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Hyphenation in German

Aug 5, 2013 8:00 AM

Tags: #german #hyphenation

I'm underwhelmed at ID's automatic hyphenation choices in German, which though configured to what I believe should work best for the book I'm currently laying out, still appears to make odd choices which seem unsightly even if grammatically acceptable. CS3 I understand had poor hyphenation in German, but this is a newer version, using German 2006 reform rules. What else can be done? Do other native speaking professionals recognise this issue?

 

Thank you for any assistance,

Luca

 
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    Aug 12, 2013 12:22 AM   in reply to luca del carlo

    As I see you haven't tried asking german people in the german forum.

     

    What else can be done to make the hyphenation better? Nothing. Correct it the dictionary and step by step it will become better.

     
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    Aug 12, 2013 3:12 AM   in reply to luca del carlo

    There exists a 3rd party plugin from Duden which offers better hyphenation, better spell check and adds also Austrian German Dictionaries to InDesign.

    But take care German before Reform, German 1996 and German 2006, Swiss German PreReform, Swiss German 1996, Swiss German 2006, Austrian 1980, Austrian 1996 and Austrian 2006 are technically spoken different languages. (But Austrian German 2006 and Germany German 2006 are very close and virtually the same and if you need German-Italy or Hungrian-German or Liechtenstein's German use Austrian type, Belgium-German use Germany-German.)

     
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    Aug 12, 2013 5:37 AM   in reply to luca del carlo

    DUDEN is the most respected source for German grammar and spelling for the German speaking community.

    The plugin adds a Duden paragraph composer, adds to paragraph styles a new section and offers several spelling styles like conservative, progressive, most common, press recommended and others.

    When checking spelling you will get offered several solutions depending on the style you have choosen.

    The plugin is available up to CS6 but the will come out with a version for CC. I think they will have incorporated the changes from this year (but main reforms are still 2006, 1996 and 1904). The plugin checks also grammar and commatas (which are very complicated in German).

     
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    Aug 14, 2013 12:44 AM   in reply to luca del carlo

    I agree that German spelling and hyphenation is much far worse in Adobe's software than in English despite the fact that the same software costs in the German market twice of the US price. This makes a lot of users mad on Adobe but also on most others software companies too. I can remember that Quark Passport costed at its best time 6 to 8 time so much as the US version but with the German OS only Passport would run and Quark had a far worse German spelling than InDesign ever had. So this is an issue but not only with Adobe. Not only with InDesign. Also Acrobat is supporting German very poor to a higher price. When you want to read out loud  on Mac OS X 10.8 in German it either crashes or tells you that the OS does not support German reading and no voice is available (it is not true). Also a lot of manuals have never been translated from Adobe to German, when you go to the help file link you will only find coming soon. (But this could cause a problem, because the laws here are so that you have deliver a German manual to any product sold in Germany.)

     

    So, I want to try to help with the problem:

    Welterfahrung, if I want to have correct hyphenation I would add the hyphenation in the user dictionary, Wel-terfahrung is not good and I would never hyphenate it that way. To avoid any bad hyphenation I would do following steps:

    • Caps and no caps have to be remembered, because substantives, names and personal pronomes in polite styles and verbs with an article or "am" or "zum" preceding have to be capitalized (besides some other complicated rules).
    • Then I woul write the word with hyphenation like "Welt~er~~fah~~~rung". One tilde will give you prefered hyphenation, 2 less preferred but allowed, 3 not preferred but still allowed.

    So would InDesign take the preferred hyphenation.

     

    I agree that Duden is not cheap but if someone has to typeset a lot of German it might be worthy to invest some money here. But to be honest, the plugin adds a lot of linguist functionality to InDesign too. Like paragraph styles where you can define that it is allowed to start the sentence with non-capital leters (like the opening of a letter in German or a bullet list) and also not only a spell and gramatical correction, it describes the rules and takes also care where a footnote reference should be in relation to punctation.

     
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    Aug 14, 2013 4:07 AM   in reply to luca del carlo

    luca del carlo wrote:

     

    Thank you for your input, indeed. How does one add the preferred hyphnation to the Adobe DE dictionary? I do not do a significant amount of work in DE per se, however, the projects individually are of great value and probably will necessitate the purchase of the DUDEN plug-in.

     

    Kind regards,

    Luca

    As you do in any other language. When you Paragraph Style is set correct and you do spell checking and you say add a word you can put in the word as above described into the dictionary of the language of the paragraph but you can also choose all language, which can make sense for proper names.

     

    Additional to above mentioned method to add words with hyphenation: You can set a tilde befor the entry that will not allow the word to be hyphenated.

     
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    Aug 18, 2013 5:16 AM   in reply to luca del carlo
    1. You have to use style anyway. But it works the same, if you work without styles and define the word with the correct language.
    2. Correct hyphenatin would be Raum~er~~fah~~~rung here. Because Raum and Erfahrung are 2 words which are alsways the first place for hyphenation, er = Vorsilbe, so ~~, and ung is a Nachsilbe, but cannot stand allone without a consonant, so it becomes ~~~rung. (Adobes Hyphenation tries the same with ung to rung with er to mer, but here it is wrong.)
     
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    Aug 18, 2013 6:44 AM   in reply to luca del carlo

    I will say that the word has to have the correct language. But there is no reason to work without styles. Working without styles makes never sense, only a bunch more of work. Of course you have to build up the styles in a logical and proper way so that working with styles will make sense too.

     
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    Aug 18, 2013 7:02 AM   in reply to luca del carlo

    What advantage do you see working without styles?

    Creating styles does not cost any additional work, but will reduce the ammount of possible problems in InDesign. There is NEVER a reason to work without style in InDesign. NEVER. I repeat NEVER!!!!!!!!

     

    When you build up a system of styles you can use it in future with small, very small adjustments to adjust whole libraries. Any change in a document made without styles will cause problems.

     

    Styles are not only useful when working with different languages, they are very important for all text and form related issues.

     
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    Aug 18, 2013 7:22 AM   in reply to luca del carlo

    Sorry, I am tired to discuss basics with you. You should start to learn InDesign first before you make your claims about the program. Styles are important and someone who is working without styles should use a basic text editor or even write with a pen on paper but not use high professionell software like InDesign or Quark Xpress.

     
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    Aug 18, 2013 7:30 AM   in reply to luca del carlo

    The hyphenation is as it is. You can write Adobe a bug report. But to handle the problem in an easy way needs to use styles and user ditionary. Manually changing anything without styles doubles amount of work.

     
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    Aug 18, 2013 9:01 AM   in reply to luca del carlo

    I know I'm way late to this conversation, but there has been an insistence that the only way to do this is with styles. Not true.  Here is a step-by-step in laborious detail of how to create the proper hyphenation for any language word.

     

     

    Here is some text with the word "Berliner" hyphenated. I'm going to pretend I know German and I know this is not the preferred way to hyphenate the word. (Remember, we're pretending. I have no idea if what I'm doing is correct linguistically.)

     

     

    bad berliner.png

     

     

    I don't want the word hyphenated after the "Ber." I want it hyphenated after the "li."

     

     

    So, I go to Edit > Spelling > User Dictionary.

     

     

    User Dictionary.png

     

    This opens the User Dictionary dialog box.

     

     

    User Dictionary db.png

     

     

    Now I want to edit the User Dictionary. There is a choice, at the top of the dialog box, to choose User Dictionary or the name of the document.

     

     

    where to save hyphenation.png

     

     

    Don't choose the document, unless you're working on a document with some bizarre hyphenation that only Otto von Bismarck would use.

     

     

    Next, you want to choose what language this word will be hyphenated for.

     

     

     

    Choosing German.png

     

     

    Use the language menu in the dialog box. I've chosen German Reform 2006 because I have no idea what the others would be used for and I want to be modern.

     

     

     

    Next, I type in "Berliner," the word that needs custom hyphenation.

     

     

    typing in Berliner.png

     

     

    It comes in with no hyphenation. But I click the Hyphenate button.

     

     

    Click hyhenation.png

     

     

    Notice the two tildes (~~) are inserted in the word. That's the default hyphenation for that word. But I want something different. So I click between the "li" and the "ner" and type in one tilde (~).

     

     

    New hyphenation.png

     

     

    Now, here are the rules.

     

     

    If there is one tilde (~), that is the most preferred hyphenation and InDesign will always try to do it.

     

     

    If there are two tildes (~~), InDesign will try for that if there is no way to do one tilde (~).

     

     

    If there are three tildes (~~~), InDesign will try for that if there is no way to do the other two choices.

     

     

    I click the Add button. This adds the word to the User Dictionary for that language.

     

     

    New hyphenation.png

     

     

    The word shows up in the list. If you have lots of words, they will be listed.

     

     

    Click the Done button.

     

     

    Berliner as English.png

     

     

    Back in the document, Berliner is still hyphenated incorrectly. That's because the language for that word is still English.

     

     

    So I select the word.

     

     

    Now, here's where I could apply a character style that has the language set to German. Or a paragraph style with German as the language. But I'm lazy and don't want to use styles. (Even though I'm giving a webinar in November on getting more productive with styles.)

     

    So I go to the language menu in the Control panel and choose German Reform 2006 because that's the German I'm using.

     

     

    Choosing German for word.png

     

     

    Now, when I look at the word in the text, it is hyphenated at the one tilde (~) spot. Because that is the preferred hyphenation.

     

     

    Final hyphenation.png

     

    OK? Is that step-by-step enough?

     

    BTW, in your example of "Raum~~er~~fah~~rung" you might want to insert one tilde (~) between the "er" and the "fah" if you wanted InDesign to try to hyphenate there and then choose the other places as backups. That would be "Raum~~er~fah~~rung."

     
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    Aug 18, 2013 9:37 AM   in reply to Sandee Cohen

    Sandee, that is exactly what I wrote before. I wrote that it works without styles. Also the steps you described. But working with correct styles would simplify these steps. With styles set up you get the correct user dictionary and you have applied the correct language. Less steps less possibities to get errors and yes, a more automatic way to do things.

     
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    Aug 18, 2013 9:41 AM   in reply to Willi Adelberger

    It's not totally true.

     

    If your language is set on a paragraph level, then yes, styles are a time saver.

     

    But if you have an English document, with only a few words inserted into paragraphs, there is no difference between applying the character style or changing the language.

    --

    Sandee Cohen

    Computer Graphics Trainer

     
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    Aug 18, 2013 11:53 AM   in reply to vectorbabe

    I see it also as time saver with the use of Character Styles, let tell you some example:

    1. I set up a lot of documents which had to be German 1996 or 1904 (because some German states did not accept the Reform 1996), later when 2006 became law, so it was easy to switch all text from the old versions to the moderate Reform of Vienna 2006. (Old Reform was the reform of Prague 1904, new reforms are those of Vienna.) Without a style I had to do a lot of find and replace.

    2. When I set up a book with a lot of foreign words I change during typesetting the color of other languages in the Character Styles. This helps a lot to identify if the words are set up correctly! And this reduces the problem to have accidentally the wrong language selected. It helps also to identify if the preceding and following punctuations are included or not, which can cause a different microtypography.

    3. And yes, it is somehow more to make an error in selecting the correct language in InDesign if you use the pull down menu. It is very easy to select the wrong language, scroll down the long list of language wastes more time than clicking on one predefined entry in the character panel. You did not even see which form of German you have selected in the pull down menu. Up to InDesign CS5.5 you saw in the menu only "Deutsch Recht…", only if you clicked on the menu you saw if you have selcted Deusch Rechtschreibrefom 1996 or Deutsch Rechtschreibreform 2006 or worse Deutsch Schweiz Alte Rechtschreibung, Deutsch Schweiz Rechtschreibreform 1996, Deutsch Schweiz Rechtschreibreform 2006 (you saw only "Deutsch Schweiz…") With CS6 Adobe has renamed the entry to Deutsch 1996 Rechtschreibreform, and so on. So it is from an ergonomic standpoint much easier to work with character styles.

    4. Another problem is in combination with different languages you might need a different font which will support that language, so you might not only change the language but also the font, with a character style it is an one click action.

     

    With the use of languages on a paragraph level you need not only to change the language, you will have to change the tracking and increase hyphenation. (German uses normally more space than other languages, if text is typeset in several languages there is often the need to use the same amount of space for each language). In English you might avoid to hyphenate capitalized words because only names, headlines and first words of a sentence are capitalized, in German every substantive and every substantiated verb is capitalized. German has also a tradition of long word combinations which makes it very difficult to avoid hyphenation.So you will need to change the hyphenation rules in combination with the change of language. So I see the only way to work correctly and with reducing errors to work with styles.

     
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    Aug 18, 2013 1:41 PM   in reply to Willi Adelberger

    Will,  There are lots of reasons to use styles. I was just reacting to statements like:

     

    Styles are important and someone who is working without styles should use a basic text editor or even write with a pen on paper but not use high professionell software like InDesign or Quark Xpress.

     

    But to handle the problem in an easy way needs to use styles and user ditionary. Manually changing anything without styles doubles amount of work.

     

    What happened in the thread was the OP was asking, (at times begging) to be shown how to do it without styles. But everyone insisted he had to do it with styles, although no one asked the format of the paragraphs and should it be paragraph or character styles.

     

    And the OP had no interest in changing a font, tracking, selecting the "wrong" language, etc.

     

    So, I just wrote out the answer. And I did mention that styles would make you more productive.

     

    But sometimes it's important to show the most simple steps before add styles, etc.

     
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    Aug 18, 2013 5:51 PM   in reply to luca del carlo

    As soon as I get the details, I'll post it in this thread.

     
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