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H264 720p best output parameters

May 24, 2013 7:27 AM

Tags: #premiere_elements_11

Hi community,

 

I recently bought Adobe Premiere Elements 11. I want to edit some H264-Ts files with it. Here are the parameters of one example file (given by MediaInfo):

 

 

 

 

General

ID :1 (0x1)
Format :MPEG-TS
File size :8.87 GiB
Duration :2h 29mn
Overall bit rate mode :Variable
Overall bit rate :8 466 Kbps

 

 

Video

ID :2001 (0x7D1)
Menu ID :1 (0x1)
Format :AVC
Format/Info :Advanced Video Codec
Format profile :High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC :Yes
Format settings, ReFrames :4 frames
Format settings, GOP :M=3, N=15
Codec ID :27
Duration :2h 29mn
Bit rate :7 207 Kbps
Width :1 280 pixels
Height :720 pixels
Display aspect ratio :16:9
Frame rate :50.000 fps
Standard :Component
Color space :YUV
Chroma subsampling :4:2:0
Bit depth :8 bits
Scan type :Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) :0.156
Stream size :7.55 GiB (85%)

 

 

Audio #1

ID :2011 (0x7DB)
Menu ID :1 (0x1)
Format :MPEG Audio
Format version :Version 1
Format profile :Layer 2
Codec ID :4
Duration :2h 29mn
Bit rate mode :Constant
Bit rate :192 Kbps
Channel(s) :2 channels
Sampling rate :48.0 KHz
Compression mode :Lossy
Delay relative to video :-600ms
Stream size :206 MiB (2%)
Language :German
Language, more info :Clean effects

 

 

Audio #2

ID :2012 (0x7DC)
Menu ID :1 (0x1)
Format :MPEG Audio
Format version :Version 1
Format profile :Layer 2
Codec ID :4
Duration :2h 29mn
Bit rate mode :Constant
Bit rate :192 Kbps
Channel(s) :2 channels
Sampling rate :48.0 KHz
Compression mode :Lossy
Delay relative to video :-575ms
Stream size :206 MiB (2%)
Language :English
Language, more info :Clean effects

 

 

Audio #3

ID :2041 (0x7F9)
Menu ID :1 (0x1)
Format :AC-3
Format/Info :Audio Coding 3
Mode extension :CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness :Big
Codec ID :6
Duration :2h 29mn
Bit rate mode :Constant
Bit rate :448 Kbps
Channel(s) :2 channels
Channel positions :Front: L R
Sampling rate :48.0 KHz
Bit depth :16 bits
Compression mode :Lossy
Delay relative to video :-663ms
Stream size :481 MiB (5%)

 

 

 

I want to save the videos on a hard drive to play it on TV

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 24, 2013 7:28 AM   in reply to Asembler1387900
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 24, 2013 8:20 AM   in reply to Asembler1387900

    File size is determined by the Duration, and then the Bit-Rate. Bit-Rate determines quality. So, it is most likely that if you Trimmed out footage (decreasing Duration), then your Bit-Rate is higher, than the original, hence the larger file size.

     

    Since H.264 is a compressed CODEC, and your material was already compressed to begin with, and is now being compressed a second time, you might want the Bit-Rate to be a bit higher, rather than lower, to maintain quality. As for how much quality loss you might end up with, only you can tell whether it's too much. I would test the Shared file, and look carefully in scenes with action, to determine if I could live with the quality.

     

    Good luck,

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 24, 2013 8:38 AM   in reply to Asembler1387900

    Asembler137900

     

    Let us talk specifics.

     

    Just so that I do not take anything for granted, please confirm that the MediaInfo readout is for your source media that you have imported into Premiere Elements 11 (presumed Windows) via Add Media to Project Assets to Timeline.

     

    For now I will focus on the Video aspect.

     

    That source has a frame size of 1280 x 720 pixels. In that regard, I would like to know:

    Publish+Share

    Computer

    "What?" and What specific preset you selected and what all the settings were under the Advanced Button/Video Tab of the preset.

     

    Of note is the 8466 Kbps (kilobits per second) video bitrate aka about 8.26 Mbps (megabits per second) for your source that you are exporting to something with a target bitrate of 7 Mbps and a maximum bitrate of 15 Mbps using a variable bitrate.

     

    Frame size as well as bitrate can impact the export file size, especially if your 1280 x 720 source is being exported as 1920 x 1080.

     

    Are you maining the 50 progressive frames per second in the export?

     

    Have you added any slow motion effects to your source media on the Timeline?

     

    Let us explore those thoughts for now to rule them in or out of the matter.

     

    Thanks.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 24, 2013 11:03 AM   in reply to Asembler1387900

    Asembler1287900

     

    Thank you for the follow up information.

     

    I did not have a MPEG TS 1280 x 720 @ 50 progressive frames per second video to start with, so my goal for a quick look first hand at your issue was to find a MPEG TS file that I could import into Premiere Elements 11 and export to a file with the properties as close as possible to the original.

     

    1. Source was

     

    MPEG TS with the .ts file extension

    141 MB file size

    Duration = 1 min 1 sec

    Overall Bitrate = 19.4 Mbps (megabits per second) - Bitrate was given as 19.4 Mbps with no Maximum Bitrate given in the readout.

    Frame Size 1920 x 1080 pixels

    Frame Rate = 29.97 interlaced frames per second

    Field Order = Upper Field First

     

    2. My Export was

    Publish+Share

    Computer

    AVCHD

    M2T - H264 1920 x 1080i30

    Under the Advanced Button of the preset, I changed the Target Bitrate to 17.6 Mbps and the Maximum Bitrate to 20.0 Mbps

     

    The export properties (from MediaInfo) for this H.264.m2t file (with a 1 minute duration) included

    File Size = 152 MB

    Overall Bitrate = 20.7 Mbps, Bitrate = 19.5 Mbps, and Maximum Bitrate = 20.0 Mbps

     

    Then I went back to Premiere Elements 11 project and deleted half the this file on the Timeline, resulting in a 30 second instead of a 1 minute content. Then I did the same export as for the 1 minute version.

     

    The export properties (from MediaInfo) for this H.264.m2t file (with a 30 second duration) included

    File Size = 78.5 MB

    Overall Bitrate = 20.7 Mbps, Bitrate = 19.5 Mbps, and Maximum Bitrate = 20.0 Mbps

     

    I am still thinking about this and what next, but I am left with

    a. Why the difference in what I found and Hunt's generalization

    File size is determined by the Duration, and then the Bit-Rate. Bit-Rate determines quality. So, it is most likely that if you Trimmed out footage (decreasing Duration), then your Bit-Rate is higher, than the original, hence the larger file size.

     

    b.How much, if any, your audio is contributing to the overall bitrate and file size. You show 3 audio files in this Timeline

    MPEG Audio @ bitrate 192 Kbps

    MPEG Audio @ bitrate 192 Kbps

    and

    Dolby Digital @ bitrate 448 Kbps

    and all of them combining to Dolby Digital @ bitrate 384 Kbps

     

    I will think about this some more. I look forward to further comments from you and Hunt on this matter.

     

    Thanks.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 24, 2013 2:16 PM   in reply to Asembler1387900

    Asembler1387900

     

    I have believed your issue to be:

     

    You have a 720p50 file (MPEG TS) that you imported into Premere Elements 11 to edit, and you want to export that file to a comparable file for playback on your computer. The problem is that Share/Computer/AVCHD with the 720p50 preset (adjusted bitrate) gives you a file size double the original. Further when you attempt to remove part of the video, thinking to reduce the file size, it does not.

     

    Based on my interpretation of all of that, I have looked a two models each at 1280 x 720 @ 50 progressive frames per second at fixed settings for variable bitrate/target and maximum.

    a. MPEG TS  to AVCHD.m2t

    and

    b. MPEG2.mpg to AVCHD.m2t

     

    In each case, the file size of the export AVCHD.m2t was not doubled that of the original (compare in one case BEFORE 141 MB vs AFTER 152 MB; and in other about 32 MB BEFORE and AFTER.

    and

    Removing 1/2 the video frames resulted in an export with lower file size and the overall, target, and maximum bitrate specifications of the export settings (compare in one case BEFORE 141 MB vs AFTER 78 MB).

     

    I am still thinking about your observations and Hunt's comments and have not reconciled with them yet.

     

    The answer for your increased export file size may point to the differences between the original  the edited content and the export settings something affecting the audio. Not sure at this point.

     

    Based on what you present for source media properties, I would suggest the Premiere Elements project preset of

    PAL

    DSLR

    720p

    DSLR 720p50

    and for export

    Publish+Share

    Computer

    AVCHD

    MP4 HD 720p50 or M2T HD 720p50 and adjusting the bitrate under the Advanced Button until you get a good compromise between file size and quality. I would start with the defaults and adjust accordingly after you get a baseline result.

     

    I will think about this some more as I wait for follow up from you and Hunt.

     

    Thanks.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 24, 2013 3:42 PM   in reply to Asembler1387900

    Amembler137900

     

    Calculated vs given Bitrate data...

     

    Some calculations that I attempted in support of my observations posted in my previous latest posts in this thread:

     

    (the original was 141.3 MB file, 1821 frames, 1 minute duration, Overall Bitrate given as 19.4 Mbps by MediaIndo.)

     

    Export of original as AVCHD.m2t

    147MB file

    1821 frames

    1 minute duration

    Overall Bitrate given in MediaInfo readout = 20.1 Mbps (megabytes per second)

     

    147 MB/1 min = 1176  megabits/60 seconds = 19.6 Mbps (megabits per second)

    when you remove half the file (frames), the export

    74.6 MB

    910 frames

    31 seconds duration

    Overall Bitrate given in MediaInfo readout = 20.1 Mbps (megabytes per second)

     

    74.6 MB/31 seconds = 597 megabits/31 seconds = 19.3 Mbps (megabits per second)

    So I conclude that when I remove frames  and change nothing else, I am lowering the file size and not making any change in Bitrate in Premiere Elements export.

     

    But with all of the above and before, I do not know if we are any closer to deciding why you are seeing the doubling of your file size with the export that you describe. Please read my suggestions for moving forward, addressed in prior thread.

     

    Am I overlooking something? Increasing your bitrate by decreasing the content duration does not seem to be a viable explanation for this file size doubling.

     

    Thanks.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 24, 2013 6:12 PM   in reply to Asembler1387900

    Asembler1387900

     

    Great, great news that the export bitrate settings adjustment solved your issue.. Thanks for the follow up.

     

    Thanks for staying with the troubleshooting.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 24, 2013 8:19 PM   in reply to Asembler1387900

    Asembler1387900

     

    Sorry, but I did not see your post #8 until now. My comments to it now are after the fact since you have found your answers in the bitrate settings of your export.

     

    At the time when I posted the following it was not meant as try this or that. It documented the appropriate project settings for the project that you described as well as gave you details for my results which did not support your findings that started this thread. It was meant to help you sort out your details which you later did.

    Based on what you present for source media properties, I would suggest the Premiere Elements project preset of

    PAL

    DSLR

    720p

    DSLR 720p50

    and for export

    Publish+Share

    Computer

    AVCHD

    MP4 HD 720p50 or M2T HD 720p50 and adjusting the bitrate under the Advanced Button until you get a good compromise between file size and quality. I would start with the defaults and adjust accordingly after you get a baseline result.

    As for Premiere Elements 11 supporting Smart Rendering, I would pass that question on to Steve Grisetti and Bill Hunt for comments. But I believe that, except for maybe the certain DV format cited by Steve Grisetti in some old posts, it does not, and that you would need to go to Premiere Pro CS6 for that feature.

    http://blogs.adobe.com/kevinmonahan/2012/10/11/smart-rendering-in-prem iere-pro-cs6-6-0-1-and-later/

     

    Thank you for the opportunity to try to help you sort out your Premiere Elements project issues.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 25, 2013 12:23 PM   in reply to A.T. Romano

    ATR,

     

    "Smart Rendering" is not supported in either Premiere Pro, or Premiere Elements. Some NLE (Non Linear Editor) and utility programs DO support at least a version of Smart Rendering, but even then, there are limitations.

     

    As an example, if one has compressed material on the Timeline, and the only editing is either the addition of more compressed material (same specs.) or the removal of compressed material, then those programs, that support Smart Rendering will be able to output an AV file, that just copies over the compressed material, with no Transcoding involved. However, if one adds any form of overlay, say a Title, PiP (Picture in Picture), or even a Transition, the areas that are affected by the overlay WILL need to be Transcoded, where the material "between" the points of overlay will NOT need to be Transcoded. Depending on the material involved, this can cause the visual quality of the output file to differ, between the areas where some form of overlay was used, and those areas with no overlay. This trips up many, who assume that Smart Rendering will be employed, regardless of what editing they perform - only additions of material, or deletion of material will fall into the Smart Rendering scope.

     

    There is talk of PrPro CC (Creative Cloud) providing some form of Smart Rendering, but I have not seen any details on it. If it appears in the version slated for the June 17th release, then we will know. If it is further down the development pipeline, we will likely have to wait, before we learn the details of just what its capabilities are. Right now, only tiny hints that it might be added, but not how - yet.

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 25, 2013 10:08 AM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    On a camcorder forum that largely focuses on AVCHD equipment, "Smart" or "Lossless" rendering has been nearly beat to death in discussion over the past many months.

     

    The summary:

     

    NLE software that comes with Panasonic and Sony cameras will edit losslessly.  I'm not sure about Canon.  It is PC only.  The sum of the parts will be equal to the whole final project.  Transitions, effects and adjustments are severely limited.  Panasonic's is called HDWriter and Sony's is called PlayMemories Home.  They are brand specific and can't use footage outside the brand.  I've used both.  You can trim, split and combine.  The results are flawless and perfect.

     

    On that same forum the only "Smart Render" NLE is said to somehow identify clips that have not had any adjustment and use them as direct copies in the final output.  Where titles, transitions and effects are applied to individual clips, only those clips are "rendered" or "transcoded". 

     

    The NLE is called "MPEG Smart Renderer 4".  Read about it here:  http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tmsr4.html

     

    I have not tried it because it seems useless.  Why would I not want to improve video with effects, adjustments, transitions, titles, etc?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 25, 2013 10:19 AM   in reply to whsprague

    Bill,

     

    Thank you for that information.

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 25, 2013 11:20 AM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Hunt

     

    Thanks for addressing the Smart Rendering question posed by Asembler1387900.

     

    But, you wrote:

    "Smart Rendering" is not supported in either Premiere Pro, or Premiere Elements.

    How does the Premiere Pro aspect of your response tie in with the content of the link that I came across and posted

    http://blogs.adobe.com/kevinmonahan/2012/10/11/smart-rendering-in-prem iere-pro-cs6-6-0-1-and-later/

    which seems to suggest there is Smart Rendering feature in Premiere Pro CS6.

     

    Could you elaborate on the point?

     

    Thanks.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 25, 2013 12:21 PM   in reply to A.T. Romano

    To me, it indicates that a version of Smart Rendering WAS added with the CS 6.0.1 update. The last that I had seen, regarding that function was earlier, and it was intimated that it might not be implemented until what was then referred to as CS 6.5, CS 7, or CSNext. I had not seen Kevin's announcement that it was added, so greatly appreciate that link.

     

    Thank you,

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 25, 2013 2:15 PM   in reply to Asembler1387900

    Asembler1387900

     

    My understanding regarding the Variable Bitrate's Target Bitrate is that it is the bitrate that you would like to hit (hence, name Target Bitrate); whereas the Maximum Bitrate is the maximum bitrate allowable. Using VBR, higher bitrate is allocated to more complex areas and lower bitrate to those which are less complex. The average of the highs and lows is termed Average/Overall  Bitrate.

     

    As I said, my results were posted to show what I obtained with these settings in my mini test runs. The Timelines content in these mini test runs was not complex, and, as you saw in my posted results, the export settings bitrates were reflected in the bitrate properties readout for

    the export.

     

    If you are setting Target at 7 Mbps and Maximum at 15 Mbps and your Average/Overall bitrate is close to 15, one assumption that I might make is that you have developed a complex Timeline requiring the allocation of the higher bitrate to much of your content.

     

    What have you done about your Target and Maximum Bitrate settings for your export? Can you maintain quality if you lower the maximum below 15 Mbps. I suspect not if your Average/Overall bitrate is 14.8 Mbps, but that is just speculation. On the other side of things, with the results that you are getting, I doubt if CBR at 8 Mbps would be a remedy.

     

    What do you think?

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 25, 2013 4:22 PM   in reply to Asembler1387900

    Asembler1387900

     

    The answer to your question may be related to the editing of the original that went on the Timeline and the complexity of it. It is the edited Timeline content that you are exporting, not the original.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 25, 2013 4:32 PM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Premiere CS6 does support smart rendering for certain formats.

    For Premiere CC several have been added.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 25, 2013 8:40 PM   in reply to Ann Bens

    Ann Bens wrote:

     

    Premiere CS6 does support smart rendering for certain formats.

    For Premiere CC several have been added.

    That is interesting information.  But, this is a forum about an $80 NLE called "Premier Elements" and how to make the best of it.  Premier CC is and will be only a dream for me.

     

    Bill

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 25, 2013 8:45 PM   in reply to whsprague

    And hence the problem.

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 25, 2013 9:07 PM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Bill Hunt wrote:

     

    And hence the problem.

     

    Hunt

    It is not a "problem".  PrE is wonderful software.  Understand what it does and don't try to make it do what it won't!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 26, 2013 5:46 AM   in reply to whsprague

    whsprague wrote:

     

    Ann Bens wrote:

     

    Premiere CS6 does support smart rendering for certain formats.

    For Premiere CC several have been added.

    That is interesting information.  But, this is a forum about an $80 NLE called "Premier Elements" and how to make the best of it.  Premier CC is and will be only a dream for me.

     

    Bill

    I was just supplying the correct information.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 26, 2013 5:52 AM   in reply to Asembler1387900

    Asembler1387900 wrote:

     

    Now another question: Is there a possibility to do a kind of job list where I can add projects which are rendered after each other, so that I can render all my projects over night?

     

    Yes that possibility excites but not in Elements. As said before its a 80 dollar NLE. You need big brother to do that for you.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 26, 2013 7:18 AM   in reply to Asembler1387900

    Asembler1387900

     

    Could you please clarify when your wrote in Post #26

    I've found settings with an okay size and quality. For the target bit rate I take the average bit rate from the source given by MediaInfo and add 1 Mbps. For the maximum bit rate I take the sources value adding 5 Mbps. As I don't add any effects to the film the result is good.

     

    As I understood from your readout for your 720p50 source media, that source has an "Overall Bitrate" = 8.27 Mbps for the whole and "Bitrate" = 7.207 Mbps for the video portion of the file. And, when you took that source into a Premiere Elements 720p50 workflow to export for 720p50 with Target Bitrate = 7 Mbps and Maximum Bitrate = 15 Mbps, you obtained an export file with doubled file size which was unacceptable to you.

     

    You now post  that you have found settings that work for you for file size and quality. They seem to be VBR:

    Target Bitrate = 9.27

    Maximum Bitrate = 13.27 or 14.27 Mbps

    Please confirm.

     

    Based on all of that, these are my questions:

     

    1. From what was the Maximum Bitrate that you went with derived (as per "I take the sources value adding 5 Mbps")...MediaInfo "Overall bitrate" (8.27 Mbps) of "bitrate" (7.207 Mbps) as per MediaInfo naming? Just want to be sure.

     

    2. What was all the Video and Audio Bitrate information ("Overall Bitrate", "Bitrate", or however named) supplied for the 720p50 export for the 720p50 export with export settings that included Target Bitrate = 9.27 Mbps and Maximum Bitrate = 13.27 or 14.27 MBps...or whatever these new settings were?

     

    3. Did you achieve your wanted file size and quality using these new settings using Premiere Elements 720p50 export or did you switch to another program where you got what you wanted?

     

    Thank you.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 26, 2013 6:00 PM   in reply to Asembler1387900

    Asembler137900

     

    Thanks for the reply.

     

    I would still like to see the MediaInfo readout for your export with which you are content for file size and quality.

     

    But I understand that you are busy and may not have the time. But, if you do, it may give me more insight into the overall before and after for the file (not just in terms of video bitrate settings).

     

    Thank you again.

     

    ATR

     
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