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Currently Being Moderated

20 percent tint counts as color... here we go again!

May 21, 2013 12:56 PM

We use InDesign CS6 v8.0.1 on Windows. About 80 percent of our documents use color as follows:

 

PMS 541 is applied as a spot color on at least 3 pages

Black text is used on every page

20 percent K tint is used (see image inserted below)

Our in-house printer is a Konica Minolta C454

 

The printer counts the tinted pages as a color, and we are charged for this "color" click. This has become costly for us, since the majority of the pages in our documents use pages with the 20 percent K tint. We create the box using the retangle tool and then outline with a 1pt. rule at 100 percent black and fill with 20 percent tint of black. Is there anyway to have the black tint just print as black and not as a color without printing the whole document as grayscale.

 

BTW: We have used the printer driver and the postcript driver and both interpret the screen as a "color."

 

 

Accomplishment_form.jpg

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 1:02 PM   in reply to kmoc2259

    Are you sure it's an InDesign problem? Have you check with the printer

    manufacturer?

     

    Bob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 1:07 PM   in reply to kmoc2259

    Are you printing direct from ID? What do you have set for Appearance Of Black options in the prefs?

     

    Are you including any printer's marks?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 1:10 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    I thought about the black appearance and printing thing but that

    shouldn't be applicable with a postscript printer.

     

    But...is the OP sure they're not using a PCL driver? That would

    certainly do it.

     

    Bob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 1:14 PM   in reply to kmoc2259

    Export a file to PDF and check it in Acrobat. If the 20% is K only, it is the printer and or its set up.

     

    Oops, see you have just replied. I would suggest checking the swatch. I get proper results.

     

    Mike

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 1:14 PM   in reply to kmoc2259

    You cannot attach images, you must embed them in your post using the camera icon, like this:

    CameraIcon.png

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 1:14 PM   in reply to kmoc2259

    Use the PostScript driver.

     

    Mike

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 1:17 PM   in reply to kmoc2259

    You need the postscript drive to make this work right.

     

    Bob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 1:17 PM   in reply to kmoc2259

    kmoc2259 wrote:

     

    Yes. It is a PCL driver (not sure what that means, though.)

    PCL (printer control language) drivers are RGB so ID considers your printer an RGB device. If the prefs are set to output all blacks as rich black this affects printing to RGB devices and you are actually getting four colors. Installing the Postscript driver should fix that.

     

    Have you looked at the print with a looupe to see if you have four colors?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 1:19 PM   in reply to kmoc2259

    kmoc2259 wrote:

     

    Sorry. The appearance of black is set as Output all blacks accurately

    OK, I don't think that would generate a four-color black, though it might be giving you screened type.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 1:56 PM   in reply to kmoc2259

    What do you see in the seps preview when you hover over this?

     

    Are you doing a profile conversion in ID at output?

     

    Did you loupe the print to see if there really are 4 inks?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 2:06 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Your email response only had header information in it...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 2:14 PM   in reply to kmoc2259

    check a pdf in acrobat. if the 20% fill is only on the black plate, then it is the printer doing the conversion.

     

    mike

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 2:19 PM   in reply to kmoc2259

    If there is only one color on the printed page and you're being charged for a color click, that is not ID.

     

    It sounds like there is a color conversion going on, but it isn't clear where. Can you show us a screen capture of the Output and color Mangement screens from the print dialog, please.

     

    Is color management enabled on the printer? If it is, turn it off.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2013 9:31 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    @Peter – I think there are two ways the printer can count:

     

    1. Grayscale OR Separation Black
    2. Color

     

    If you chose a tint of black and print that, that would fall into category 2.
    20 k is NOT Grayscale mode nore Separation Black.

     

    I've seen that a lot with Xerox based systems.

     

    Uwe

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 22, 2013 3:23 AM   in reply to Laubender

    I won't dispute waht you've seen, but I've never seen it and I can't understand how a native 20% k is any less grayscale than an imported photoshop file in grayscale mode. They both end up only on the K plate, and I don't think the print driver can differentiate between a native object and a placed one.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 22, 2013 7:35 AM   in reply to kmoc2259

    Try this: Create a new CMYK swatch and make it 0/0/0/20.

     

    Bob

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,120 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 22, 2013 12:16 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    They both end up only on the K plate,

     

    You can't spec a native color or object as grayscale—20% black is the CMYK color 0|0|0|20—but I think ID does recognize placed grayscale images as a grayscale object. A subtle, but maybe important difference in this case.

     

    If you export an ID page with a placed grayscale as PDF/X-4, Acrobat identifies the placed grayscale as a grayscale and not as a CMYK object with the grayscale pixels on the K channel.

     

    I've never seen a non-poscript RGB driver print CMYK values unchanged—I can print CMYK unchanged to my Epson inkjet via a Postscript RIP, but not via the Epson RGB driver. I don't normally use the Epson driver but I'm pretty sure it would print 0|0|0|20 as color and a grayscale with black only.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 22, 2013 12:26 PM   in reply to Rob Day

    Are you saying you think 0/0/0/20 should be considered as color? Why wouldn't the printer then also consider the default black, 0/0/0/100 as color?

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,120 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 22, 2013 1:15 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Are you saying you think 0/0/0/20 should be considered as color?

     

    My RGB Epson driver  prints 0|0|0|20 as a 4-color mix, and my experience with other RGB drivers is the same, any CMYK mix gets color managed for the printer.

    Why wouldn't the printer then also consider the default black, 0/0/0/100 as color?

     

    Maybe it does unless the page is printed as grayscale? Or maybe the driver's smart enough to make an exception for 100% black text.

     

    included a single box with 20 percent K fill sent to the PostScript drive (straight from ID) and the printer counted is as a color click …now what!

     

    My PS Rip (PowerRipX) will do it but not with the default settings. I don't think all PS RIPs can print document CMYK values.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 22, 2013 1:46 PM   in reply to Rob Day

    It's not yet clear if the printer is using the PCL or PS driver.

     

    I just output a page here that has a 100% K block, a 20% K block, and a grayscale raster on my two color printers, an OKI C110 that uses a PCL driver, and my Xerox Phaser 7800 that is Postscript. As expected, the OKI outpts four colors, even when set to output all blacks accurately, and the xerox outputs only black, and registers a black click.

     
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