Ariel,

To add to Bob's comments...

Standard bleed is 1/8" or 3 mm for this type of printing. Any printer worth dealing with can trim accurately to that fairly generous dimension. If he can't, he's a slob -- look elsewhere as he is likely to be sloppy in the rest of the job.

For this job, if your page is 29.7 x 21 cm, that is exactly the size you set up in your page layout app. The bleed portion of your art is extended 3 mm beyond that trim size.

But, the trim (crop) marks and registration marks, color bars and other marginalia are generated automatically by your printer when he outputs the job. There are few times I manually add cropmarks, the most frequent being for ganged-up business cards, note pads, and mailing labels.

Offhand, I'd say that the only time a printer will print onto exact-size sheets is when there is no bleed or multicolor registration issue, the volume is low (as can be with digital printing), and he is printing one-up. Other work will typically be on oversize sheets for the reasons cited in the paragraph above, and trimmed down. The trimmed-off scrap can be recycled.

Also, prepare your journal pages in InDesign or QuarkXPress in reading spreads. Let your printer do any page imposition.

Neil

Ariel,

Unless there are extenuating circumstances, 3 mm bleed should be all that's needed. We use 1/8" in the States, and all jobs I've done for printing overseas have had either 1/8" or 3 mm allowed for bleeds. Just extend the background, photos, rules, or whatever is to bleed, 3 mm beyond the trim edges of the pages.

For example, if the trim size is 28 x 20 cm (I assume this is 28 cm wide), and I want an overall color background, I'd create a box 283 x 206 mm, place it on the page. I would align it on the center fold, and extend 3 mm off the page on the opposite side, top and bottom. If you are printing that background color across the spread, then just create a single box with color, 566 x 266 mm and have it straddle the spread. (Yes, you can also place two 283 x 206 mm color boxes side by side, joining at the center fold in the spread.)

I recommend that you use "snap-to" guides 3 mm outside of the trim on your master pages to make it easy to know exactly how far to extend your bleed content.

When you speak to your printer, you have to tell him the specs anyway. He'll want to know the size, color, stock, and whether or not you have bleeds so he knows how to lay out the job for printing -- such as whether he can butt pages together, or whether he has to provide a gutter between for the bleeds.

No need to manually add crop marks -- they are automatically generated. You can even see this for yourself if you check "add crop marks" (or similar, in the print setup dialog boxes) which should add crop marks, register marks, file name, date and time in the margins to a proof off your laser printer or inkjet, and if you then print on an oversize sheet of paper. This is essentially what your printer will do.

Neil

Ariel,<br />>although the 101 on how to prepare bleeds wasn't necessary<br /><br />Good.  <g><br />>How to communicate your "trim" intentions with the printer?<br /><br />Give him the specs for the journal: "28 x 20 cm trim size, horizontal, plus bleed." Although, at least in the States, the horizontal dimension is typically provided first.<br />>the couple of dozen books I've prepared, I've usually had to prepare a special diagram showing the distance from the end of the text line to the edge of the page, plus the distance to the top edge, etc., which I send to the printer, or plate-maker.<br /><br />While it certainly can't hurt, with any decent printer, this would be a totally needless exercise. Your InDesign or QuarkXPress layout pages as you've defined them, or press-quality PDF or PDF/X1a files made from them, would clearly show him <i>exactly</i> where the crop/trim is in relationship to the text or any other graphic elements on the page.<br />>I have occassionally tried simply to enable the option in InDesign to add crop marks when creating the PDF. However, the printers tend to tell me that this isn't helpful. Not sure why not?<br /><br />Ask the printer. The only reason that comes to mind is that when they do page imposition, they have to recreate crop marks to reflect the layout of the entire signature. But I see no harm in doing so, as there then won't be any confusion if any of the pages includes bleeds.<br />>I've had some experiences where I took care to design the book with non-symmetrical margins. I added crop marks, sent the file off, and got a proof back with symmetrical margins. Printers seem to assume that margins are always symmetrical.<br /><br />Sounds like you're dealing with some seriously challenged printers who don't bother to check your files and your supplied printouts against their proofs. How do you say, "Idiot!" in Hebrew?  <g> I've never had to tell a printer what the margins are. He follows the layout in the file, or full-size printout I send along with the files.<br />>I don't know if you do much by way of 200+ pp books, but presumably the principles are the same whatever the content or length.<br /><br />None. But, yes, the principle is the same, whether doing a simple flyer, an advertisement, stationery, or package design.<br /><br />I hope this helps.<br /><br />Neil

Always ask the printer what they want if you don't know - I have had specs anywhere from .0625" bleed to .5" on larger pieces. Good communication with the printer is key - Neil is right on.

Best of luck!

pbc

Paul,
>I have had specs anywhere from .0625" bleed to .5" on larger pieces.

Yes, of course. But even for fair-sized packaging on coated corrugated, 1/8" has been sufficient for the printers I've worked with. And Ariel is talking about a journal pretty much letter-sized.

Neil

The only circumstance I would not want crop marks on a sheet is if they are butting the live area - and this happens occasionally. 1/8" bleed and marks 1/8" from the live area are my guidelines. If the sheet is not large enough to accommodate the marks, it's not generally a problem; center the work and trim to size. Marks not needed.