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CharleyWH
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Stop Marker Alternative for Blu Ray?

Aug 28, 2013 2:52 PM

Newby to Prem elements 11 and processing HD camcorder footage, but learning fast!!

 

Have just found out that Stop Markers don't work on Blu Ray (only DVD!!!) and seen it written in Adobe documentation.

 

So, in my former Mini DV tape world, used Prem 6.5 to produce .avi files of 1) holiday video (for example) and 2) a slide show of holiday photos. Then used a separate authoring programme (eg Nero) to create menus etc. for the movie and photos output to a single DVD.

 

Now, with my new Panasonic 80p HD camcorder hoped to use Prem Elements 11 to do all of this. Plan was to create video followed by photo slide show on same timeline with a stop marker to separate them, then could be burned to Blu ray so there would be 2 separate items on the final disc. Alas not possible it would appear!

 

I can't see any way of authoring 2 different timelines in PE11 and burning with menus to 1 disc. So, is the only way of doing this, to produce 2 separate projects (video and slide show), save as some sort of HD files (what's best option?) Then use in another Blu Ray authoring programme to produce the final disc (any suggestions which??)

 

Seems a lot of extra work just because the stop markers don't work........or is there another way of doing this??

 

Thanks for any suggestions!

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 28, 2013 3:42 PM   in reply to CharleyWH

    CharleyWH

     

    I will think about this some more, but the first approach to this might be:

     

    If you have multiple movies, have thumbnails for them on the main menu page from where they can be accessed. And, then at the head of each movie have a main menu marker.

     

    I guess you know already that muliple movies cannot have its own scene menu page. But with some stragetic planning the same effect might be worked out with the scene marker situation if you have some flexibility built into your workflow scheme.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 29, 2013 8:10 AM   in reply to CharleyWH

    CharleyWH

     

    True, without the stop marker, the viewer could start with whichever movie wanted but would have to watch the movie selected PLUS whichever movie followed in the Timeline, unless the viewer opted to watch the last movie in the Timeline.

     

    Each movie cannot have it own scene selection page.

     

    As you know, the scenes in the scene selection page link back to the scene markers placed on the Timeline. The scene menu page sees the scene markers sequentially placed. So, if you have

    Timeline scene markers a, b, c, d, e, f

    Two movies: movie 1 with scene markers a, b, c and movie 2 with scene markers d, e, f

    Scene Menu designed for 4 buttons

     

    Then Scene Menu page 1 would have a, b, c, d and Scene Menu page 2 would have e, f.

    As I see it in this particular mini example, the only way to force the "movie with its own scene page" is to restrict each movie to 4 scene markers in the series, so that

    Movie 1 has scene markers a, b, c, d

    Movie 2 has scene markers e, f  (or plus, but no more than g, h)

     

    There are ways to customize the disc menus that came with the program with regards to placing thumbnails on the main menu page, etc.

     

    But, if you do not want to get involved in workarounds for what can be worked around, then you might have to consider exporting your Premiere Elements Timeline to a file that can be imported into a Blu-ray authoring program that does have the disc menu features that you require, starting with stop marker equivalents. From what I have been told, a program such as Encore should be able to handle the situation.

     

    If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask. If you need any assistance deciding on a suitable export of your Premiere Elements Timeline to the required file, please let us know. I am thinking that you should be looking at a .mts or .mp4 file with frame size 1920 x 1080.

     

    Thanks.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 30, 2013 10:48 AM   in reply to CharleyWH

    CharleyWH

     

    Given that you have 1920 x 1080 @ 60 progressive frames per second at a bitrate of 28 Mbps.

     

    If that source gets burned to Blu-ray disc format on Blu-ray disc in Premiere Elements 11, you will get on that Blu-ray disc 1920 x 1080 @ 25 interlaced frames per second with the available preset = H.264 1920 x 1080i PAL Dolby (1920 x 1080 @ 25 interlaced frames per second. The bitrate for that process has a max of about 20 t0 24 Mbps depending "Fit Content to Available Space" option. But remember that the process is using a variable bitrate..

     

    If that source gets burned to AVCHD format on DVD disc in Premiere Elements 11, you will get 1920 x 1080 @ 25 interlaced frames per second. The bitrate for that process has a max of about 15 Mbps. Again, remember that the process is using a variable bitrate.

     

    The all is well and good and what can be done in Premiere Elements with the burn to for Blu-ray and AVCHD DVD, but then comes the matter of wanting to take the Timeline into a suitable format for use in a 3rd party software for menus and export. AVCHD DVD will not play back on a DVD player. You need a Blu-ray player and even all Blu-ray players do not support AVCHD DVD. We can go into computer playerback, such as with CyberLink PowerDVD products or Media Classic Player HC for AVCHD DVD playback.

     

    Remember, no matter what your source, you cannot customize those burn to presets. They are what they are.

     

    Please check out the following online attempt to show difference with Blu-ray vs AVCHD

    http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/325045-AVCHD-vs-Blu-ray

     

    Since you wrote

    Anyway, I exported 2 test movies from PE11: one in .M2TS AVCHD 80i/25fps/28mbps and the other as .MP4 80p/50fps/28mbps.

    do we need to go into export settings for Publish+Share/Computer/AVCHD? One of the choices there is .m2t not .m2ts.

     

    As for

    The final thing to mention is that I noticed DVD Architect produced a slight flicker particularly on lighter areas on it's discs which is not present on Blu Rays produced directly by PE11. I used the default output settings in DVD Architect which were 1920 x 80 25i. I'm in the UK (PAL), so would it be worth trying the 24p setting, or is there likely to be another cause?

    Is there any anti-flicker option in the DVD Architect program? I have never used that so I am not sure what that is all about. Whatever your choice of output for that program, just make sure the your Blu-ray player supports it.

     

    Please review and then we can decide what next if necessary.

     

    Thanks.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 30, 2013 6:35 PM   in reply to CharleyWH

    Charley,

     

    Regarding the BD (Blu-ray Disc) formats, this is a list of those available to Adobe Encore (a full-featured authoring app, that was only available with PrPro, from CS 3 through CS 6): http://forums.adobe.com/thread/421178?tstart=0

     

    Now, you might ask why I offered that link, as it is for Encore, and not PrE. The reason is that both Encore and the authoring modules in PrE are based on, and use the Sonic AuthorCore modules. Now, with Encore, there are more of those modules used, and also much more control, yet both programs are based on most of the same modules.

     

    BD's are bound by the specifications that Sony came up with, when they won the battle with the HD-DVD format. However, just as with the DVD-Video specifications, there are rules, that are written into those specifications. Authoring programs, whether for DVD-Video, or BD, should adhere 100% to the two specifications - or issues will develop. Adobe is very strict, in all of their programs, in that all output MUST be 100% compatible with the set standards, and specifications - whether it's for authoring a DVD-Video, a BD, or Photoshop doing a Save_As PNG.

     

    Hope that helps.

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 30, 2013 7:24 PM   in reply to CharleyWH

    CharleyWH

     

    Rather than compare to a non Elements program that you do not have, same modules are not, let me give you an example specific for Premiere Elements.

     

    Some preface first...what I referred to above were the export settings not the exact values that you would get for Blu-ray disc format on Blu-ray disc produced..

     

    I am using Premiere Elements 11 Windows 7 64 bit

    Project preset

    DSLR

    1080p

    DSLR 1080p30 @ 29.97

     

    The Timeline content is an AVCHD.mov file about 1 second in duration. It is 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97 progressive frames per second. The MediaInfo bitrate information for it says Bitrate = 45.8 Mbps. File size = 166 MB

     

    I used Publish+Share/Disc/Blu-ray with preset = H.264 1920 x 1080 NTSC Dolby for the burn to Blu-ray disc (BD-RE 25 GB 2X).

    a. If I have a check mark next to "Fit Content to Available Space", the Space Required = 102.00 MB with a Bitrate = 24.00 Mbps for the burn to set. But, I get the "Adobe Media Encoder Property Data Invalid" error under these circumstances. So I do not use this choice.

    b. Instead, I leave the "Fit Content to Avaialble Space" without the check mark. Now the Space Required = 86.00 MB and Bitrate = 20.19 Mbps for the burn to set. No error message.

    See my blog post dealing with this type of situation

    http://www.atr935.blogspot.com/2013/05/pe11-blu-ray-burn-dialog-fit-co ntent-to.html.

     

    When I open the Blu-ray disc that was created, go to the BDMV Folder, then to the STREAM Folder in the BDMV Folder, and, in the STREAM folder look at the properties of the video (.00000.m2ts) with MediaInfo, the properties readout says:

     

    1920 x 1080 @ 29.97 interlaced frames per second. The bitrate information gives

    Bitrate = Variable

    Bitrate = 20.1 Mbps

    Maximum bitrate = 21.0 Mbps.

    File Size = 74.6 MB

    Duration = about 1 second

     

    At playback on the computer player I do not detect deterioration from the source to video stream found in the Blu-ray BDMV Folder/STREAM FOLDER.

     

    Please disregard the next two links if you have been there and know all that already. They are posted just in case...

     

    The following is a generic article on the concept of Variable Bitrate.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_bitrate

     

    Included in this mix are the Blu-ray standards established for the formats by other than Adobe.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

     

    Please check out the above and then we can discuss the matter further.

     

    Thanks for the follow up.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 30, 2013 9:31 PM   in reply to A.T. Romano

    ATR,

     

    Whether one is using PrE, or another Adobe authoring app, it boils down to the implementation of the segments of the BD spec., offered by the Sonic AuthorCore modules in the actual application.

     

    Even in Adobe Encore, there are aspects of the BD-specs, that are not available. Unless one is using Sonci Scenarist HD, with all of the modules (about US $ 150,000, plus the Sony licensing per title), one is limited to what they have.

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 30, 2013 9:57 PM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Hunt,

     

    Just wanted CharleyWH to see some actual values in Premiere Elements example.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 31, 2013 3:02 PM   in reply to CharleyWH

    CharleyWH

     

    I appreciate your knowledge and experience, but right now I just want to find a formula that will enable me to successfully convert my camcorder footage into  discs via editing and authoring

     

    If your "footage into discs via editing and authoring" in Premiere Elements, I see no problem. The route is clear cut. But if you cannot accept the Stop Marker situation, other considerations and need for exploration and experimentation on how to export the Premiere Elements Timeline to a file acceptable to the 3rd party software that is going to be doing menus and authoring to Blu-ray.

     

     

    The Premiere Elements 11 burn to blu-ray with no detours outside for menus - ingredients should be:

     

    a. Project preset to match the properties of your source media...if your source is 1080p50 (1920 x 1080 @ 50 progressive frames per second), then make sure that you or the project is setting the project preset for

    PAL

    AVCHD

    AVCHD 1080p50

    if the program does not set it for that after you drag your 1080p50 to the Expert view Timeline for the first time, then you set the project preset yourself manually before you import the 1080p50 with your Add Media Files and Folders. See Edit Menu/Project Settings/General and its reading for Editing Mode/Timebase/Frame Size. If you have to set the project preset yourself manually, then, before you import your video, File Menu/New/Project and make sure that you have a check mark next to Force Select Project Setting on this Project before you exit the new project dialog. Then import your video via Add Media/Files and Folder/Project Assets from where you drag the video to the Expert workspace Timeline.

     

    b. There is not very much to talk about in the way of burn to disc...use a good brand Blu-ray, then Publish+Share/Disc/Blu-ray. There is nothing for you to do then but hit the Burn button after you set the preset for 1920 x 1080 @ 25 interlaced frames per second.

     

    That is it.

     

    I will mention this anyway even though it does not apply to anything that you have written so far....if you run into any 1440 x 1080 HD anamorphic 16:9 footage from any one of your cameras, import with a project preset that agrees with those video properties. But, when you export, set for the 1920 x 1080. Both will give you the 1920 x 1080 display after encoding, but the 1920 x 1080 does not have/need a 16:9 flag for video stretching that the player may have problems recognizing.

     

    An optimized computer, defragmented and such and with enough resources to handle the task is part of the formula. The ingredient that needs to be in the class of "season to taste" is the matter of sizing of photos going into this project. Do we need to take on that subject if your Timeline is exclusively video?

     

    Hope that helps. Any questions or clarification, please let us know.

     

    As for your detour outside Premiere Elements for menus and Blu-ray authoring, you are restricted by the import supported formats of the 3rd party software. Already you say that your candidate for the job does not support .mp4, seems to be only MPEG2 (not sure since I do not use that program). I suspect that you would take a quality hit going this route in the name of disc menus preferences. Please advise if this is where your thinking is now.

     

    Thanks.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 31, 2013 3:38 PM   in reply to CharleyWH

    CharleyWH

     

    Thanks for the opportunity to help.

     

    That was indeed good news about the Windows 7 32 bit going to Windows 7 64 bit. This way your Premiere Elements 11 is a 64 bit, not 32 bit, application and can take full advantage of the 64 bit system resources which now included 8 GB installed RAM. That translates into getting those larger projects taken to a successful outcome more often than with the 32 bit.

     

    I do not have a blu-ray player for the TV. But, my Premiere Elements Blu-ray disc format on Blu-ray disc display "awesome" with the computer players of CyberLink PowerDVD, VLC, and Media Player Classic. (My computer for that work has been Windows 7 64 bit with 8 GB RAM installed and about 1 TB hard drive space.)

     

    Looking forward to getting the best possible for you.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 1, 2013 5:23 PM   in reply to CharleyWH

    CharleyWH

     

    You wrote

    Pub. & Share/ Computer/ AVCHD/ M2T-H264 1920 x 1080i 25. Advanced shows VBR i pass, Target 25, Max 30. and this appears to be fixed.

    If your 3rd party software that will be doing the menus and burn to Blu-ray supports that import, let us judge the quality of the end results from the 3rd party software. But, under the Premiere Elements Advanced Button/Video Tab of your export route, those export settings are not necessarily "fixed". You could change the Bitrate Encoding from VBR, 1 Pass to VBR, 2 Pass. Although the Target Bitrate is found at 25 Mbps and Maximum Bitrate is found at 30 Mbps, you can adjust them further. The range for the Target Bitrate and Maxiumun Bitrate is 0.19 to 35 Mbps when you have Profile = High and Level = 4.1. But I would leave the defaults for now until you see what you are up against in the 3rd party software. Are you still finding that the 3rd party software does not accept AVCHD.mp4?

     

    The recommendations on pixel dimensions for photos going into the HD project in Premiere Elements 11 on Windows 7 or 8 64 bit is at times controverial. The party line for photo pixel dimensions for these projects has always been not to exceed 1000 x 750 for SD and 2000 x 1500 for HD (I use a variant of the latter, 2200 x 1238). However, some under these circumstances bring into the project photos grossly oversized for the project and let Premiere Elements 11 take care of the "Default Scale to Frame Size" (1920 x 1080) or scaling in the monitor while others trying this same approach end up with failure. The program does not stop you from importing these huge sizes like it would have in earlier versions of the program. But you take the consequences depending on your computer resources and the number of oversized photos with which you are dealing. In view of this, define your own limits and go with what works for you. The photos are going to be reduced to the standard of the preset, either by you or the program.

     

    Success with your projects. We will be looking forward to further developments.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 2, 2013 3:40 PM   in reply to CharleyWH

    CharleyWH

     

    Sounding better and better.

     

    I went online and found this at the Sony web site on "Import Supported Formats"

    https://www.custcenter.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/497/kw/Import%20Sup port%20Formats/session/L3RpbWUvMTM3ODE2MTAwNy9zaWQvZmVQc2lsemw%3D

    I think you have a winner with your Premiere Elements MPEG2 with increased bitrate export as the source

    for the 3rd party software to be used for the menus and export to Blu-ray job.

     

    Have a great holiday with family. We will be looking forward to your stop marker, menus, and burn to Blu-ray results.

    But, your better half is very right. Now is time to think holiday.

     

    Safe travel.

     

    ATR

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 2, 2013 7:22 PM   in reply to CharleyWH

    Charlie,

     

    It boils down to the CODEC used in the format. For more background on CODEC's, though not specifically the ones used in MPEG-2 and MPEG-4, see this FAQ Entry: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/546811?tstart=0

     

    Good luck,

     

    Hunt

     
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