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Soft return and justify

Jul 9, 2013 4:53 AM

Hi,

 

When in a paragraph, I apply a soft return (shift+return) to force a line break, and that the paragraph's alignment is set to justify, InDesign fully justifies the line where the forced line break is inserted. The behaviour I would expect (that I'm looking for) is for InDesign to simply break the line at that point on the line without further justifying...almost as if it was the end of the paragraph. (If I left aligned instead of justified with last line aligned left the paragraph, it would be fine)

The reason I would like such behaviour is to have a new line within the same paragraph, but without the space before or space after of that paragraph. I guess I could accomplish this by creating several paragraph styles to be used in the same paragraph, as follows:

1- paragraph style P1: paragraph style with space before and space after (to be applied whenere there is no soft return within the paragraph)

2- top paragraph style: the paragraph style P1 with the space before and zero space after

3- middle paragraph style: the same paragraph style P1 with zero space before and zero space after

4- bottom paragraph style: the same paragraph style P1 with the space after and zero space before

 

Obviously, this adds a lot of complexity to a single paragraph and is also difficult to keep trakc of in case changes are to be made to the paragraph later (e.g. removing the soft return would imply re-applying paragraph styles to other parts of the paragraph again). For instance, if there is only one soft return in the paragraph, I would apply #2 to the part before the line break and #4 to the part after the line break. But if there are two soft returns in the paragraph, I would apply #2 to part before 1st line break, #3 to part after 1st line break and before 2nd line break, #4 to part after 2nd line break!

 

I have come across threads here reporting this issue but am not clear on what the best (better) workarounds are.

 

This is for CS4. Thanks.

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 9, 2013 4:58 AM   in reply to sPretzel

    What you are seeing is absolutely normalŠit's your workflow that flawed.

    Soft returns should be avoided except in rare instances. Using them as a

    matter of course is a recipes for disaster.

     

    You'll need to create more than one paragraph style and apply them

    appropriately .

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 9, 2013 6:13 AM   in reply to sPretzel

    I agree completely with Bob's statement.

    But if you want to do what you want to do, write SHIFT+Tab before the SHIFT-RETURN.

     

    (I don't like the expression soft return, nothing soft, it is a forced line break!)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 9, 2013 6:48 AM   in reply to sPretzel

    Since you're manually tweaking where specific lines break, consider applying the No Break property instead of the forced line break. You can create a character style that applies No Break to selected text, apply No Break to a selection as an override rather than as a character style. Alternatively, you can replace one or more normal spaces with non-breaking space characters, to force two or more words to move to the next line if they don't fit on the current line.

     

    Also, have you tried using the Single-Line Composer instead of the Paragraph Composer? Search Google for "indesign single line composer " without quotes for details.

     

    HTH

     

    Regards,

     

    Peter Gold

    KnowHow ProServices

    sPretzel wrote:

     

    Hi Bob. I realise that a line break within a paragraph may not be the standard practice in typesetting. But creating new styles to accomodate a seemingly simple line break means creating quite a few styles and then having to reapply styles as the content is edited. So it's a lot of added complexity both in terms of number of styles and the need to keep track of changes.

    In essence, I am using the line break within a paragraph, so even though there is a line break, it is still the same paragraph.

    Note that if I didn't justify but only left aligned the paragraph, InDesign would do just what I need without any tweak!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 9, 2013 7:32 AM   in reply to sPretzel

    Maybe italics, or bold (or bold italic). A change of font might also work (change to serif, or san serif - opposite of your body text)

    A screen shot of an example would be helpful in making pertinent suggestions.

    sPretzel wrote:

     

    How do you guys deal with a topic within a paragraph that further expands on the main topic of the paragraph but wouldn't really call for a new paragraph? Yet, it would still need to stand out within the paragraph. This is what I was using the line break for!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 9, 2013 7:42 AM   in reply to sPretzel

    A tab scares you and forced line breaks don't?

     

    IMO, I think you need to revisit your thought process here.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 9, 2013 12:02 PM   in reply to sPretzel

    It is not a TAB it is a RIGHT INTENTED TAB, which will foll the rest of the line with free space up to the next character or character group which is in your case the forced return.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 10, 2013 2:37 AM   in reply to sPretzel

    A justified paragraph will always try to fill up the line and reach the right margin. But you can easily control this by inserting a flush space after the last word on the line and the line break. The flush space will "Eat up" all the extra space and that perticular line will behave as if that one line was left aligned and not justified.

     

    Does this solve your problem?

     

    I exactly know the situation you are talking about. I encounter it regularly in typesetting "songs" where four lines of the same paragraph are set differently and last two lines are set differently but I don't want extra space between those paragraphs. I have often used another workaround: All my paragraph styles don't have space above or below. I have a special "Space" paragraph style, which I insert wherever needed. Not very elegant method, I agree... but is very useful in certain odd cases.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 10, 2013 2:44 AM   in reply to Apurva@Cygnet

    Sorry, the first statement does only fill the space, that does shift tab too!

    But your second statement is completely wrong. A wrong workflow. Nobody should do it. Because when it comes to column, frame or page breaks you will find this extra paragraph as extra space. And when it comes to headlines which keep options will keep the next paragraph on the same column, frame or page, the next paragraph with text will break away.

    An empty paragraph should be avoided in any case.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 10, 2013 3:03 AM   in reply to Willi Adelberger

    I entirely agree with both.

     

    Shift Tab and Flush space will do the same thing.

     

    The empty paragraph is a strict "No" in a structured workflow, but in the case that I describe it indeed is a boon. In my case these are poems and each will start on a new page so there is no question of free-flowing or uncontrolled break. It saves me from creating so many identical styles with only space above or below differences. Anyway, this is deviating from the main discussion.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 10, 2013 2:32 PM   in reply to sPretzel

    THese methods are only workarounds. The best is to create all paragraph styles needed. What hindes you to create 2 styles for your heading?! Every workaround causes more work. Why are so many users avoiding to use and to create styles. There is no reason to do so!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 10, 2013 3:01 PM   in reply to Willi Adelberger

    Interesting discussion. In terms of the OP question regarding how to highlight content within a paragraph, I guess it's a matter of style. I would use an em dash to separate related content that can stand by itself.Or if you need more dramatic contrast you can go with the suggestions in post 6. Regarding the paragraph style, I have used style for poems where sentences have a certain width and you cannot just apply a unique style for a whole paragraph. You just have to go line by line and separate them with a paragraph return. And to separate groups you use the space after in the last line. I'm sure there's other ways to achieve the same goal.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 10, 2013 9:54 PM   in reply to Ellis home

    In a poem I use left-justify, and if the line is longer, so that a part of the line has to be in the next line I use a forced return followed by a shift-tab. (In German in such a case a broken line has in the second line to adjust to the right edge.

    If a verse in a poem has always the same font, I use forced return (shift-return), one of the view cases where I apply it.

    If there is a change to italic, I use a different Para Style. If there is a regularity, I use the next style property.)

     

    If the last line contains the Author at the right edge or a Bible Verse has its reference at the end, even it is the same font style, I use a character style written as follow: RIGHT-TAB + EM-Space + NAME/REFERENCE. The character style is automatically applied via nested styles (or GREP is better but needs mire know how) and includes the EM-Space and the reference or name at the end. This ensures that there is a little bit more space between the reference and the text than a word space would normally do and if there is not enough room in the same line it is moved automatically to the next line. The spacing can also be changed to other fixed spaces and combination of them.

     

    I use in German only the N-dash with spaces before and after, because the Germany typography does not use very often the M-dash as English does. The N-dash (in German Halbgeviertstrich or 1/2-Geviert-Strich or Gedankenstrich or Spiegelstrich) is used as Bullet and as interruption in text. The M-dash (Geviertstrich or Streckenstrich) is only used for a distance between several Cities (like »München—Wien«) but also the N-dash can be used instead. The N-dash requires in German always a space before and after and should not appear at the beginning of a line (except as bullet), so I write it with a fixed space before (I replace via GREP the first space).

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 11, 2013 3:18 AM   in reply to sPretzel

    As Willi said in his earlier post, it is very dangerous to let an empty paragraph flow in your text. Not good practice at all. I suggested it from my experience but that case was entirely different and I still believe that in my case that 'sin' is acceptable because without it I would have 18 para styles instead of 6...

     

    Anyway, what you describe here about h1 and h2 is also an interesting case and yes, I have encountered it also. Here the problem can be simply solved by two versions of h2: one without space above (when it occurs after h1) and one with space above for all other places.

     

    Your problem is when "space after" of first para and "space before" of the second para "add" in InDesign. In Ventura, in such cases the space added is the larger number of the two. The theory is to give minimum space which will satisfy the requirement of both the styles. Suppose a chapter-hd has a "space after" of 2 pica and sub-hd has 'space above' of 1 pica. When Body Text follows chapter-hd it starts exactly after 2 picas but if sub-hd follows it, it starts after 3 picas. We usually don't want that to happen, do we? If we followed Ventura's method, we would still get 2 picas because it satisfies requirement of both the styles and when sub-hd appeared elsewhere, we expect it to have 1 pica "above"...

     

    Any thoughts on this?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 11, 2013 3:33 AM   in reply to Apurva Ashar

    I think 18 para styles are not much. It is not much work to use a para style system with a tree of depending on. So maintainance is minmum. I have prepaired a whole tree of predefined para styles. Which I use and this gives me the oportunity to use in every document para styles with the exactly same name which has advantages when it comes to book files and its synchroization and with exchange text via copy and paste.

    The char styles are defined as minimu, only when it comes to the font styles, I define both, font family and style because the naming of the styles is different in many fonts. So it gives me the oportunity to change style definitions via the search font dialog, which makes it really fast to adjust whole documents.

    Another advantage I see I can prepair a css which uses always the same elements, classes and id (for objects).

     

    What you have with space before and after is solved similar in FrameMaker. I am wondering why Adobe has not adapteed it for InDesign yet.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 11, 2013 3:43 AM   in reply to sPretzel

    I think this is a case of "six of one and half a dozen of the other".

     

    You'll need to make appropriate changes to your workflow to accomodate what you are trying to do. The software isn't designed the way you want it for a reason, because it doesn't make logical sense for a large portion of the users. It would drive most people barmy if this was "normal working conditions" of Indesign.

     

    You've been given more than enough workflow suggestions to accomplish what you need to do - it's time to review your process and find out which one will work best for you.

     

    For me, the right indent tab or a flush space isn't a great idea in my opinion, although it accomplishes what you need, it's far too easy to make an error this way.

     

    I think paragraph styles are the best option and applying them appropriately throughout your document will be the most accurate and efficient way to control your work.

     

     

    If styles are an issue and you need tips on how to utilise styles more efficiently I suggest you get this book http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-InDesign-CS4-Styles-Layouts/dp/032160606X

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 11, 2013 4:22 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    I agree completely what you write.

     

    When I mentioned the shift-tab before, I statet that this is a workaround which I do not recommend.

     

     

    It is also important to look forward. When it comes to epubs and electronic publishing. Spaces without content are NOT found in the resulting epub file and forced returns (I don't like the term soft return, because it is anything else than soft) can be stripped out by command, which makes sense in the most cases. Even so, if you think today you might never export to epub, you might change your opinion and will have to change all your documents too.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 11, 2013 6:30 AM   in reply to sPretzel

    If you get that book I mentioned it will demonstrate how to make Master and Child styles so you only have to edit 1 master style to have the changes reflected in any child styles.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 11, 2013 6:37 AM   in reply to Willi Adelberger

    Willi Adelberger wrote:

     

    ...

     

    What you have with space before and after is solved similar in FrameMaker. I am wondering why Adobe has not adapteed it for InDesign yet.

    The more requests for "inter-paragraph spacing determined by larger of space after/before" like FrameMaker and Ventura, the better the chance of achieving it. Anyone who wants the feature should consider filing a formal feature enhancement request here: Wishform. It probably should be an option, so that InDesign users who have become acccustomed to the sum of space after/before, can continue their accustomed mode. Like the single-line/paragraph composer, and keep-with settings, the reasons for some confusing composition behaviors won't be obvious without inspecting the paragraphs with the style designer. Perhaps it would be helpful to request a feature enhancement for indicators of line/paragraph composer, space after/before, and keep-with settings - something like the color highlights that indicate composition problems like tracking, etc.

     

    HTH

     

     

    Regards,

     

     

    Peter

    _______________________

    Peter Gold

    KnowHow ProServices

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 11, 2013 6:55 AM   in reply to sPretzel

    sPretzel wrote:

     

    Hi. I appreciate everyone's feedback; my original post aimed out finding out how others approach this problem and a variety of views were provided.

     

    Willi, oddly enough, in my case, it appears that creating additional styles would increase housekeeping. For the heading example, I would need several heading styles depending on what precedes the heading (another heading, body text, figure, table, etc.). If I make a change to what comes before the heading, then I need to go back to the heading and change its style too, when the heading has in fact not changed in function or position...only what precedes it has changed! In addition to multiple heading styles for the same heading, I guess InDesign could incorporate a GREP condition within the styles option so that some parameters could be adjusted based on what styles precede or follow, but that seems complex too! This is why in my case, a generic spacing entity style might make more sense. I'll keep looking at whether I can create a sensible workflow with multiple "regular" styles, instead of the spacing entity paragraph style.

    Another FrameMaker-like feature request that would be useful is paragraph-context-formatting. In Structured FrameMaker, which is really *GML - documents that are controlled by a Document Type Definition (DTD), something like an HTML style sheet, it's possible to specify that paragraphs take on properties based on context. For example, in a sequence of list paragraphs, it's possible to define that the first, last, notfirst, and/or notlast, paragraphs take on specified properties, like space before the first list paragraph, space after the last list paragraph, auto-numbering for the first paragraph restarts, and auto-numbering for subsequent paragraphs continues. With this method, only one such "intelligent" context-aware paragraph style is needed for a particular list; the paragraph's position in the list controls its behavior. If a paragraph within the list is moved to or from the first or last or not-first or not-last position, it adjusts according to the defined context rules. InDesign's XML feature can work with a DTD, but in its current state of development, such automatic context-aware formatting isn't available.

     

    Enter your votes here: Wishform.

     

     

    HTH

     

     

    Regards,

     

     

    Peter

    _______________________

    Peter Gold

    KnowHow ProServices

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 11, 2013 7:40 AM   in reply to sPretzel

    Yes they would

     

    But that behaviour can be released by editing a child style altered in the spacing, thus breaking that portion of the relationship - but everything else, font, size, colour, etc would remain - just the link between spacing would be disassociated with the styles.

     

    I'd make a folder with Master Styles and inlcude all the headings in there.

     

    Then I'd make a Sub Heading of the H2 style called H2 child

     

    I'd then break the spacing in H2 child to be what is required.

     

    Then I'd generate sub headings of H2 child and call them H2 grandchildren.

     

     

    This way - H2 will have different spacing.

     

    H2 Child will have different spacing

    H2 GrandChild will have same spacing as H2 Child

     

     

    To adjust H2 spacing you can do this independently without affecting the child styles

     

    and to adjust the H2 Child spacing would adjust the H2 grandchildren

     

    So you really only need to Adjust 1 style to make an overall document change.

     

     

    I'd set Keyboard Shortcuts for H2 styles

     

    CTRL 2 for H2

    CTRL ALT 2 for H2 Child

    CTRL ALT SHIFT 2 for H2 Grandchild

     

    Then CTRL 0 to go back to body style.

     

     

    You could set it up with "Apply Next Style" in the H2 to Apply H2 Child

     

    Then H2 Child to Apply H2 Grandchild

     

    And selecting the text from H2 to H2 Grandchild text you can apply all the paragraph styles in one click using the Apply Next Style Command.

     
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