this wrong, I wish someone would talk me back from the ledge.

 
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  • Noel Carboni
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    May 8, 2013 6:50 AM   in reply to gerry

    I respect your dislike for the subscription model, but...  You could consider taking advantage of the intro Photoshop-only subscription price ($9.99/month), then you could consider canceling your subscription after one year (after which you could continue to use your current CS6 license). 

     

    You'd get a year of use of the newest features for $120.

     

    Who knows, maybe by then changes will have been made to the pricing structure that will make it more attractive to continue.

     

    -Noel

     

     

    PhotoshopOnlySubscription.png

     
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    May 8, 2013 7:14 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    I am not an early adopter with electronics or software.  As a prime responder you know all too well of new versions of drivers and updates that cause problems.  But I assume that since the software is stored on your computer it does not provide automatic updates.  So for us late adopters we could still elect to wait on updates and see how well they work before hitting the Update button.

     

    But I agree with most of the negative comments, I really dislike "renting", whether it be software, car, or house. 

     
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    May 8, 2013 7:34 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    It is the "Mid-tier" user hurt the most in the new CC pricing. Someone who uses three, maybe four Adobe products.

     
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    May 8, 2013 8:33 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    > You could consider taking advantage of the intro Photoshop-only subscription price

    > ($9.99/month), then you could consider canceling your subscription after one year

    > (after which you could continue to use your current CS6 license).

     

      Since he already has purchased CS6, that would seem to only encourage and reward Adobe for doing what he is unhappy about. Presuming he has no burning need for the CS7 features...

     
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    May 8, 2013 9:14 AM   in reply to gerry

    Adobe has really upset me with their new CC policy.  I have been using their CS products, particularly Photoshop and Dreamweaver, for many years.  Paying monthly for future updates that can increase in cost and reliance over time is not to my liking.  This is a shame as far as I'm concerned.  It appears to favor the corporate user and disregards independent users like myself.

     

    Adobe laid this on us like a bomb shell, no prior warning, trial or request for feedback, as they have done in the past. I'm very discouraged with them at this point.  It looks like I'll be using CS6 for a long time or until I can find a "non-rental" product to replace it.

     
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  • JJMack
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    May 8, 2013 9:35 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel Carboni wrote:

     

    You'd get a year of use of the newest features for $120.

     

    I for one hope many will see through this $120 milking device and keep their $120. Let the cow dry up users please.

     
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    May 8, 2013 9:45 AM   in reply to JJMack

    JJMack wrote:

     

    Noel Carboni wrote:

     

    You'd get a year of use of the newest features for $120.

     

    I for one hope many will see through this $120 milking device and keep their $120. Let the cow dry up users please.

     

      That's probably the only hope for a change. If there is a big enough backlash in sales they might do something.

     

      Otherwise, they're counting on enough people just sucking it up  (between people who actually benefit, those that are just forced or willing to put up with the increased expense, etc.) to more than offset what they may lose.

     

      At this time, I'm not going to 'Drink the Kool-aid' though.

     
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    May 8, 2013 9:54 AM   in reply to gerry

    I agree, and it seems Adobe is not happy with the feedback they are getting . I just got off the phone with sales ordering a CS5 to CS6 Photoshop upgrade and the woman was quite rude telling me how I was wasting my money etc. I politely informed her that I would not be a cloud customer, ever, and that if forced into a corner, I would look for alternate software to do my job when and if I outgrew CS6. Of course for the foreseeable future, if they continue to release new versions of Lightroom I could use that with ACR to convert any of my RAW files to TIFs. Either way, Adobe just another lost a continuing customer for Photoshop.

     
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  • JJMack
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    May 8, 2013 9:59 AM   in reply to Greg Bohn

    In reality you have no idea if any new features would be worth a $120 for you all you know for sure is in following years they will cost even more.  I have this bridge to sell you its not the Adobe Bridge its the Brooklyn Bridge are you interested?

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    May 8, 2013 10:11 AM   in reply to JJMack

    Well, to be fair you get a month free trial, and if you don't see what you like you can be done at that point.  If you're not quite sure, you get the initial year cheaper, so if you don't like what you see you can be done then.

     

    Half a million users are already paying by the month.  How many more need to sign up for Adobe to deem the program a success?  I have no idea.  Maybe none at all.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • JJMack
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    May 8, 2013 10:34 AM   in reply to flea777

    flea777 wrote:

     

    I agree, and it seems Adobe is not happy with the feedback they are getting . I just got off the phone with sales ordering a CS5 to CS6 Photoshop upgrade and the woman was quite rude telling me how I was wasting my money etc

    Sounds like Adobe but I quit un-happy with you. 

     

    You have not needed CS6 in the past You know CS6 is a dead end.    You will be able to buy CS6 years from now used. 

     

    CS6 is going no where Adobe only writes they will fix bugs.  That just an other ploy not anything you can count on.  For sure they will make no fixes once they end sales they may same day but for now they lowered their cost adobe will not ship it to you.   No Adobe will not kill their cash cow they will milk it as long as they can.

     

    It would be best if Adobe get no Phone calls and no sales.

     
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  • JJMack
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    May 8, 2013 10:43 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel Carboni wrote:

     

    Half a million users are already paying by the month.  How many more need to sign up for Adobe to deem the program a success?  I have no idea.  Maybe none at all.

    Be nice to know that answer.  Also I would like to see some competitors and see schools offer courses other then Photoshop.   I'm sure Adobe will continue giving schools and teacher reduced pricing to keep it in schools in our kids food chain..

     
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    May 8, 2013 11:40 AM   in reply to gerry

    I am not a professional but an amateur photographer - a serious amateur but an amateur nevertheless. I have been a loyal Photoshop user since it was first released. I have purchased every upgrade as it came out, not every other upgrade, every one. I also own and use Lightroom and have purchased every version as well. Clearly, I'm not unwilling to spend my hard earned money on software I find offers sufficient value.

     

    However, under the proposed cloud computing license I find neither simple math nor the licensing terms offer adequate value and unless Adobe changes course, I expect to be deserting the Adobe ship very soon.

     

    Simple math: As noted above, I upgrade to every new version as it is released. This effectively costs me roughly $200 for PS and $80 for LR every couple of years. Under the new plan I am expected to pay $240 yearly for PS (and an unknown future amount for LR). What do I gain for nearly three times the bi-annual cost?

     

    License terms: Under the perpetual license if I chose to NOT purchase an upgrade, my software continued to work until hardware or OS compatibility issues rendered it obsolete. The choice was mine. Under the CC license terms, should I fail to pay my monthly fee, the software stops working - period.

     

    These two items touch only briefly on my concerns. Both of these issues have already been covered in far more detail in this forum (and probably with more emotion and vitriol) but I feel it is imperative that those of us who have supported Adobe in the past make our concerns clear. I see nothing in this program that benefits the user; the only benefit is to significantly improve Adobe's cashflow. Perhaps the loss of a certain percentage of customers like me is part of their calculation.

     

    (BTW, I own a 12-person software development company.)

     
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  • JJMack
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    May 8, 2013 12:02 PM   in reply to jimfeet

    jimfeet wrote:

     

    (BTW, I own a 12-person software development company.)

    To me that means you may be able to write off the cost of Photoshop where many of us can not.

     
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    May 8, 2013 12:40 PM   in reply to JJMack

    JJMack wrote:

     

    To me that means you may be able to write off the cost of Photoshop where many of us can not.

     

    Yes, that's true - which should make my complaint even more significant to Adobe. After all, if a guy who could potentially write off the expense sees little value, what about the rest of us?

     

    In point of fact, just because I can write it off doesn't mean cost is not important. Every business owner evaluates expenses against value. The fact I can write it off may be why I chose to upgrade every version rather than every other.

     

    And don't discount the license issue. Should I decide later that Adobe is becoming too costly, I stop paying and lose my software. It's about freedom of choice. I will probably be forced to choose to look elsewhere.

     
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    May 8, 2013 12:26 PM   in reply to JJMack

    Unfortunately, "writing off" something does not make it free. Yes, it does make it cheaper, but less of an increase does not make it a good business decision. The bottom line is it will cost me more to use CC, and for that increase I do not "get" anything substantial. In other words, once I quit paying, I lose access to my files, which under the old licensing system I did not. So they want me to pay more to get less. So instead I purchased the upgrade to CS6 which should last me a good 3-4 years, and by that time I will either find another product to continue with, or retire from pro photography completely. Either way, they lost some of my business and some of my money.

     
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    May 8, 2013 12:39 PM   in reply to flea777

    FWIW, as I understand the licensing, the only thing we lose if we stop paying is the use of the software. Our files do not need to be stored in the cloud (after all, how long would it take you to fill 20gb?). They remain ours and can exist on your local machine. (Of course if the PS software no longer works, what's the value of having .psd files?)

     

    Nevertheless, I concur whole heartedly with your cost-benefit assertions. Somebody from Adobe needs to provide clear and unequivocal evidence of value that at least matches the cost of upgrading each year AND which assures me that if I later opt out, I can continue to use the software I have paid for - no more, no less.

     

    AS an aside, I wonder how many have converted all their camera-specific RAW image files to Adobe RAW?

     
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    May 8, 2013 5:54 PM   in reply to gerry

    Adobe is not considering the non-trivial group of Photoshop users who are amateurs and make no revenue from the use of Photoshop.  There are features in Photoshop that are not available in Elements.  I have upgraded almost every year since I acquired version 3.0 of Photoshop.  Creative Cloud as described is just not a very good deal for serious Photoshop users who do use it strictly for the art.  I hope that Adobe will reconsider or make the price about the same as it has been under the previous approach.

     
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    May 8, 2013 7:46 PM   in reply to jamesgrayphoto

    > Adobe is not considering the non-trivial group of Photoshop users who  are amateurs and make no

    > revenue from the use of Photoshop.

     

      It seems hard to believe that they failed to consider this group (they'd have to be pretty inept not to). Most likely, they decided that this group is expendable (at least the ones that won't convert) compared to the increased revenue.

     

    > or  make the price about the same as it has been under the previous approach.

     

      The fact that if you stop paying you lose all access is worse than the initial price increase in my mind.

     

      And, who knows how high they will jack up the price in the future.

     

      The spoof film "Hitler learns about Adobe's new Creative Cloud model" really nails several of the overall concerns in my opinion...

     
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    May 8, 2013 8:03 PM   in reply to Greg Bohn

    Now that video is funny. Thanks--it was quite a production to do and they did it well.

     

    Mike

     
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  • JJMack
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    May 8, 2013 8:04 PM   in reply to jamesgrayphoto

    jamesgrayphoto wrote:

     

    Adobe is not considering the non-trivial group of Photoshop users who are amateurs and make no revenue from the use of Photoshop.  There are features in Photoshop that are not available in Elements.  I have upgraded almost every year since I acquired version 3.0 of Photoshop.  Creative Cloud as described is just not a very good deal for serious Photoshop users who do use it strictly for the art.  I hope that Adobe will reconsider or make the price about the same as it has been under the previous approach.

    More likely Adobe analyzed that the trivial group will not impact their bottom line.

     
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    May 8, 2013 8:12 PM   in reply to gerry

    It looks as if there will be no CS7, and I will have to "lease" any forthcoming improvements to CS6.

     

    Is this true?

    Yikes.

     

    Put me down for a no thanks.

     

    I always got the activation thing that many complained about, but the numbers don't make sense for a lot of users if they have to pay rent.

     

    I hope Adobe rethinks this move...

     
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    May 10, 2013 7:05 AM   in reply to jimfeet

    This is my biggest concern. I HAVE ALWAY used psd files since they take up so much less space without the size of TIF file.   PSD files can hold layers with little increase in size while Tif layers in it newer version are larger. Since Windows OS can no longer display psd files  thumb nails or even copy them with certain smart object layers  inbeded in them I may has to convert all the psd files in CS6 to another more hightly to succeed format. Oh God Beta max all over again.

     

    Roy

     
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    May 8, 2013 9:26 PM   in reply to gerry

    I am not a professional and I do not make money from my photoshop work.  Even so, I have a huge investment of my time that is now saved in several years worth of PSD files...thousands of images.  I won't be able to afford the CC model.  I feel betrayed by the makers of a software product that I've loved and that I've invested so much into.  I be looking for a non-Adobe solution.

     
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    May 8, 2013 11:32 PM   in reply to de_coleman

    I too will join the crowds of folks who will say "No thanks" to Adobe in their subscription "scheme."  I started out with Elements several years ago and have moved on  to several versions of Photoshop and now use CS6.  Although I am not a professional, I have really enjoyed Photoshop.  I too feel betrayed by Adobe's new plan, and I cannot support it.  I will move to Corel (a fine program, but not quite the chops of Photoshop) or just continue to use CS6.  Maybe this sad state of affairs will open the door to another company developing a strong contender to replace Adobe products.  I certainly hope so.  Sorry, Adobe.  I used to really respect you.

     
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    May 9, 2013 12:13 PM   in reply to gerry

    I willing have paid big bucks to join the serious amateurs who wanted Photoshop as much to manipulate their photos as to belong to the exclusive club of my friends.  We have things to talk about.  We can argue about Lens Blur versus Gausian Blur, we can perfect our skils with layers and blend modes.  We are excited when the geniuses of Adobe's technical team give us yet more magical ways of fixing mistakes or just making good images into excellent images.  It was a fair trade for the perpetual license.  However, I'm retired and photography is a hobby not a profession.  $20 a month doesn't seem like a lot until you realize that this is the (first-one's-free) price to get us all to sign up.  There WILL be later price increases.  Even the $20 a month is $240 a year or $720 in three years.  That's the full, retail price of Photoshop every 3 years.  I feel that Adobe's financial managers have decided to do this because they can.  There is really no competition in this field.  I'll bet the software engineers are not happy about how their hard work is being pushed out by the corporate types who only have the bottom line and their bonuses on their minds.  I'll probably subscribe for a while.  But, competitors will begin to pop up in this new environment who will sell perpetual licenses for those of us who only dabble as a hobby.  Perhaps it's time right now to check out Apple's Aperture.  hmmm

     
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    May 9, 2013 12:25 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel Carboni wrote:

     

    You could consider taking advantage of the intro Photoshop-only subscription price ($9.99/month), then you could consider canceling your subscription after one year (after which you could continue to use your current CS6 license).

    Noel,

     

    I also considered this option. However, it's not clear if the CC version and the "perpetual" version can coexist in perpetuity. What's to say that Adobe, having forced their users into the cloud subscription model, won't void your perpetual license when you "upgrade" to the CC version.

     

    Just sayin'...

     
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    May 9, 2013 12:28 PM   in reply to de_coleman

    I see a market for a utility that converts .psd files to .tif files (with all layers)...

     
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    May 9, 2013 12:39 PM   in reply to jimfeet

    it's not clear if the CC version and the "perpetual" version can coexist in perpetuity.

     

     

    from the CC FAQs:

    Yes, your existing Creative Suite installation will not be affected by installing the new CC applications. For example, you can install and use both Photoshop CS6 and Photoshop CC on the same computer.

     
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    May 9, 2013 12:41 PM   in reply to Greg Bohn

    I agree that the fact one loses all access to your .psd files if you opt out of the subscription is much worse thanthe cost - which, at nearly three times the perpetual upgrade cost is bad enough. But consider this "hidden cost" as well:

     

    I have a significant investment in PS plugins from Nik, Topaz, OnOne and others. That investment is also down the tubes...

     

    Yet the fact I'm willing to consider this investment a loss should be a strong indication of how much I detest the software rental concept.

     

    Were Adobe to lock the software at its current feature set when you stopped paying for the subscription, I might consider paying their exorbitant ransom to use it. After all, if you stop paying for a magazine, they don't come and take your old copies away.

     
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    May 9, 2013 12:44 PM   in reply to charles badland

    Yes, your existing Creative Suite installation will not be affected by installing the new CC applications.

    Today.

     

    Call me paranoid but I'm afraid that when Adobe announced they were eliminating the CS version for the CC version which they claim will be better for me... well, I think I'm justified to be just a bit paranoid.

     
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    May 9, 2013 2:00 PM   in reply to jimfeet

    Let me get this straight. I now own Photoshop CS5. If I use the subscription service for 2 years then cancel it - would I still be able to go back and install CS5 as long as the OS can handle it? In other words, will I always have my CS5 to fall back on since if I reinstall it 2 years from now, Adobe will have to reactivate it. Will they still honor my perpetual license?

     
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    May 9, 2013 2:17 PM   in reply to macuser48

    I think Adobe is shooting itself in the foot here.  This move leaves an opening for comptetition to provide an alternative, which although it may not have all the features, will be satisfactory for many amateur and hobbiest photographers.  There is certainly room on the market for alternative image processing software and I'd bet there are some developers out there licking their chops. Our local photo club has over 300 members, many who use PS (old and new versions) and Lightroom and are not prepared to spend $240/year for an application.

    Before I got my first version of Photoshop, I was using Live Picture, which at the time had some very nice features and it was with some reluctance that I switched to PS. Now, options for me, besides sticking with CS6 are moves to Aperture or NX2.  Saying that, I have now investments in NIK, TOPAZ and Kyuper plug-ins for CS6, but these could be modified to stand-alone programs if there a sufficient market. 

    Finally, it would be a pain to convert my psd files to TIFFs, but that is an option. Also, one can convert RAW images to DNG.  I don't know the pros and cons here but would be interested if anyone has thoughts.

     
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    May 9, 2013 3:11 PM   in reply to gerry

    I agree-CS6 and LR4 might be the last I own.  I resent being forced into paying monthly fees, etc.  I would probably spend the same amount upgrading, but at least I can do it when I want to, instead of being forced to.  I would definitely look at other alternatives than Adobe, or keep using the products I have until they don't work anymore.

     
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    May 9, 2013 9:32 PM   in reply to gerry

    I have used every version of PS since 6.0, and have developed an appreciation and respect for Adobe over the years -- until now.

    Their new CC policy is a radical departure from their traditional "customer first" marketing attitude. So much so, that I and others are shocked and no longer trust the company we thought we knew.

     

    No longer can I consider the latest innovations of a new release of PS and then decide whether to invest in the upgrade as a license owner. Adobe has ended that traditional model and replaced it with "pay us $20/month in advance, and we promise to keep making PS better." Besides being 50% more than the $199 / 18 months I had been paying, how can I now trust them to do that?

     

    What is Adobe's motivation (i.e. profit incentive) to keep producing new features? Is the same corporate mind-set that dreamed up this CC scheme going to continue investing in R&D when they already have our yearly commitment in payments? It's likely that improved product features could soon fall into the same rut that product fixes have been in for years with Adobe -- rare.

     
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    May 9, 2013 9:16 PM   in reply to gerry

    Personally, this really fries me.  Since I tend to keep computers for at least 5 years, typically am running 3 at a time..... That would be $3600 for the time that I intend to use it.  Guess what.  I am not going to spend that kind of money for the cloud application.  Perhaps I won't have the latest updates, but I have most of what I need already.  Therefore, Adobe has lost me as a loyal customer.  I will use the copies I have for as long as I own these computers, and by then, I am sure that some other companies software will have caught up, or perhaps, the operating system on those new computers will still run this.  Either way, I am not going to pay that high rental fee.........The interesting thing is that now that Google has purchased the NIK package, they seem to be making a serious run at digital editing.  Perhaps in 5 years, they will be offering it for free like many of their products and all I will have to do is watch billions of ads.... no that isn't appealing either.....

     
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    May 10, 2013 1:31 AM   in reply to *Photonic

    Besides being 50% more than the $199 / 18 months I had been paying,

    Your numbers are right, but not quite a fair comparison. The $200/18 month was for Photoshop Standard. The stand-alone Photoshop offered in the Cloud is Photoshop Extended, which I thought had a higher upgrade price.

     
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    May 10, 2013 6:32 AM   in reply to charles badland

    > The stand-alone Photoshop offered in the Cloud is Photoshop Extended,

     

      But the original comparison is still valid because he would be forced to upgrade to a version he previously didn't want because the direct equivalent was made unavailable,

     
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