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Hebrew fonts?

Jun 18, 2007 11:52 AM

  Latest reply: Dov Isaacs, Jul 10, 2013 12:27 PM
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    Apr 30, 2008 3:24 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    I know that Mr Koren was famous for his Thursday evening tactic. In Israel Friday isnt a workday and we work Sunday instead. At the end of the day on Thursday, he would collect all the work from every employee and take it home, only to return it on Sunday morning, lest anybody should accidentally come to work on Shabbat and work on the Koren Tanakh.

    Mr. Koren was frum, even very modern?

    I wonder that happened when they printed Bibles in the past. Probably not.

    If non-Jews printed it on Shabbat, there is no violation of Shabbat, unless the printing Jewish owned property.

    I doubt if the Romm brother the Romm widow allowed their non-Jewish worker to use their printing on Shabbat. No matter what people say about them and their modern ways. So, they didn't have peyot!
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 3:24 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    >I don't understand what you're saying. You seem here to contradict every you said about Koren. If I understand you correctly, you'd rather daven in a shul with the old kind of Vilna chumashim. Are you saying this?

    LOL. No, Im saying that I work for Koren and Im working on the digitisation of the Koren font. When Im in shul, Im supposed to be concentrating on davening, but of course Im using a Koren siddur or a Koren Chumash so when I see things that werent done so well, I start thinking, "oooh, I must program that mercha better" which of course is working on shabbat!

    I thought we agreed that I had a sense of humour.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 3:25 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    (unless you dont like the mizrachi component)

    Listen, if the Satmar get upset and everything, I'll buy you some marshmellows. :)
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 3:32 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    Why do you assume somebody will mechalel shabbos. Thats not very generous of you.

    If a secular Jew in Israel or anywhere violate the Shabbat, he or she is not mechalel Shabbos, rather he or she simply has not learned how beautiful it is to observe. That's the chovat gavra (ask Harbs); but if he or she produced a work on Shabbos, the work must be destroyed (chovas hoftza) - see Shulchan Orech.

    Remember, Raphael, I'm a Lubavitcher who taught to love and mekarev every Jew.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 3:38 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    when you say automatically, what do you mean? Do you mean that the font can examine to see the shape of the nikud and team and then adjust accordingly, or do you have to tell it all the combinations?

    Good question. Not exactly. Automatically means the font determines the narrow width factor of the letter, and then rearranges the entire of nikkud taam maybe meteg in a semblance to fit under the narrow.

    Then, this is modified by rules, determined by the particular kind of nikkud, taam, maybe meteg.

    Do you understand.

    An appended data base could then tell the font that under those circumstances a slightly different fitting should be used instead. That's my contribution.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 3:44 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    Well thats a little more complicated because there are many different opinions. For example, using Israeli pronunciation, do you say tzahorayim (according to Sefardi masora) or tzohorayim (according to ashkenazi masora) again when I say ashkenazi masora, that means Shabbat and Chochma, but it means that the first kamatz becomes a kamatz katan.

    Also, within tefilla, different parts of tefilla follow different rules, some parts follow the grammatical rules of the tanakh, some follow that of the rishonim and some follow that of modern hebrew. We have a team of rabbinical grammarians doing this for the new Koren Siddur for the USA, where the siddur has kamatz katan, shva na and metegs throughout the siddur.

    Shva na follows a simple rule that no one debate. Farkash is working on making the entire Tanach with shva nas.

    Now regarding komatz katan according to various views, this is no problem in software; only in print form.

    How do you pay the team, by the hour?
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 3:54 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    My point is that its okay to move the trop downwards.

    Downwards? I must reread what you wrote, as I think I misunderstood.

    If you are going to move the trop down, then put the nikud back in the correct position if possible. If not, then move the trop down and move the nikud. However, I never move the nikud by much and certainly dont want a nikud in the middle of the resh instead of the foot.

    Remember that by design, the trop is thinner than the nikud (and the nikud thinner than the letters) therefore it will never stand out.

    Adil Allawi of Ready Set Go in London showed his Koran with floating layers where one group of nikkud like marks were in black, and the second group of taam like marks were in red. The layers could be turned on or off at will, to aid the reader. Hence the distinction between the taam and nikkud need only to be by color, not by thickness or by higher or lower position.

    The purpose of thickness is to draw attention that the thicker one is greater than the thinner. I think this is a wrong message to send. One is not more important than the other. Distinguish between them simply by color.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 4:31 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    The Guttman Vilna that came with Dagesh was of course Guttmans. There are other Vilnas out there which Guttman didnt create. I know that Kivun licensed Guttmans Toptype collection. Guttman also sold his fonts to Microsoft. However, if it doesnt say Guttman Vilna and just Vilna, then this isnt Guttmans and perhaps you have a very very old version of Dagesh before they licenced the Toptype library. However, things were a bit of a balagan at Accent/Kivun

    I am referring to the ugly Vilna font used by every publisher in Israel or America, who make a Chumash, Shas etc, to save a few bucks in retypesetting G-d's holy books (how disgusting!)

    Even Pierre, President and CEO of WinSoft in France, who made Adobe InDesign ME, said that Adobe should make a meaningful good will gesture and help sponsor the creation of all these classic holy books using Adobe's software and the exact replica of the original Vilna typeface to show the entire world that the Jewish Bible and Talmud can be perfectly recreated and printed, and made also into searchable PDF. Furthermore, he said he'd tell Mr. John Warnock, now the Chairman of Adobe directly to his face.

    Now, Raphael, isn't that the way it should be?
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 9:00 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    This is one of the most unusual discussions ever to grace the Adobe User-to-User Forums. I almost mistook this for mail-jewish! :-)

    But what I don't understand is why Adobe, a public nonsectarian company, should somehow as a "meaningful goodwill gesture ... help sponsor the creation of all these classic holy books suing Adobe's software." This would put Adobe in direct competition with some of its customers who do this for a living. Plus, we have a hard enough time just getting enough resources to get our software developed, tested, debugged, and supported. (Maybe someday we'll actually be able to integrate InDesign ME's support of R-to-L languages into the mainline InDesign code and not have to have a separate edition whenever you want to use Ivrit for even part of a document!) And if we did all the classic Jewish holy books, why shouldn't be also do those for the Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, etc.? This really isn't Adobe's current business nor a business that we want to enter. That's what are customers are best at.

    - Dov
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 9:15 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    >Shva na follows a simple rule that no one debate. Farkash is working on making the entire Tanach with shva nas.

    er, no. There are different opinions about this. We're Jewish after all. Eg yevarechecha or yevarechcha.

    >Now regarding komatz katan according to various views, this is no problem in software; only in print form.

    yes it is. Is the first kamatz in tzohorayim a kamatz katan or a kamatz gadol According to sefardim it's a kamatz katan and ashkenazim say it's a kamatz gadol.

    >How do you pay the team, by the hour?
    off topic.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 9:16 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    >The purpose of thickness is to draw attention that the thicker one is greater than the thinner. I think this is a wrong message to send. One is not more important than the other. Distinguish between them simply by color.

    I guess that is an approach, but it's expensive to print in more than one colour. BTW if you want to quote me use the '>' before my text and it will indent.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 9:18 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    >Even Pierre, President and CEO of WinSoft in France, who made Adobe InDesign ME, said that Adobe should make a meaningful good will gesture and help sponsor the creation of all these classic holy books using Adobe's software and the exact replica of the original Vilna typeface to show the entire world that the Jewish Bible and Talmud can be perfectly recreated and printed, and made also into searchable PDF. Furthermore, he said he'd tell Mr. John Warnock, now the Chairman of Adobe directly to his face.
    >Now, Raphael, isn't that the way it should be?

    I think that now you can typeset all these holy books in InDesign. We are retypesetting the Koren Tanakh in InDesign with the help of Harbs add in scripts. Winsoft has done great work.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 9:20 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    >But what I don't understand is why Adobe, a public nonsectarian company, should somehow as a "meaningful goodwill gesture ... help sponsor the creation of all these classic holy books suing Adobe's software." This would put Adobe in direct competition with some of its customers who do this for a living. Plus, we have a hard enough time just getting enough resources to get our software developed, tested, debugged, and supported. (Maybe someday we'll actually be able to integrate InDesign ME's support of R-to-L languages into the mainline InDesign code and not have to have a separate edition whenever you want to use Ivrit for even part of a document!) And if we did all the classic Jewish holy books, why shouldn't be also do those for the Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, etc.? This really isn't Adobe's current business nor a business that we want to enter. That's what are customers are best at.

    Dov of course (as always) is correct.

    I personally would love it if the regular InDesign incorporated ME.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 1:12 PM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    But what I don't understand is why Adobe, a public nonsectarian company, should somehow as a "meaningful goodwill gesture ... help sponsor the creation of all these classic holy books suing Adobe's software." This would put Adobe in direct competition with some of its customers who do this for a living. Plus, we have a hard enough time just getting enough resources to get our software developed, tested, debugged, and supported. (Maybe someday we'll actually be able to integrate InDesign ME's support of R-to-L languages into the mainline InDesign code and not have to have a separate edition whenever you want to use Ivrit for even part of a document!) And if we did all the classic Jewish holy books, why shouldn't be also do those for the Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, etc.? This really isn't Adobe's current business nor a business that we want to enter. That's what are customers are best at.

    Dov, before you jump to conclusions, allow me answer your every point well taken. After you acknowledge the conclusions, can you use your influence with Mr. Warnock?
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 1:21 PM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    the regular InDesign incorporated ME

    a technician's fantasy only, but a very poor marketing decision, as is obvious to a knowledgeable business person.

    btw, dov is a brilliantv person, but his logic in his arguments is weak. stay tuned for answers to his questions, one by one.

    if afterward everybody would agree but Dov, it would look poorly on him, as his emotions ruled over better judgement. however, i believe it won't be the case.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 6:30 PM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    Irwin,

    Please step back for a moment and look at Dov's post from a purely business standpoint. Dov is correct. As nice as it might be for Adobe to provide the resources, it is simply not Adobe's place in the market, and it would compete directly with some of its customers.

    Neil
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 6:37 PM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    > But what I don't understand is why Adobe, a public nonsectarian company, should somehow as a "meaningful goodwill gesture ... help sponsor the creation of all these classic holy books using Adobe's software."

    The end result would be a tangible testimony that the Adobe graphic art software accomplish a massive task of historical proportions. The Talmud is the most massive set of knowledge books, representing much of the body of Jewish wisdom that was ever created, containing more material than even Encyclopedia Britanica. According to Jewish tradition it is the Bible explained and a whole lot more.

    >This would put Adobe in direct competition with some of its customers who do this for a living.

    Nobody is currently using Adobe software to create a new edition of the Talmud. So, it is not harming any customers.

    >Plus, we have a hard enough time just getting enough resources to get our software developed, tested, debugged, and supported.

    This is a very poor explanation which degrades Adobe's own markleting literature.

    (Maybe someday we'll actually be able to integrate InDesign ME's support of R-to-L languages into the mainline InDesign code and not have to have a separate edition whenever you want to use Ivrit for even part of a document!)

    This is counter to any marketing sense, as no one would purchase an extra copy of the stand InDesign, but reduce to zero InDesign ME sales.

    >And if we did all the classic Jewish holy books, why shouldn't be also do those for the Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, etc.? This really isn't Adobe's current business nor a business that we want to enter. That's what are customers are best at.

    Not correct. First, there are different versions of accepted Koran text. Its size is not massive. Adil Awalli of Ready Set Go in London has a superior product for the Koran that makes InDesign look inferior.

    Similarly, the Bible is a fraction in size of the Talmud, even including Hebrew Tanach, which Adobe customers are doing.

    Therefore, only the Talmud is the choice subject for all different reasons.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 6:42 PM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    > Irwin,

    Please step back for a moment and look at Dov's post from a purely business standpoint. Dov is correct. As nice as it might be for Adobe to provide the resources, it is simply not Adobe's place in the market, and it would compete directly with some of its customers.

    Neil,

    I humbly disagree with Dov's reasoning, with all due respect.

    No customer would be harmed financially if Adobe created the Adobe Edition of the Talmud. On the contrary, the various editions of the Talmud are being poorly created using non-Adobe dedicated custom software. This infers that InDesign is not capable of doing this massive historic project.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 7:41 PM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    > Nobody is currently using Adobe software to create a new edition of the Talmud. So, it is not harming any customers.

    Who says? I'm not in a position to disclose more information, but I can say for a fact that this statement is not true.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 7:47 PM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    >On the contrary, the various editions of the Talmud are being poorly created using non-Adobe dedicated custom software. This infers that InDesign is not capable of doing this massive historic project.

    Again not true. Today editions of the Talmud are being created in Tag which has been designed to do such work and is far superior to InDesign in this particular respect. The results are absolutely fantastic.

    Secondly, you have to recognise InDesign's limitations it's great for something but not for others.

    Thirdly, Adobe's job is to create amazing software, not become typesetters. They create tools for typesetters. I'm not sure why you would think it's the job of Adobe to typeset anything be it a novel or the Talmud.
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 7:52 PM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    >Not correct. First, there are different versions of accepted Koran text. Its size is not massive. Adil Awalli of Ready Set Go in London has a superior product for the Koran that makes InDesign look inferior.

    >Similarly, the Bible is a fraction in size of the Talmud, even including Hebrew Tanach, which Adobe customers are doing.

    >Therefore, only the Talmud is the choice subject for all different reasons.

    Sorry, I fail to see the logic. You are saying because Ready Set Go typeset a Qoran, therefore Adobe should typeset a Talmud? I don't really understand why RSG typeset a Qoran, but perhaps this was to prove that RSG can do this. However, there is only one set text of the Talmud so if Adobe were to do this, then yes, it would be in direct competition with it's clients, but again the question must be asked, Why? Why should Adobe typeset anything? Indesign is a proven product. The fact that I can typeset the Koren Tanakh in it without even thinking about it proves the point. What has InDesign got to prove?
     
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    Apr 30, 2008 9:01 PM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    Irwin,
    >The end result would be a tangible testimony that the Adobe graphic art software accomplish a massive task of historical proportions. The Talmud is the most massive set of knowledge books, representing much of the body of Jewish wisdom that was ever created, containing more material than even Encyclopedia Britanica.

    I appreciate the possible implication of such an endeavor. But it is not where Adobe should be expending its resources. Adobe is primarily a software developer, and a good one at that. As has been said, it is not a typesetter/printer.

    I'm afraid that you are looking at the emotional aspects of the project, and not the end result. Although there certainly would be sincere appreciation for such an effort from a niche community, from a larger business perspective, it just is not a sound investment of Adobe's time and money. Return on such an investment would be (to be honest) minimal, regardless of the good press it might garner in this area.

    Adobe's resources should be focused on Adobe's raison d'être -- software development, workflows and interfaces.

    Neil
     
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    May 1, 2008 5:46 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    Neil,

    Thank you for your caring and thoughtful response.

    Now, your reasoning has shifted here, even though the underlying sentiment response has been consistent. I believes the points of the issue can be logically addressed, and a different conclusion derifed, this though is closer to a case of "you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink".

    My nature is to persist until I overcome even where the odds indicate failure to succeed, but I am preoccupied with other matters now. Hence, I will respond later.

    Irwin
     
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    May 1, 2008 6:45 AM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    Goodness me Irwin, you are a persistent fellow. How about we say it like this:

    Adobe isn't in that business.

    Dave
     
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    May 1, 2008 3:31 PM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    > Nobody is currently using Adobe software to create a new edition of the Talmud. So, it is not harming any customers.

    > Who says? I'm not in a position to disclose more information, but I can say for a fact that this statement is not true.

    There is a clear and open contradiction here. Either, yes, Adobe InDesign is the superior typesetting program, ideal to produce this massive project,
    or,
    no, Adobe InDesign is a second rate typesetting program (unlike Adobe would like us to believe), not ideal to produce this massive project.

    Here, it must be the best thing since the invention of the wheel, as it has in deed been selected over TAG for this massive project.

    I believe Raphael is saying a bahbah-mahseh, an expression in Yiddish for wishful thinking. And InDesign ME is heads and shoulders more superior to TAG, and is worthy more than Quark or Ready, Set, Go, to create a new ever-lasting edition of the Talmud.
     
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    May 1, 2008 3:36 PM   in reply to (Tom_Fussy)
    No, it is Yiddish for a "grandmother's tale" ...

    - Dov

    PS: Adobe is not going to sponsor a Talmud Typesetting project in InDesign. This thread is now ended ... Sof Pasuk!
     
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    Apr 4, 2013 2:35 AM   in reply to Dov Isaacs

    You can find hebrew fonts in many Israeli site just search in hebrew. "גופן בעברית".

    By the way check out this site for shabbat times in Israeli cities:

    http://shabbat-times.co.il the site is in hebrew.

     
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    Jul 10, 2013 10:06 AM   in reply to Dov Isaacs

    Very Informational. I  am having trouble typing right to left in Illustrator, I have to input everything backwards. Is there any way that you can help me.

     

    Thanks

     
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    Jul 10, 2013 12:27 PM   in reply to engel1196

    The newer versions of the Creative Suite/Creative Cloud applications have a Hebrew version as well as a version with English UI but also Hebrew language support!

     

              - Dov

     
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