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layout and ap div in Dreamweaver CC

Jun 26, 2013 5:42 PM

Tags: #div #dreamweaver #layout #ap #cc

where is the layout panel and where is the draw ap div button in Dreamweaver cc?

 

i hope it's hidden but not been taken away

 

 

 

 


help please

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 26, 2013 6:14 PM   in reply to KaNe_Nod

    You should NOT under any circumstances, be designing a website with APDivs.

    That said, those panels are gone in CC, because they were used for design techniques long abandoned by professional web designers.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 27, 2013 12:38 AM   in reply to KaNe_Nod

    KaNe_Nod wrote:

     

    come on man it's work fine for me and i been useing apdivs since it appear and you can creative web site's with it

     

    You are one within a select group that can produce a web site using absolute positioning. I used to belong to your group many (about 10) years ago until monitor sizes changed from a standard 800x600.

     

    With the myriad of current screen sizes, it is impossible to use AP's for layouts.

     

    If you want to persist with old technology, you should continue using older versions of DW

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 27, 2013 1:27 AM   in reply to KaNe_Nod

    Please refer this link for more details.

     

    AP Divs will throw all content over the page as browser sizes shift.

     

    They may look good in dreamweaver or your own browser, but other browsers with different window sizes will "reposition" those divs and possibly make everything unaligned.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 27, 2013 5:41 AM   in reply to bgupta16

    If you really want to see APDivs explode your design, go into Firefox and choose View > Zoom > Zoom Text Only then play around with Ctrl + and Ctrl -.

     

    Since you can't control what your viewer uses as their default font size, you can't control your designs when you use APDivs.

     

    Thankfully Adobe saw fit to remove them from DW. Up until recently, I would suspect about 10-15% of the problems brought to the forum were Absolute Positioning related in some manner.

     
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    Jun 28, 2013 8:31 AM   in reply to KaNe_Nod

    I think the removal of DRAW AP DIV is going to be met with mixed emotions - probably more on the angry and upset side. Dreamweaver, for years, has appealed to the visual designer as well as the more code-oriented one. People use it at different levels and the nice thing about the DRAW aspect was that it allowed a person to quickly "layout" a site or page and then make adjustments to it to comply properly with code/best practices. With the layout feature gone, the product feels less about creativity and design and more about the professional. I can see both sides of the arguement, though.

     

    This is a classic example of a product being developed with one customer group considered and not the whole.

     

    I know several hundred students that got their first exposure to website design/layout by using the DRAW AP Div tool, plus from an accessability standpoint, now we have a challenge.

     

    I think it should just be an option that can be hidden. It is really weird to see it go and sad that all user groups are not being considered. Yes, we need to move ahead but you need to inform and educate the customer as to why - not just rip it out.

     

    I think the lack this feature alone will keep many in DW CS6 as the creative aspect and the intuative approach is gone.

     

    My .02.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 28, 2013 10:20 AM   in reply to Jon Fritz II

     

    Thankfully Adobe saw fit to remove them from DW.

    Yes.  Good riddance to APDiv Layers.  It's a shame we waited this long.  Should have been removed 4 versions ago.

     

     

    Nancy O.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 4, 2013 5:35 AM   in reply to KaNe_Nod

    Why not draw the website in PS and pass that on to the developers?

     

    Having said that, many designers do learn basic markup and CSS and are quite happy to not have to revert to AP's

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 20, 2013 2:11 PM   in reply to KaNe_Nod

    I have to agree with you. The use of AP divs for design purposes is unparalled. And I have always found those who would tell me not to use something becasue it doesn't work for one reason or another is code for they don't know how to use them and make them work, or at least in their world. Face it, we all have different reasons for using tools and have different markets to attack. One size doesn't necessarily fit all.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 20, 2013 2:43 PM   in reply to polygrinder

    One size doesn't necessarily fit all.

    I couldn't agree more.  Especially now given all the different browsers, mobile/tablet devices and display sizes we must cater to.  A one size fits all approach just doesn't cut it anymore. 

     

    Despite how you may feel about APDivs/Layers, they DON'T work in responsive layouts because they remove content from the normal document flow. This isn't about coding elitism either. It all comes down to usability.  If site visitors can't  use the sites you create, they will go elsewhere.

     

     

    Nancy O.

     
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    Jul 23, 2013 4:05 AM   in reply to Jon Fritz II

    A vast majority of highly trafficked, professionally developed sites would encounter that same 'design explosion' given in your example. If you are looking to maintain some consistency in the design and visual appeal of your site you cannot also build to accommodate viewers who choose to browse with font sizes that are ridiculously large.

     
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    Jul 23, 2013 4:12 AM   in reply to Nancy O.

    Unfortunately many of the posts on this forum stating that the use of AP Divs is obsolete or incorrect have been made, in my opinion, by developers with little concern or understanding of modern design and he necessary fact that some sacrifice must be made in order to preserve visual appeal.

     

    If you take he advice of Nancy O. You will have a site that your grandparents can read without using their glasses, but its not going to win many people over from a design standpoint, which is a critical part of marketing on the internet.

     

    Using AP Divs nested inside Relative-positioned divs is a good way to strike some balance. I think it is grossly overstated that AP Divs are never to be used. Comical, in fact.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 23, 2013 7:31 AM   in reply to R00sevelt77

    R00sevelt77 wrote:

     

    Unfortunately many of the posts on this forum stating that the use of AP Divs is obsolete or incorrect have been made, in my opinion, by developers with little concern or understanding of modern design and he necessary fact that some sacrifice must be made in order to preserve visual appeal.

     

    If you take he advice of Nancy O. You will have a site that your grandparents can read without using their glasses, but its not going to win many people over from a design standpoint, which is a critical part of marketing on the internet.

     

    Using AP Divs nested inside Relative-positioned divs is a good way to strike some balance. I think it is grossly overstated that AP Divs are never to be used. Comical, in fact.

    That's purely a matter of opinion. Facts, and W3C validation criteria will belie it in EVERY case.

     

    Some reading to enlighten you:


    http://www.w3schools.com/jsref/prop_style_position.asp  (The position property is supported in all major browsers. Note: The value "inherit" is not supported in IE7 and earlier. IE8 requires a !DOCTYPE. IE9 supports "inherit".)


    http://www.w3schools.com/css/css_positioning.asp  (Absolutely positioned elements are removed from the normal flow. The document and other elements behave like the absolutely positioned element does not exist.)


     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 23, 2013 9:50 AM   in reply to R00sevelt77

    I think it is grossly overstated that AP Divs are never to be used.

    I never said APDivs should never be used.  In rare situations, APDivs serve a much needed purpose  -- such as modal windows, drop-menus, and disjointed rollovers. 

     

    However, in primary layouts they often cause more harm than good which can and often does lead to usability issues.  If you're not designing pages that can be comfortably viewed by everyone and on various display sizes, you're not meeting the challenges of today's web.

     

     

    Nancy O.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 14, 2013 11:35 AM   in reply to KaNe_Nod

    I hate to re-open this debate as it seems to be polarising the percieved differences between coders and designers but I am in search of a long term or at least future proof solution...

    Like a lot of graphic designers I work in print design as well as for screen. In my 25+ years in this business I have only be able to work 'visually' i.e. with things that I can see in front of me. I use AP Divs because I can actually design a layout according to the principles of graphic design (typography, hierarchy, colour, composition and imagery) I am however aware that there is a problem with them.

    I have tried several times to learn and use 'normal' divs but frankly the process reminds me of trying to program my ZX Spectrum in hex code in the 1980's...

    Does anyone think there may be a way in which we designers might be able to keep using dreamweaver without all this coding? Could Adobe make a DIV which keeps everyone happy?

    (Oh and please don't suggest Muse, it's like using MySpace...)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 14, 2013 12:24 PM   in reply to patstini1

    I also worked in print before making the leap (and it was a mind bending leap) to web design.  I had to set-aside almost everything I learned about print and learn to think like a responsible web designer.  It's a totally different discipline.  And it's constantly changing with the steady emergence of new technologies.   

     

    The holy grail you're seeking has almost nothing to do with Adobe or Dreamweaver and everything to do with evolving web standards and how various browsers  interpret them. 

     

    Unfortunately, no 2 browsers or even 2 versions of the same browser do everything exactly the same way.  And then we have individual preferences to cope with which can destroy an otherwise perfect layout.   Print designers never have to deal with these challenges because printed media is static.

     

    I don't like Muse either.  There are several layout frameworks & tools you can use to jump start your web projects in Dreamweaver.  Professional results.  No APDivs required.

     

    Foundation Zurb

    http://foundation.zurb.com/templates.php

     

    Skeleton Boilerplate

    http://www.getskeleton.com/

     

    Initializr (HTML5 Boilerplate, Responsive or Bootstrap)

    http://www.initializr.com/

     

    DMX Zone's Bootstrap extension for DW

    http://www.dmxzone.com/go/21759/dmxzone-bootstrap/

     

    Project Seven's Page Packs (CSS Templates)

    http://www.projectseven.com/products/templates/index.htm

     

     

    Nancy O.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 10, 2013 10:47 AM   in reply to bgupta16

    I would disagree that drawing AP divs is obsolete. One could design a whole website with AP divs and use a wrapper that centers the elements of the website so that it aligns in accordance with screen size. This whole website is designed using AP divs - http://www.liep2vsk.edu.lv/

     

    It's just that some people prefer to design visually. Pity if Adobe completely abandons AP DIVs.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 10, 2013 12:11 PM   in reply to infatum

    infatum wrote:

     

    ...One could design a whole website with AP divs

    One could design a whole website with Photoshop or Fireworks or even Microsoft Word too. That DOESN'T mean anyone SHOULD.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 10, 2013 2:50 PM   in reply to infatum

    >It's just that some people prefer to design visually.

     

    Some people? I can't think of anyone who wouldn't prefer to design visually. It's just that the results are never as good. By the way, the site you referenced looks terrible on my system on IE and FF.  With default zoom settings, I need to scroll horizontally to see the entire page.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 10, 2013 3:27 PM   in reply to bregent

    I'll add to that, there are a load of HTML errors: http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.liep2vsk. edu.lv%2F

     

    I don't have any "side scrolling" issues, but then I'm on a 1920X1080 monitor, so I RARELY have to scroll sideways to fit a full page, but then I'm the exception and NOT the rule. At 1440X900 it starts needing to scroll both ways. I'd hate to think what it looks like for someone who hits it on a smartphone.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 11, 2013 11:03 AM   in reply to Mike M

    Glad some could point to the one-and-only W3 validator. It's strange that whenever I try to fix some elements the W3 validator deems as an error, these elements stop functioning. And it's strange Dreamweaver doesn't mark these very same errors, but once I begin to correct them according to W3 standards the Dreamweaver shows a syntax error =)

     

    I don't bother setting the "alt" for an image. Are you going to critique me for that?

    Some syntax errors belong to external scripts. How strange that they still work no matter what the W3 validator shoutsout.

     

    I had to put the centering wrapper div tag called <div id="mainArea"> before the <body> tag in order to avoid placing it before every time the new element is inserted (since every new element appears just after the <body> tag and shifts the centering wrapper lower and lower. Thus, the new element falls out of the centering design and appears misaligned). How couldn't the W3 validator foresee this? It was the only workaround I found.   

     

    It's weird W3 validator shows errors of unclosed body tags when it's there. Or am I missing something? Enlighten me since my narrow expertise as a web developer has exhausted itself. I'm not a web developer, I have learned things by random clicking the buttons. And it turned out AP DIV was one of my favorite ones.

     

    And yes, the smartphone generation is an issue. I had designed this website before cell phones became smart like you =) Hope I'd get more time to redesign the website. But hey, it's up and running. 

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 11, 2013 4:13 PM   in reply to infatum

    Gosh, does this take me back in time when I used to have the same reaction to the Validator. I also aired my frustrations in this forum especially when these idiots at the W3 consortium decided that using proprietary properties  in an XHTML (Extensible -HTML) document was illegal. Nothing Extensible about that.

     

    And why should I care about the ALT setting? Why should I care if blind people using screen readers cannot follow my document? Why should I care if Google doesn't include the gist of my site?

     

    Now, many moons later and having had decent tutors - like the ones found here (even the bullish ones, Al) - to help me, I am now glad to have put that period behind me. I am a still-learning-webdeveloper and as such I can unequivocally tell you that placing markup before the BODY-tag is one of the worst mistakes one can make, more so when one notices that the said markup has not been closed properly.

     

    Perhaps one does not realise that the BODY element is a wrapper and that the style rules that have been applied to the introduced wrapper can actually be applied to the BODY element. This will do away with the notion of I had to put the centering wrapper div tag called <div id="mainArea"> before the <body> tag.

     

    It is great to read your statement " I'm not a web developer", this shows that you are willing to learn and believe it or not, we are altruistic enough to help you.

     

    To start with, when styling a normal layout, there is no need to use position. The default value for position, static, allow elements to render in order, as they appear in the document flow.

     

    I must admit that I have never come across a document that has had so many AP's and still function to some extent. This case negates the notion that one should not use AP's. But boy, have you made it hard on yourself, just have a look at the styles section. You have had to create a separate element for nearly every section of your document, a mind boggling exercise. Why go to this extent when it is so easy to create the same document with fewer style rules? Why not use classes instead of limiting ID's?

     

    I could go on like this forever, suffice to say, welcome to the fold.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 11, 2013 4:42 PM   in reply to infatum

    I've read estimates that by 2016, 90% of all web traffic will be from phones. NOT building for them seems like locking your doors 24/7 and wondering why you never hget any business.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 12, 2013 1:36 AM   in reply to Ben Pleysier

    Dear Ben,

     

    Problem with the wrapper that I have faced is not simply about enclosing the wrapper into the <body> tag. Surely I'm not the smartest around here, but smarter than that. Every time I insert a new element the code gets written just after the <body> tag. Let me exemplify.

     

    Let's say I do it according to what it should like, the <body> tag first, the opening centering wrapper ("mainArea") second, with all other divs following afterwards:

    <body>

    <div id="mainArea">

    <div id="apDiv65"><img src="ico/certified.png" width="81" height="101" /></div>

     

    Now, if I were to draw a new AP div using the design mode, say it would be apDiv66 in this case, it somehow would jump just after the <body> tag, thus falling outside the centering wrapper. I would have to cut and paste the centering wrapper <div id="mainArea"> every time I draw new AP divs. Example below:

     

    <body>

    <div id="apDiv66"></div>    ---- this apDiv would fall outside and will not center

    <div id="mainArea">

    <div id="apDiv65"><img src="ico/certified.png" width="81" height="101" /></div>

     

    I decided to check if placing the centering wrapper in the <head> tag would solve the issue of new AP Divs and it did.

     

    Regarding the position. Whenever I draw an apDiv within the Dreamweaver (yes, I draw them in the Design mode) the "position: absolute;" gets written alongside with the right, left, top, width and z-index properties automatically. If I were to take it out, the ap Div appear at the left corner of the document. Or am I talking about a different positioning?

     

    I agree that creating a unique style for every ap Div is sometimes time-consuming (unless one uses copy-paste from the existing nearby elements). I will look into the classes and styles. Thank you for the advice.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 12, 2013 2:00 AM   in reply to infatum

    Perhaps I was not clear, so I will try again.

     

    At the moment you have

     

    <div id="mainArea">

         <body>

              .......

         </body>

    and

     

    body {

        background-image: url();

        margin: auto;

        width: auto;

        position: relative;

        z-index: auto;

        left: auto;

        top: auto;

        right: auto;

        bottom: auto;

        clip: rect(auto,auto,auto,auto);

        page-break-before: auto;

        page-break-after: auto;

    }

    #mainArea {

        position: relative;

        width: 1150px;

        margin-left: auto;

        margin-right: auto;a:hover {

        color: #0F0;

    }

    What I am saying is

    <body>

         .......

    </body>

    and

    body {

        margin: auto;

        width: 1150px;

        position: relative;

    }

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 12, 2013 2:18 AM   in reply to Mike M

    Thanks, I would have to consider the stats. Perhaps shifting away from flash technology on the website since some browsers on tablet pcs and smart phones don't support it, have issues with it or require a manual install (which most of the non-tech users will not follow. By most of the users it is perceived as either working or not.)

    I consider starting the website from a scratch with a pre-built template like Joomla and a web-based CMS system that doesn't need a software package and can be managed from any PC. Perhaps, this will mean less customization possibilities, but it will be less time-consuming.  

     

    Stats alone, but I believe we are also going to have big screens as well. TVs are becoming smart as well with internet on the rise. Plus, don't write off usual computers and notebooks.

     

    I'm less concerned about business since I work at public school (non-profit, tight budget), but I must agree that if I was in business I'd have gone with the dinosaurs.   

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 12, 2013 2:44 AM   in reply to Ben Pleysier

    I have experimented with your example assuming the first change comes within the index.html file, while the second within the center.css file. Unfortunately it is not working. The whole website gets left-aligned. The idea of the wrapper is to center the whole website according to user screen resolution. However, thank you for trying. 

     
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    Oct 12, 2013 4:15 AM   in reply to infatum

    How strange that it did not work for you.

     

    Have a look at my attempt here

     

    PS 4 errors and 1 warning less

     

    Message was edited by: Ben Pleysier

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 12, 2013 5:56 AM   in reply to Ben Pleysier

    I thought I would give you a leg up by showing you how to properly develop a website. I have only showed the header.

     

    Have a look here http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fpleysier.com. au%2Finfatum2%2F and smile

     

    To make the document more attractive, the script for the date should be in an external file.

     

    Also, the document should allow older browsers to recognise HTML5 elements.

     

    If I have wetted your appetite and you have further questions, please start a new discussion.

     
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    Oct 12, 2013 12:16 PM   in reply to Ben Pleysier

    Now it works. I have figured out the changes you described were in the same index.html file. While I was also playing around with a center_all.css file which had that very same code. Thank you for describing how to keep the code nice and clean, but the question is, if it is working with the same functionality, does one need to bother about changing 30+ pages just to keep the W3 validator happy? =)

     

    Now I get the idea behind the image ALT and the screen readers. I've never thought of that. Thought it was for people who sit on 28.8K modem and wait for images to load observing the ALT text in the meantime.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 13, 2013 9:19 AM   in reply to infatum

    Having  been one of the more vocal critics of using absolute positioning for a general layout method, I'll say it again:

     

    AP divs should never be used as a layout tool. They work well for specialty purposes but will always take you to places you have no business being when used for a general approach.

     

    With regard to the value of the validator, think about this: does it make sense to debug a layout problem when you know the page contains HTML that does not validate? Admittedly, missing alt attributes do not affect the layout of the page, but do affect its usability.

     
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    Oct 13, 2013 9:34 AM   in reply to MurraySummers

    MurraySummers wrote:

     

    Having  been one of the more vocal critics of using absolute positioning for a general layout method, I'll say it again:

     

    AP divs should never be used as a layout tool. They work well for specialty purposes but will always take you to places you have no business being when used for a general approach.

     

    With regard to the value of the validator, think about this: does it make sense to debug a layout problem when you know the page contains HTML that does not validate? Admittedly, missing alt attributes do not affect the layout of the page, but do affect its usability.

    "Yeah! What he said!!!"


     
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    Oct 13, 2013 12:16 PM   in reply to infatum

    infatum wrote:

     

    Thank you for describing how to keep the code nice and clean, but the question is, if it is working with the same functionality, does one need to bother about changing 30+ pages just to keep the W3 validator happy? =)

     

     

    No, its not necessary at all in my opinion.

     

    Virtually none of the pages I produce will validate but they are 99% correctly coded, that's good enough for me. I test in the browsers I want to support...if the page works job done.

     

    I'll always maintain that once you write good html/css you will have no need for the validator. I can pretty much not validate any page I produce and 99% of the time know it's going to work in all major browsers first time.....that's because I know what I'm doing.

     

    You may hear that a page that doesnt vaildate won't work in this browser or that browser or that it will be ranked lower in search engines. This is all untrue. Infact validation is no guide as to if it will or won't render correctly.

     

    Don't rely on the validtor rely on your ability to produce code that works, any minor mistakes are immaterial.

     

    It's true, your page should not be packed with dozens of coding errors that's just sloppy but the odd one here and there isnt going to make any difference.

     
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    Oct 13, 2013 12:25 PM   in reply to MurraySummers

    MurraySummers wrote:

     

    With regard to the value of the validator, think about this: does it make sense to debug a layout problem when you know the page contains HTML that does not validate? Admittedly, missing alt attributes do not affect the layout of the page, but do affect its usability.

     

    Depends. Anyone any good can tell pretty quickly just by looking at the pages code whether to persue finding an issue regardless whether the page validates or not.

     

    I've stepped back from many a page on this forum because the page coding was awful. I've also found many an issue were the page wasn't valid and had nothng to do with validation but persisted because the coding was rather good.

     

    Hope you're on the mend now. I see the bump didn't manage to clear this obsession with validation (said with tongue in cheek)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 13, 2013 1:35 PM   in reply to osgood_

    I see the bump didn't manage to clear this obsession with validation (said with tongue in cheek)

     

    It only made it worse!

     

    I'm mending very well, thanks - much better than I expected. Will probably be able to begin physical therapy in couple of weeks. I will need it for both right knee and left shoulder.

     

    Depends. Anyone any good can tell pretty quickly just by looking at the pages code whether to persue finding an issue regardless whether the page validates or not.

     

    In a way, you have proved my point. When faced with a layout issue, the first thing you do is look at the code. In a way, you run a rough mental (virtual) validation. When you are good with code, you can do this and determine whether you need to go further with a real validation. And my point really is that one should not begin debugging a layout without having some evaluation of the code state. I'm assuming that most people who are using positioning as a layout method are not so good with code which is where the validator comes in.

     
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    Oct 14, 2013 12:34 AM   in reply to MurraySummers

    MurraySummers wrote:

     

    I see the bump didn't manage to clear this obsession with validation (said with tongue in cheek)

     

    It only made it worse!

     

    I'm mending very well, thanks - much better than I expected. Will probably be able to begin physical therapy in couple of weeks. I will need it for both right knee and left shoulder.

     

     

    Hope things progress well for you Murray. Nice to know you're heading in the right direction.

     

     

    MurraySummers wrote:

     

     

    In a way, you have proved my point. When faced with a layout issue, the first thing you do is look at the code. In a way, you run a rough mental (virtual) validation. When you are good with code, you can do this and determine whether you need to go further with a real validation. And my point really is that one should not begin debugging a layout without having some evaluation of the code state. I'm assuming that most people who are using positioning as a layout method are not so good with code which is where the validator comes in.

     

    If people are using positioning as their main layout technic then they need to learn how to code first before attempting to produce a 'real' website.

     

    Validator can help given you know your coding and what the validator errors actually mean but I wouldn't place as greater emphasis on it as some do.

     
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    Oct 14, 2013 3:53 AM   in reply to osgood_

    Fair enough. There's no better way to learn what the validator message mean than to validate and fix a couple of pages!

     
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