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Keyboard shortcut to duplicate seq-not intuitive

Feb 22, 2014 5:12 PM

I find the keyboard shortcut for duplicating seqs in PPro very odd. On a Mac...most apps use the common shortcut of  - cmd-"D". PPro use of  shft-cmd- \ is a bit odd.

 

Yes I know I can remap but it seems common software global key commands would be the default.  Isn't cmd-"D" true in AE?...not sure.

 

My last comment while in this mode...I feel keyboard shortcuts should be designed for one hand usage with out tremendous acrobatics. Thus allowing the other hand to be mostly on the mouse.

 

All Adobe products really should share more of  the same common keyboard shortcuts.

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 22, 2014 6:11 PM   in reply to philc452

    There is simply just not enough keys on a keyboard to accomodate every short cut key ...let alone one handed.

     

    BTW - Windows keyboard  is much less acrobatic than Mac

     

    All Adobe products really should share more of  the same common keyboard shortcuts.

     

    The Adobe Products do so many varied things..that would be impossible.

     
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    Feb 23, 2014 11:15 AM   in reply to philc452

    All Adobe products really should share more of  the same common keyboard shortcuts.

     

    I actually agree with that.  While not every shortcut can be duplicated in every program, there are some very basic commands that should be consistent between programs.

     

    Navigation, for instance.  Every Adobe program that works with video should be using the Premiere Pro shortcuts for navigation - Next Edit, Previous Edit, Go to In, Go to Out, etc.  The mouse timeline scroll should behave in AE, Prelude, SG and PS as it does in PP.  Timeline zoom should have the same shortcuts in those programs as in PP.  Panel selection should be the same from program to program.

     

    These basic functions that do exist in each of the programs should all be using the same shortcuts.  It sure would go a long way towards the 'integration' Adobe wants to be known for.

     
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    Feb 23, 2014 11:25 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    I agree with Jim ... and because of the confusing variety I've not really used the keyboard shorts all that much. Finally realizing I should pick those like Jim mentions and sit down and re-map and re-train. But then ... I hate doing techy set-up things like re-mapping shorts. Dang dumb of me ... sigh.

     

    Neil

     
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    Feb 24, 2014 12:15 AM   in reply to R. Neil Haugen

    If one was to take a look at all the KBD shortcuts in AEFX then all those in Premiere and then considered how one would make them common.

     

    Forgeddaboutit !

     

    The two "video" apps are so different in GUI., function and navigation that it it hard to even find common ground.

     

     

    General Menu Items like Save an Oen etc are common and so are some Tool shortcuts.

    eg V for Selection , H for Hand.

     
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    Feb 24, 2014 9:54 AM   in reply to shooternz

    It could be done for the basics.  AE users will likely have to retrain themselves on several shortcuts, but I do feel that PP is the hub of the video suite, and it's shortcuts should be the ones to carry over to all the other video-enabled programs.

     
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    Feb 24, 2014 11:31 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    What do you consider  are the "basics"?

     

    I am sure AEFX specialists (Compositors and FX guys) will disagree with...

    but I do feel that PP is the hub of the video suite, and it's shortcuts should be the ones to carry over to all the other video-enabled programs.

     

    The thing that is common across all applications is...the Mouse.

     

    How  many people actually use shortcuts for more actions than the mouse?

     

    The Mouse can do anything and everything.

     
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    Feb 24, 2014 11:57 AM   in reply to shooternz

    What do you consider  are the "basics"?

     

    Well, navigation for one.  Moving to the next frame in the sequence is the right arrow in PP.  In AE the right arrow moves the clip's position within the frame, and the CTRL+ARROW advances the frame.  That should be reversed in AE so the same right arrow advances the frame and the CTRL modifier moves it's position.

     

    In PP, the \ key zooms out to see the entire sequence duration.  In AE it switches focus between panels, but should do the same as it does in PP, with the current PP shortcuts for panel highlight carried over to AE.

     

    In PP, the mouse wheel scrolls the timeline, in AE it does nothing.  That should be carried over.

     

    In PP, scrolling the mouse wheel while hovered over the Zoom bar changes the zoom level.  In AE it also does nothing and should be carried over.

     

    Basic things like that should be consistent in all Adobe programs that handle video.

     
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    Feb 24, 2014 2:08 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Jim,

     

    So TOTALLY with you on this one. I've a trackwheel on the right side, keyboard in the middle, and Intuos3 pen-tab to the left. I work pretty much by keyboard in Lightroom, but haven't really got there in the video stuff 'cause it's so confusing, and you are right, BASIC navigational things are different. In just trying to get stuff done I haven't taken the time to learn multiple competing keyboard cuts for things that would be much quicker if done that way.

     

    After getting the basic jkl stuff ... I've really not bothered. It's so much slower than it could be. Unless I wanted to put several hours into mastering (again) competing navigational cuts, let alone other things. OR ... completely go through and re-map what I can, which it's probably time to do anyway.

     

    Neil

     
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    Feb 24, 2014 9:39 PM   in reply to philc452

    You guys should bounce this notion across into the AEFX Forum.

     

    I dare you to do it.

     
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    Feb 25, 2014 8:25 AM   in reply to shooternz

    I can see Adobe providing a shortcut preset for the current set of AE shortcuts, much like PP has the FCP and Avid presets.  That way people who primarily use AE and have been doing so for years aren't left out in the cold, but those who do use the full suite, who are taking advantage of the integration that Adobe wants to be known for can have the proper integration experience by default that just makes life easier.

     
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    Feb 25, 2014 9:45 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    JIm,

     

    LOVE your suggestion for keyboard presets from Adobe for the 'suite' that would make the navigational and similar actions uniform throughout the varios programs.

     

    Shooter's comment about changing for the Ae dudes is true for that sub-set of users who only use that program. I'm a one-man do-everthing shop and it is way past stupid to have to try to learn not just variable shortcuts but often completely reversed ones. If we the users can re-map the shortcuts, then it should actually be "easy" for Adobe to simply have a second or third set of shortcuts choosable by menu.

     

    Neil

     
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    Feb 26, 2014 12:56 AM   in reply to R. Neil Haugen

    If one is anywhere near proficient in either AEFX or PPRO...navigation and fundamentals are the least of  what it takes to learn or use these apps to anywhere near their capability.

     

    Simplifying navigation wont compensate for  the rest of the learning curve.

     

    An AEFX pro will operate at an entirely different level to an NLE  editor due to the nature of the work. Just as a Photoshop , Lightroom, Illustrator or Web experts do.

     

    AEFX is frame by frame at down  to sub pixel level.  .PPRO is frame by frame over duration .

     

    No comparison in the skill sets or the tasks these apps require to master or operate.

     

    Generalising it as "video" is a simplistic as comparing rocket science and brain surgery.

     

    Rocket Surgery!

     

    Basics are a breeze for the expert.

     
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    Feb 26, 2014 9:27 AM   in reply to shooternz

    If one is anywhere near proficient in either AEFX or PPRO...

     

    The point is to make it easy in those other programs for those who are not yet proficient in them, but who do use PP as the hub of the suite of integrated programs.

     

     

    Simplifying navigation wont compensate for  the rest of the learning curve.

     

    Yeah, it will.  Having certain basic operations consistent between programs will make things a lot easier for those venturing into the rest of the suite.

     

     

    No comparison in the skill sets or the tasks these apps require to master or operate.

     

    Never said there was.  But having different sets of basic commands that are shared between the video programs does add an unnecessary level of difficulty to the learning process.  Your analogy is flawed here.  It's more like brain surgery and heart surgery.  Very different disciplines, but there is much in common between them.  It would make no sense for the heart surgeon to use a scalpel and the brain surgeon to use a steak knife, which is pretty much what we've got now in the Adobe suite.

     

    Certain basics should be consistent for all the relevant programs.

     
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    Feb 26, 2014 11:44 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Here is an example of same tool ...different purposes.

     

    The Scroll Wheel.

     

    PPRo scroll wheel is used in the timeline for scrolling the timeline interface. It has no use in preview scrubbing or playback..

     

    Same scroll wheel in the Source or Monitor windows is an extremely precise frame to frame positioner of the play head. Ideally suited to edit point making and trimming .  In the Program Monitor ..the scroll wheel moves the playhead in the Sequence.

     

    In AEFX the scroll wheel is used to zoom in and out of the COMP Window. Enlarging and decreasing the frame to get at the detail and part of the image that is being worked on.

     

    In conjunction with the Hand Tool... it is ideally suited to how fx artists and compositors work.at pixel level eg painting and rotoscoping , masking, motioning elements from outside the frame.

     

    I and others tend to use the Hand tool (short cut) and the Tool required in tandem,... by flicking back and forth.

     

    Re positioning and moving the enlarged image around the frame for precise working.  (Photoshop artists often do the same for the same reason) Bigger/smaller working at a detail level.

     

     

    So your suggestion is that AEFX drops that behaviour to match PPRO and make it a navigation tool?

     

    What would you suggest replaces the scroll wheel action in AEFX?

     
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    Feb 26, 2014 12:10 PM   in reply to shooternz

    Shooter,

     

    For someone other than an old hand like yourself, we could use other options and not be displeased. As per Jim's suggestion, I wouldn't say we have to take your toys away. But it would be awfully nice to have that option for the rest of us to use a set of controls that is more uniformly conformed through the entire suite.

     

    You approach the programs as an experienced hand who's put his time in and in this case sound like you feel everybody else needs to put their da*+ time in too. There are other options ... always are. In Photoshop for example I'm very used to using the bracket keys to zoom in/out. Didn't know the trackwheel could help with that, but ... cool. So, in Ae perhaps for those of us new-fangled multi-program dudes & dudesses could chose to use the scroll wheel on its own as (like unto PrPro) a navigational tool. And use a modifier key/scroll-wheel combo for zooming. Or simply the ol' bracket keys all by themselves for zooming in/out.

     

    Possiblities ... 

     

    Neil

     
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    Feb 26, 2014 12:30 PM   in reply to R. Neil Haugen

    Options...sure...I am ok with them ...but coders cant help but do "feature creep"

     

    You can ask the 2 dedicated keyboards I have sitting idle on the shelf that Adobe made redundant by shortcut changes!

     

    My feeling is that both these applications have developed over time with the help of a lot of user input ...but to me...its the high end user that I have most respect for.  The guys that use this stuff all day, every day.

     

    Having a smart version and a dumbed down version just seems to be a waste of  Adobe time for something that works very well and proven so.

     

    Adobe do allow a lot of keyboard customisation already and they also provide more than one way to skin the cat too.

     

    Seriously though...I would be keen to see how this would go down in the AEFX Forum as a new thread. 

     

    I am not game to start itthough.

     
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    Feb 26, 2014 4:48 PM   in reply to shooternz

    In AEFX the scroll wheel is used to zoom in and out of the COMP Window.

     

    I'm not saying everything has to match.  There can and should be discussion on which commands do match across programs.  I'm only proposing the idea that such discussion is worthy and should take a high priority for Adobe.  They sell the suite as an integrated whole, this is a critical part of that goal.

     
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    Feb 26, 2014 6:24 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    They sell the suite as an integrated whole, this is a critical part of that goal.

     

    "suite...integrated whole"  ...huh?  "

    The Cloud" is not a suite any more for a start.

     

    Critical..really?

     

    There can and should be discussion on which commands do match across programs.

     

    You start the discussion with five suggestions.

     
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    Feb 26, 2014 9:09 PM   in reply to shooternz

    Well, everybody knows there can NEVER be heavier than air flight. Period. Total waste of time even talking about it.

     
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    Feb 26, 2014 9:19 PM   in reply to R. Neil Haugen

    There is heavier than air and hot air.

     

    So what would your 5 suggestions for a commonality between PPRO and AEFX be Neil?

     

    Hopefully what you and Jim come up with wont mean I will have to buy another keyboard!

     
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    Feb 26, 2014 10:06 PM   in reply to shooternz

    Don't want you to have to buy another keyboard my good man. That's where Jim's marvy suggestion of keyboard shortcut presets comes in.

     

    Although, if we did get such a feature ... you might find over time that newer "real pros" would learn using the unified set ... and it would be you old-timer's who'd still be using the old tried-&-true.

     

    Between Prelude, PrPro, AeFx, & Sg ... I'd love to have the option to have the shortcuts to move forward/backward by clip/s the same; to move up/down layer stacks the same; to copy & paste settings the same; muting/un-muting audio; jumping from panel to panel; zoom in/out. That's a start.

     

    Neil

     
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    Feb 26, 2014 10:29 PM   in reply to shooternz

    You start the discussion with five suggestions.

     

    Did that in post 7.

     

    And yes, regardless of it's name, I do see Adobe as selling the "group of programs" as a whole solution to the post production pipeline.  I think Dynamic Link and Direct Link are excellent examples of that viewpoint.  Common basic commands across programs should be the next step.

     
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    Feb 27, 2014 11:47 AM   in reply to shooternz

    And Shooter ... please do understand that I am SO aware of how much of a blithering noob idiot at this I am compared to you and probably most other people on here. I've some ideas for changes I'd like and I'm never shy about saying so.

     

    I would also be thrilled if you were say in Portland OR, and not nz ... and I could pester you to let me watch you work for a week or so. THAT would be an education worth having ...

     

    Neil

     
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    Feb 27, 2014 12:05 PM   in reply to R. Neil Haugen

    You may learn more from a shoot with me than anything in the edit suite.

     

    I flounder around a lot as well ...and I judge that from the considerable amount of time I have spent with the heavy end users who really know how to work the Compositing apps.

     
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    Feb 27, 2014 1:37 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Common basic commands across programs should be the next step.

     

    Many are despite the fact PPro has 9 pages of Keyboard shortcuts (customisable) and AEFX has 20 pages (non customisable).

     

    A massive task to create an  option or user customisable keys for AEFX whichever way you look at it.

     

    You consider PPRO the hub.  AEFX guys consider AEFX is the centre of their universe. 

     

    PPro is just like a simple editing plugin to them.

     
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    Feb 27, 2014 3:52 PM   in reply to shooternz

    AEFX guys consider AEFX is the centre of their universe. 

     

    Look at it this way, where does there stuff usually end up?  In the NLE!

     

    I'm sure there are colorists who might look at SpeedGrade the same way, and audio engineers who'd champion for no change to Audition.  The point is to get everyone on the same page for certain basic actions so that it becomes easier to step outside your one program universe and expand your skill set across the full suite.

     

    I just can't see how that's a bad thing, especially if Adobe includes the 'retro-presets' for those who just don't want to leave their universe.

     
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    Feb 27, 2014 4:41 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Look at it this way, where does there stuff usually end up?  In the NLE!

     

    Not in my experience and best practice.  FX Last ...right!.

     

    Smoke , AEFX etc  ...whatever... is generally last stage and the output to a Master comes from the final app in the CG/ FX, ..pipeline.

     

    The NLE was traditionally an offline edting system. Online always done elsewhere in higher end systems and apps..

     

    NLE  capabilties have grown up a little but its not final solution.

     
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    Feb 27, 2014 4:51 PM   in reply to shooternz

    FX Last ...right!.

     

    Sure, but they still have to be integrated into the whole, which is where?  That's right...the NLE.

     

    You are thinking 'big studio' here, where there are one or more people dedicated to a specific part of the production pipeline, where picture lock is the norm.

     

    Think one man shop who needs to make changes even after delivery, and you'll see what I'm saying.

     
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    Feb 27, 2014 5:58 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Sure, but they still have to be integrated into the whole, which is where?  That's right...the NLE.

     

    Sure....Not ideal pipeline ...but it happens because it can . Especially simple work.

     

    Doesnt happen on major productions!  Avatar was not integrated in an NLE and not many highend TVCs would be either.

     

    You are thinking 'big studio' here,....

     

    Of course. I still like to think that Adobe is making and developing product with "big studio" capabilty for the rest of us to take advantage of.

     

    As soon as it becomes big button software...I will be worried.

     
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    Feb 27, 2014 10:17 PM   in reply to shooternz

    Had a new pastor once, who thought that the "shepherding" program was great (people were geographically organized with a sort-of "watch commander" working to keep track of needs as they arose) and another program that dealt with personal/family emergencies such as deaths, emergency counseling, also thought that was great. And agreed that churches should do something like that.

     

    However ... no actions ever came out of the church office after he took over to "engage" one of those programs. So ... they died, of course. What was the problem? He was worried that well, it was possible that if "we" did such things, the church might become a social services agency rather than a theological organization. His fears/worries of that horrid fate precluded allowing the members to set up any framework to care for each other. Fears overcoming opportunities to the point of preventing needs from being taken care of.

     

    I don't see how having an option of a uniform set of navigational tools over the four/five programs of the video "suite" will necessarily turn all of this into a big-button amateur-hour software concern. It would mean that keyboard shorts would be a lot more usable to one-man shops like ... oh, me, for instance. Who use all the bloody dang programs, and wish to HA$%S that there was a more unified GUI and keyboard shorts available.

     

    Neil

     
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    Feb 28, 2014 9:04 AM   in reply to shooternz

    As soon as it becomes big button software...I will be worried.

     

    Oh, I agree.  But big button and big studio aren't the same thing.  With shortcut presets, there's no reason Adobe can't retain the 'dedicated' user base it has now, and make life easier for others who use the entire suite as the integrated whole Adobe is marketing.

     

    And there's really no reason that the dedicated user can't learn the new shortcuts.  We've done it once or twice in PP, so AE users can do it too.  And if that makes it easier for them to venture into PP, SG, or Prelude down the road, so much the better.

     
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    Feb 28, 2014 2:08 PM   in reply to R. Neil Haugen

    don't see how having an option of a uniform set of navigational tools over the four/five programs of the video "suite" will necessarily turn all of this into a big-button amateur-hour software concern. It would mean that keyboard shorts would be a lot more usable to one-man shops like ..

     

    Because the task of creating an alternate set of commands (Option)  plus a unified GUI is an immense amount of work for so little gain.

     

    "Fix it til its broken"

     

    What actually is so difficult with the basic Navigation anyway?

     

    What are the five Adobe "video programs" you consider could all have Navigation Tool and GUI consistency?

     

    Simple "big button software" is  a term for featureless easy to use programs that hold the users hand... and assumes they are visually challenged for some reason...and has nothing to do with how many users are in the "shop".

     

    Most graphic and video artists are one man shops in practice.

     

    Its not like they have a dude that does the navigation and another to do the work and another to do the export and another to go to photoshop and another to export the work..........

     

    Anyways...everyone to their own interesting ways and opinions

     

    We must have done this thing to death and its only of academic value really.

     

    Any one noted that no one else has an opinion especially from the integrated AEFX team.

     

    [Text formatting corrected.]

     

    Message was edited by: Jim Simon

     
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    Feb 28, 2014 2:36 PM   in reply to shooternz

    Because the task of creating an alternate set of commands (Option)  plus a unified GUI is an immense amount of work for so little gain.

     

    We've got the unified GUI in all but SpeedGrade (which in my view, really needs that update).  And while I'm not a programmer for Adobe, I'm finding it pretty difficult to believe that it'd be all that much work to change a few basic shortcuts.

     

     

    What actually is so difficult with the basic Navigation anyway?

     

     

    Difficult is a relative term.  Learning different commands for the same action in every program is more difficult than learning those commands once and having them work in all the programs.

     

     

    What are the five Adobe "video programs"

     

    I would say Prelude, Premiere Pro, After Effects and SpeedGrade at a minimum.

     

    its only of academic value really.

     

    Only until the FR goes up.  (It may be after that, too...but I hope not. )

     
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    Feb 28, 2014 2:31 PM   in reply to shooternz

    I've already been told by a staffer for one of the other programs that unifying the gui & shorts are considered a worthwhile and not overly daunting part of the process; actually, a necessary set of steps. An iterative part, and yes partly fueled by internal wishes to have a sweet 'suite' and partly by comments from the base. Not a huge must-have-completely-and-forever-finalized by next release, but as part of the ongoing development of the programs. Plural. Manageable workload, and for a perceived worthwhile gain. How & what the changes are ... completely open-ended discussions.

     

    You keep going to the AeFx side of things. That's the program I use the least currently. Which is of course subject to change as my skills and experience and (naturally) needs build. The length of the shorts pdf for that compared to say PrPro is almost laughable. Wow, that's ... a lot of shorts to even think of learning! But then, AeFx is an amazing program. Even for video software. Still, the total number of shorts that would be changed for a "unified set" option isn't that many, really.

     

    For me, your objections are quite similar to say, two people looking at the same building. It's got ... shall we say, "character"? There are pipes hanging across hallways at varying heights, floors that shift up or down an inch or two or four randomly, halls that narrow around wider rooms then open back out, and lights and their accompanying switches placed in a totally random way.

     

    One person says ... leave it as is, ANYONE can just look around and see they need to pay attention to moving around here ... let 'em do so and get on with life.

     

    The other person says ... if we start working on some of this chaos, over time we'll have a building much easier to get around and work in. Fewer knocked noggins on the pipes, less time hunting for light-switches, fewer trips over sudden floor changes.

     

    One chooses which person he/she will be in this scenario. And will probably switch viewpoints depending on the particular issue.

     

    A last comment ... yea, I've noted I've not heard any complaints from any AeFx types other than you. Interesting, eh?

     

    Neil

     
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    Feb 28, 2014 2:41 PM   in reply to shooternz

    Look at it this way, shooter.

     

    What would you think of Microsoft Office if CTRL+C was the copy command in Word, SHIFT+C was the copy command in Excel, and there was no copy command in PowerPoint.  If this was software you used every day for work, would you be satisfied?

     
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    Feb 28, 2014 2:48 PM   in reply to R. Neil Haugen

    Ha ha!

     

    A last comment ... yea, I've noted I've not heard any complaints from any AeFx types other than you. Interesting, eh?

     

    Because you guys wont post up the idea over in AEFX Forum. They rarely hang out here.

     

    Note... there has not been much uptake from the user types  that do hang out here was the main point.

     

     

    You keep going to the AeFx side of things.

     

     

    Cos thats the "side" that will get affected most ...and its such a different program in useage and purpose..it does not need  "navigation"  the same as the others.

     
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    Feb 28, 2014 2:50 PM   in reply to shooternz

    If you can perform the action (such as frame advance), then it should be the same shortcut across programs.  We have this with Cut, Copy, Paste.  We need it for a few more specific to video.

     
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    Feb 28, 2014 3:58 PM   in reply to shooternz

    Um ... given that Adobe already uses multiple shorts options in several of the programs (the oft-mentioned FCP set as one) I don't see why adding a unified-short set for their own suite would be so horrendous, ground-shaking, or even ... different. Especially as those guys over at the AeFx forum you so worry about won't even notice the change as they keep the same shorts they've always had.

     

    Neil

     
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