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Two spaces after a period

May 27, 2007 9:45 AM

Where would I modifiy my CSS to allow for the appearance of two literal spaces after each period in a paragraph. If you are typing body text, Dreamweaver appears to assume you only meant one space between sentences.
 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 27, 2007 10:02 AM   in reply to foxetown
    HTML as a rule ignores multiple spaces and treats them as single spaces,
    and there's no practical way for CSS to handle this. What you'll need
    to do is as non-breaking spaces -   for each space you want. You
    can do this in DW with Ctrl-Shift-Space.

    But, are you sure you really want to do this? Even though people did
    this back in the days of typewriters, it's not really a common sight
    these days, and may lead to text wrapping problems. Consider it carefully.

    - Josh

    foxetown wrote:
    > Where would I modifiy my CSS to allow for the appearance of two literal spaces
    > after each period in a paragraph. If you are typing body text, Dreamweaver
    > appears to assume you only meant one space between sentences.
    >
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 27, 2007 12:49 PM   in reply to foxetown
    The first thing professionals do, after rolling their eyes, when receiving double-spaced text from somebody (in a print environment) is to eliminate them. I'm no web guru, but I'd assume extra spacing on the web would be just as frowned upon by the pros.
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 27, 2007 1:55 PM   in reply to foxetown
    You are correct. Double-spacing after a sentence dates back to typewriter
    days when all fonts were mono-spaced. The double-spacing was needed to
    clearly separate sentences. Now with computer-generated
    proportionally-spaced fonts the double-spacing in not just unnecessary it
    just plain looks bad and wastes space.

    --

    Walt


    "stevenkay" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
    news:f3cnc5$5ad$1@forums.macromedia.com...
    > The first thing professionals do, after rolling their eyes, when receiving
    > double-spaced text from somebody (in a print environment) is to eliminate
    > them.
    > I'm no web guru, but I'd assume extra spacing on the web would be just as
    > frowned upon by the pros.
    >


     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 27, 2007 2:12 PM   in reply to foxetown
    Old habits die hard. I was taught to type the same way and still do in
    emails and letters. But double spaces are passé in print and web design.

    --Nancy

    "foxetown" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
    news:f3ccio$md3$1@forums.macromedia.com...
    > Where would I modifiy my CSS to allow for the appearance of two literal
    spaces
    > after each period in a paragraph. If you are typing body text,
    Dreamweaver
    > appears to assume you only meant one space between sentences.
    >


     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 27, 2007 2:24 PM   in reply to Newsgroup_User
    >You are correct. Double-spacing after a sentence dates back to typewriter
    >days when all fonts were mono-spaced.

    OK, this is getting off topic now, but is there anyway in MS Word to locate double spaces between sentences? I just finished a class and got dinged a few points on a paper that had a few sentences with 2 spaces between them. Is there anything in the spelling/grammer tools?
     
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    May 27, 2007 4:50 PM   in reply to foxetown

    "Nancy O" <nancyoshea1@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote in message
    news:f3cs74$aiq$1@forums.macromedia.com...
    > Old habits die hard. I was taught to type the same way and still do in
    > emails and letters.

    Me too! and it is a hard habit to break :-)


    --
    Nadia
    Adobe® Community Expert : Dreamweaver
    ----------------------------------------
    CSS Templates |Tutorials |SEO Articles
    http://www.DreamweaverResources.com
    ~ Customisation Service Available ~
    http://www.csstemplates.com.au
    ----------------------------------------------------





     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 27, 2007 5:16 PM   in reply to Newsgroup_User
    On 27 May 2007 in macromedia.dreamweaver, bregent wrote:

    > OK, this is getting off topic now, but is there anyway in MS Word to
    > locate double spaces between sentences? I just finished a class and
    > got dinged a few points on a paper that had a few sentences with 2
    > spaces between them. Is there anything in the spelling/grammer
    > tools?

    There should be a setting in auto-correct to change two spaces after a
    sentence to one. (I'm not sure; I know that there is in my word
    processor of choice, Word Perfect.) If there's not, as somebody else
    suggested, search for . or ? or ! followed by two spaces.

    [Note the paragraph above has two spaces between every sentence. So does
    this one. That old habit is awful hard to break. --Ed]

    --
    Joe Makowiec
    http://makowiec.net/
    Email: http://makowiec.net/contact.php
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 27, 2007 5:23 PM   in reply to foxetown
    It's not just passe, it's not possible in HTML without resorting to a
    non-breaking space.

    --
    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
    Adobe Community Expert
    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
    ==================
    http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
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    http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
    http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
    ==================


    "Nancy O" <nancyoshea1@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote in message
    news:f3cs74$aiq$1@forums.macromedia.com...
    > Old habits die hard. I was taught to type the same way and still do in
    > emails and letters. But double spaces are passé in print and web design.
    >
    > --Nancy
    >
    > "foxetown" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
    > news:f3ccio$md3$1@forums.macromedia.com...
    >> Where would I modifiy my CSS to allow for the appearance of two literal
    > spaces
    >> after each period in a paragraph. If you are typing body text,
    > Dreamweaver
    >> appears to assume you only meant one space between sentences.
    >>
    >
    >

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 27, 2007 7:04 PM   in reply to Newsgroup_User
    >There should be a setting in auto-correct to change two spaces after a
    >sentence to one. (I'm not sure; I know that there is in my word
    >processor of choice, Word Perfect.)

    Ah, found it:
    Tools->Options-Spelling and Grammar->Settings. There's an option for space required between sentences that can be set to 1, 2 or Dont Check.

    Thanks,
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 28, 2007 12:20 AM   in reply to foxetown
    In QuarkXPress I've always just did a Find/Change (even though you can't see the spaces you type in the field, the software sees them) then just choose to "Find and Change All." I wonder if Quark has a similar option in Spell Check too... I never bothered to check... it wouldn't be any faster anyway, I guess.

    And not that it has anything to do with Dreamweaver... LOL!
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 28, 2007 4:38 PM   in reply to foxetown
    "Walt F. Schaefer" <walt@waltswebworx.com> wrote:

    > Now with computer-generated proportionally-spaced fonts the double-spacing in not just unnecessary it just plain looks bad

    Beauty is in the eye of the holder, and to my eye double space sentence breaks
    make printed matter just that little bit easier to read. Granted, with
    proportional font the difference is very small, but to my eye it does help, and
    the small difference means that if you don't approve there is even less reason
    for you to get uptight about it.

    > and wastes space.

    Crap! I printed a paragraph from a paper of mine, first with double spaces, and
    then with single spaces. It made no difference to the word wrapping, or the
    overall size of the document. The only difference was that the lines with
    sentence breaks in them were one millimetre (in approximately 160!) longer. On
    rare occasions the extra space might be just enough to reshuffle the word
    wrapping and make the document one line longer, but I think this would be the
    exception rather than the rule. And even this would only be significant if it
    caused the document to wrap on to another page.

    So you are getting your knickers in a knot over something which is a matter of
    personal taste, and which has a barely visible effect on the finished product.


    Clancy
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 28, 2007 6:18 PM   in reply to foxetown
    > "… if you don't approve there is even less reason for you to get uptight about it."

    > "So you are getting your knickers in a knot over something which is a matter of
    personal taste…"

    I didn't read any posts here that suggested anybody was uptight; just some unwelcomed opinions and facts.

    If one wants to use double spaces, go for it. If one wants to use CMYK 300 DPI images on the web, or hit the period key three times for an ellipsis, or use multiple spaces in place of tabs, or drive on the wrong side of the road, then go for it. Nobody's gonna lose any sleep.
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 29, 2007 9:44 AM   in reply to foxetown
    Perhaps you wouldn't feel that way if you were the person who's been required to delete thousands of those spaces over these past 17 years. (insert eye-roll here).
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 29, 2007 1:15 PM   in reply to stevenkay
    The MIcrosoft menus that suddenly decide you didn't
    > really need all of the menu options on the dropdown are a pet peeve of
    > mine.

    Agreed. Mine too.

    I've always considered that a poor (albeit well-intentioned) move by
    Microsoft. It just confuses people.

    I always disable it via Tools > Customize > Options > "Always show full
    menus"

    --
    Regards

    John Waller


     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 29, 2007 1:57 PM   in reply to foxetown
    Since this is getting so large I will just add I was taught to do double space back in typewriter days, but have never done so in the days of the web. I ways delete double spaces and replace with single. Too bad there is no poll tool in this forum so we could see how many people use double space vs single space. I already know the answer to this. As for opinions as what looks good together, one of my old boss thought that brown went together with everything and made me use brown in so many web designs. Needless to say, not 1 of those sites are on my resume so if you think 2 spaces look better than 1 its just your opinion. What matter's is your client's or boss's opinion and I would suggest doing single space and if they say something then go through all the extra work of adding a 2nd space.
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 29, 2007 2:28 PM   in reply to stevenkay
    It's easy to break yourself of this habit: just enable the disable multiple consecutive spaces option in your word processor.

    When I was younger my sister used to do it all the time, so I turned it on without saying anything and the problem dissapeared overnight!

    Back to topic: a browser will not wrap a line between "  " as this is by definition a non-breaking space. The only way I can think of to do it is with the actual ascii code for the space character, "&#32;&#32;".

    Needless to say this is ugly - my advised solution to your problem is to ignore it and call it a feature.
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 29, 2007 3:06 PM   in reply to foxetown
    Without getting into what is proper as far as 1 or 2 spaces after a period, I think the root issue here is what is right for the site the OP is working on. The site is about typesetting in past times, back when there were 2 or more spaces after a period. Since the site is supposed to reflect the conventions used then, inserting 2 spaces is proper. Insert 2 nonbreaking spaces. If it were a site about web design, 1 space would be proper.
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 29, 2007 3:33 PM   in reply to foxetown
    Well, I know that I never said anything about which "looked" better. All I'm implying is that double-spaces (anywhere on a document) is not only frowned upon, but an "unacceptable" typesetting practice throughout the publishing industry. That's not my "opinion;" just a reality, regardless of which looks better.

    If I think green looks better than brown as a root beer label, and insist on using it, it will only reflect badly on myself as a designer.
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 29, 2007 3:55 PM   in reply to foxetown
    But you're talking about *current* standards in typesetting, which have little to do with the site the OP is working on. He wants the site to reflect the typesetting standards of *that time*. Thus, 2 spaces is proper.
    What you're suggesting is akin to telling someone to put a CD player in a 1957 Chevy. It may be something that people are putting in their cars now, but is not reflective of the time.
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 29, 2007 5:45 PM   in reply to foxetown
    I don't recall reading anywhere in this thread that the OP was attempting to "reflect" old typography in his/her body text. It appeared to me that he/she was simply claiming to have knowledge of it, and that the site was a "historical type" web site. The OP has only insisted on what spacing "looked" better to him/her, but not necessarily that he/she was trying to "recreate" that old typography style in the actual body text. It seems to me several other posters didn't conclude that either.

    If that's the case, I'd agree that's entirely different. But again, that was never made clear. If someone here was designing a website about crayons, I wouldn't automatically assume they wanted all of their text to look like it was written in crayon.

    >"What you're suggesting is akin to telling someone to put a CD player in a 1957 Chevy. "

    I never suggested the OP do anything; only the wide reaction double-spacing receives by most professionals. One can choose to do as one wishes with that information. Just as I do when my questions here are answered.
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 29, 2007 9:59 PM   in reply to stevenkay
    On Tue, 29 May 2007 16:53:37 +0000 (UTC), "foxetown"
    <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote:

    >I still maintain
    >that traditional typesetting is a lot easier to read, and that browsers
    >shouldn't make assumptions for human beings.

    There is a problem with your assertion, however. You seem to be saying
    that browsers should not collapse white space. If that were the case,
    the text would need to be displayed the same way in the browser as it
    appears in the source code. You could never indent something without it
    also being indented in the browser display.

    That said, that's the way HTML is supposed to work and, if you intend to
    produce web pages, you'll just need to adjust to it.

    Gary
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 29, 2007 10:10 PM   in reply to DC_Eric
    > And two or more spaces follow every period

    And some people decorate their homes with black velvet paintings, proving
    once again there is no accounting for taste.
    --

    Walt


    "foxetown" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
    news:f3i5k0$omg$1@forums.macromedia.com...
    > There are so many good causes in the world that I may have to forego my
    > passionate investment in "two spaces after a period," but I will say that
    > it
    > seems to be more than just a subjective argument about what looks better
    > to our
    > eyes. Since this little spat over "rolled eyes" and "passe" standards
    > began
    > here, I've been reviewing my fairly sizeable collection of books published
    > in
    > the 19th century. The typesetting is elegant. The paper is
    > beautiful.
    >
    > And two or more spaces follow every period.
    >
    > I happily stand with the ancients on this one.
    >


     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 29, 2007 10:17 PM   in reply to stevenkay
    > how hard you have to push mere technicians

    >The notion that people have to break a "bad"
    > habit--setting off sentences with a space or two--is a weird homage to
    > herd
    > mentality.

    So says you, and you say it like a true elitist.

    How can we ever show our gratitude for your taking time to enlighten us.

    HTML works the way it works. If you don't like it maybe you should consider
    a different medium to express your spectacularly superior taste. All your
    whining and wringing of hands is getting boring.

    Goodbye.

    --

    Walt


    "foxetown" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
    news:f3ij1k$a4v$1@forums.macromedia.com...
    > stevenkay,
    >
    > Here's my comment, from an earlier post: "...The site I run is
    > purposefully
    > nostalgic (living history oriented) and I spend a lot of my time looking
    > at
    > 18th and 19th century typesetting. I can't help thinking that the double
    > space
    > used then looks better than the claustrophobic version we've adopted now,
    > even
    > with proportional fonts..."
    >
    > The preponderance of "eye rolling" professionals who regard the historic
    > standard as "passe" is useful information. In my case, it's an
    > indication of
    > how hard you have to push mere technicians to achieve a standard this is
    > outside the norm. I have to deal with a lot of construction supervisors
    > who
    > don't know what cornice moulding is either, but they just admit their
    > ignorance.
    >
    > When you think about it--with respect to typography and "saving
    > space"--why
    > have paragraphs at all? Why put margins on a web page? Why set off
    > text
    > with white space? The notion that people have to break a "bad"
    > habit--setting off sentences with a space or two--is a weird homage to
    > herd
    > mentality.
    >
    >
    >


     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 29, 2007 10:52 PM   in reply to foxetown
    Don't any of us have anything better to do than argue about one space or two?

    And now just look at all that time I just wasted skimming through all these arguments and snipes.And then typing this response! And one with improper paragraphizationizingness and at least one werd spelled wrong.

    Let's get to something worthwhile such as the number of angels that can fit on the head of a pin. What was the answer to that, anyway?
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 30, 2007 1:26 AM   in reply to DC_Eric
    "foxetown" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote:

    >There are so many good causes in the world that I may have to forego my
    >passionate investment in "two spaces after a period," but I will say that it
    >seems to be more than just a subjective argument about what looks better to our
    >eyes.

    I agree with you that two spaces does make documents easier to read, but I
    cannot understand the religious fervour of the opponents to this theory. In the
    days of the fixed spaced typewriter two spaces made a real difference, but with
    modern proportional fonts the difference in appearance has been reduced to the
    point where it is almost subliminal. And, if you can barely see the difference
    anyway, why on earth get so uptight about the subject?

    As to two spaces being prohibited in the typesetting industry, typesetters (used
    to) exist to set documents for customers. If the customer wants two spaces, and
    they want to stay in business, they had better set it that way.

    For a different view on 19th century documents, have a look at
    http://www.corybas.com/Albums/General/Old_legal_document.php. This features a
    19th century legal document which is handwritten on a very wide sheet of
    parchment, with no punctuation, and no spaces of any type.
    The writer even went to the trouble of filling in any remaining space at the end
    of a line with twiddles, so that nothing could be inserted subsequently. And
    the document is virtually unreadable.

    Clancy
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 30, 2007 12:09 PM   in reply to foxetown
    Foxetown,

    Your earlier, pasted-in paragraph doesn't indicate whether or not you wish to mimic old typography as your body text in Dreamweaver; only that you prefer the double-spacing style of that era.

    BruceCSI2 wrote: "The site is about typesetting in past times..."

    I don't recall that ever being mentioned, either. Hence, all my posts being about 'today's" standards.
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 30, 2007 1:47 PM   in reply to foxetown
    >"Now go ahead. Someone compare that to clowns on velvet."

    LOL! I pictured Elvis, myself.
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 23, 2007 12:45 PM   in reply to stevenkay
    foxetown wrote:
    > No offense, but those are probably the same "pros" who can't copy-edit without
    > a spell-checker. If html browsers can't wrap text because of the extra space,
    > I understand why it is left out, but for years the extra space was actually
    > taught in typing and composition classes, and I believe I know why: it's more
    > readable.
    >

    But that was in typewriter days when all letters had the same width.
    Proportionally spaced fonts should not require the extra space.

    --
    Bonnie
     
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