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Tom Birk
Currently Being Moderated

Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents

Sep 18, 2013 10:02 AM

Tags: #color #indesign #profiles #management #icc

Does anyone know how to retain a file's original color space when pasting into an ID document?

 

Such as when a file is untagged CMYK or RGB and when a file is tagged CMYK or RGB, is there a way to retain this information?

 

Best case scenario, I've observed that any untagged file will assume (or be tagged as) the current working space. In my case, sRGB and SWOP.

 

I've tried many CSF alterations, just to cover my bases, and no expected results. I can make it so no profiles are in the files and a number of other unexpected results...but not what I presume should be expected.

 

Can anyone solve this?

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 18, 2013 12:45 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    How, exactly, do you expect ID to know the original color space if there is no tag?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 18, 2013 1:12 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    ID has to put the numbers into SOME space in order to render. If none is specified, what choice is there other than the working space?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 18, 2013 2:07 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    Photoshop also presumes untagged files are in the current working space.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 18, 2013 2:56 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    ID doesn't embed a profile in the image, either. I Believe it does assign a profile during export, but that's not the same as tagging it in the ID file itself. If you assign a new profile to the document the untagged image will be reinterpreted as being in the new assigned space.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 18, 2013 2:57 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    This is a lot more Rob Day's are than mine. Perhaps he'll weigh in.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Oct 16, 2007
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    Sep 18, 2013 6:01 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    Photoshop displays an untagged file in the preset working space, but it doesn't automatically embed that profile. Instead, tagging it or not is up to the user.

    That's true when you open an existing document, but a better analogy would be what happens when you paste one PS document into another PS document—you can't open an image in ID it has to be placed or pasted inside of a document.

     

    In Photoshop if you paste pixels from an untagged image into an image tagged with a profile different than the current Color Setting's Working Space, the pasted pixels' appearance changes and are assigned the target image's embedded profile.

     

    Same thing happens in ID, all untagged images are assigned the ID doc's profile, and if there's no document assignment the current Working Space is used. So, if you place an untagged CMYK image into a document with an assignment of Japan Color Coated and then change the assignment to US Newsprint you'll see the image preview change accordingly.

     

    As with Photshop you are not forced to embed a document profile in InDesign. If you set your Color Setting's CMYK Color Management policy to Off, no CMYK profile will be assigned to the document and  the current CMYK Working Space will color manage native CMYK color and untagged images.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 23, 2013 11:51 AM   in reply to Tom Birk

    Of course, asking clients to be sure they embed profiles in their images would also be a good idea....

     

    Failure to embed profiles, in my opinion, is prima facie evidence that someone doesn't really care about the color.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Sep 23, 2013 12:24 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    With CM off, it does what's expected.

    I'm not seeing any difference with the CMS Off setting—untagged images still show in the Links panel as Document CMYK. The only difference with CMS Off is you don't know what the document's CMYK profile is because Color Settings is left blank. But there has to be an assumed space, in order to display CMYK color in your monitor's RGB space there needs to be a CMYK profile to make the conversion.

     

    At that point, if anything "looks" wrong, they have to dig through client's submitted files to inspect actual color space origins. For instance, they may find an untagged original looke best in and was probably created in AdobeRGB.

     

    If the image really is untagged opening will do no good because there's no way of telling what the original source was. It will simply get displayed via the current Working Space profile which could be anything. ID works the same way, except the assumed profile is the document assignment first, then the working space if there's no assignment.

     

    Also, you don't need to open image files to assign a profile to an untagged image, that can be done by selecting the image and choosing  Object>Image Color Settings...>Profile

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Sep 23, 2013 12:52 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

     

    Besides, just got a PS3 PDF tagged with our custom CMYK, but when placed into ID, it got reassigned to SWOP! WTF!    all settings were to preserve embedded profiles and ID used was CS6. However, if we first saved the PS3 PDF as a tiff and then placed it into ID, our custom CMYK was retained.

     

    PDF profiles don't show in ID (Links or Info) because there can be multiple profiles inside of a PDF. Where are you seeing the the PDF is assigned SWOP?

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Sep 23, 2013 2:11 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    I've never seen the Info panel display the profile for a PDF, which makes sense because a PDF could have any number of objects with different profiles, color spaces, and resolutions (which one should be displayed?). Here's what I get with a Photoshop PDF:

     

    Screen Shot 2013-09-23 at 4.43.44 PM.png

    because ID doesn't want a PDF placed...or something like that?

     

    There's no problem placing PDF's and ID will honor their profiles if the document's policy is preserve. It doesn't recognize Output Intents so maybe you are saving as PDF/X-1a?

     

     

    so ID is defaulting to SWOP (our working space in color settings)

     

    ID looks to the document assignment first, so if the assignment (Edit>Assign Profiles) is SWOP, it will use SWOP no matter what the current Color Setting's Working Space is. If there's no assignment then it falls back to the Working Space.

     

    Like policies the document profile is assigned when the doc is created and it would be up to you to change it from Assign or Convert to Profiles if needed—changing the Color Setting's Working Space has no effect on existing documents unless its policy was set to Off.

     

    Again there has to be a source profile for there to be color conversions—including the conversion to monitor RGB for display. It's completely logical to make the assumed  source profile of untagged CMYK files Document CMYK.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 23, 2013 3:31 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    Actually, ID presumes the grayscale numbers are a CMYK object in the current CMYK space, and the CMY channels are all 0.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Sep 23, 2013 3:57 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    example, Info for ICC Profile is available for each object placed.

    Not PDFs or AI, you can see in my capture the profile is blank. That doesn't mean there are not profiles assigned, ID just can't tell you what they are. Images aren't a problem because there can only be one profile assigned. Also,you can't change the profile via Object>Image Settings... the way you can with an image.

     

    can't ID honor untagged objects by keeping them untagged instead of tagging them with the working space icc profiles?

     

    How would they be displayed? There needs to be a source CMYK profile for the RGB display conversion.

     

    technically, ID doesn't know what grayscale is and just leaves it alone.

     

    In addition to Peter's point, ID displays grayscales two different ways. With Overprint or Sep Preview turned on, the display is via the document CMYK profile, so a 50% gray value would display the same as 0|0|0|50 CMYK and output unchanged. When Overprint is off the display is sGray (2.1 gamma), which is useful if you are designing for screen.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Sep 24, 2013 2:29 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    Retread my post. I never said PDFs can't have embedded profiles. The Info panel can't tell you what they are because each object on a PDF page could be assigned a different profile. A PDF/x-4 could have 10 CMYK images each with a different profile. If you want to check a PDFs profiles you have to do it from Acrobat Pro.

     

    There are no lookup tables in the CM system, the conversions are from the source space to Lab (which is device independent and has no profile) to the destination profile. So in PS the preview of an untagged grayscale is from the Working Gray space>Lab> Monitor RGB.

     

    ID uses the CMYK profile because on a CMYK press there are not 2 black plates, so you don't want 2 different profiles managing the black plate preview. You can also use a CMYK profile as the Gray space in Photoshop.

     

    You can't disable the CM system. Untagged images are still color managed-- there has to be source.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Sep 24, 2013 5:24 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    PDFs are not image files. Place and select a PDF and look at your Info panel.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Sep 24, 2013 5:46 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    With CS6 there is the option to convert to a grayscale space on Export, but the better workflow is to use the InDesign document CMYK profile as the gray profile in Photoshop, then output the black plate for the 1 color side. When you do that the grayscale preview will match in PS and ID.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Sep 28, 2013 2:04 PM   in reply to Tom Birk

    I was traveling last week and couldn't post screen captures. There are 2 slight downsides to ID not having a grayscale space which can be overcome via Color Settings.

     

    First, the preview of a grayscale in the layout might not match the Photoshop preview of the same grayscale, and secondly you can't force a grayscale-to-grayscale conversion of a single image on Export (you can force CMYK-to-CMYK or RGB-to-RGB).

     

    So you could set Photoshop's Color Settings to something like this:

     

    Screen Shot 2013-09-28 at 4.18.28 PM.png

     

     

    The above would work if you are preparing a layout for a press running to the Fogra39 profile. Any grayscale created with this color setting would get the Black Ink Fogra39 profile assigned. When you place the grayscale in the layout the  profile gets ignored, but the ID document has the same CMYK profile assigned so the preview will be the same when Overprint's turned on. On export you don't want or get any number conversions because the grayscale has been prepared for Fogra and you are exporting to Fogra.

     

    If someone provides a grayscale with the default 20% Dot Gain  (or any other profile) assigned, you can open it in Photoshop and there will be an automatic conversion from the assigned profile to Fogra because the Gray Policy is set to Convert to Working Gray.

     
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