has already gone to the Archives, where it is in danger of going to the limbus in the near future.
I still think that this is an important issue, and still wait to see any improvement in those forums showing that the messages by Pierre and myself on the subject have not fallen in a void. Although we both value and thank Neil Keller for his attempts to get some reaction in higher quarters, his attempts have unfortunately been a failure.
It is pathetic to see pages in the forums in Spanish with templates that are written in a mixture of English and a very bad Spanish. It is even more pathetic that JC stopped more than a year ago feeling authorized to introduce any non trivial change to improve this situation. The worst part is however to feel that there is no one listening, or at least willing to admit that there might be problems in those forums.
Thanks ramon for keeping this issue alive.
I tried to contact one of the persons listed on the French site of Adobe, and sadly received no answer.
Personnally, I find this sad as a good and active user to user forum could be a nice incentive for somebody to buy a program that he does not know: having a lot of knowledgeable users that are willing to help you learn an application is a big plus.
I don't understand how it comes that the second largest software manufacturer is letting some inexpensive advertizement unnatended.
If the forum was monitored, had moderators, a lot of active members, I'm sure that the specialized press would talk about it.
I'll have to google that one, but guess that it is a joke.
From another thread, OZpeter said:
> "Different kettle of fish, Claudio - one is (I think) a matter of changing the software, assuming that can be done and that there is a budget for it. The other is a matter of policy and management and human resourcing - or so it would seem to me - possibly therefore more complex in reality. "
Human Resourcing? for volunteers? I'm sure that two posters in this thread would volunteer... ;)
It has been implied several times in these forums that it would seem that I am postulating for host/moderator in the Spanish forums. I have also posted several times that I am not. What I have volunteered for is for clening up and making more operational that forum, and in fact managed to do some decent work on that line during the first months of 2004, before the takeover by the undisclosed European Adobe branch in middle 2004. Just before the takeover, I had sent JC a proposal for a new, less clutered and more functional entry page, which even included a link to instructions for newcomers, but this doesn't seem to have been considered. At least, I have no evidence that it has even been read after all these more than twelve months.
Yes, the matter does seem to be a little more complex than a small change in the software to which Ozpeter was refering in that other thread. Maybe Ramón is right, and the French, German and Spanish forums are now in charge of the Right Royal Duchy of Ruritania branch ... Although, on second thoughts, a lot of things happened there, and nothing happens in these forums.
Well, no wonder he is also exasperated: his hands are tied. And thanks for remembering; pity that there seems to be no one with the power to act listening.
I most certainly don't like to act as a forum cop, but someone has to do it while the forums in Spanish have no hosts/moderators. And, just in case, I'll repeat here what I have said several times in several of these forums: I'm not postulating to become a host/moderator, and have no intention of becoming one. I am although willing to collaborate in the planning and implementation of a better designed and more functional site in Spanish.
I forgot to say something very important yesterday. The last sentence of my message, ending in "...a more functional site in Spanish.", should read "...a more functional site in Spanish, written fully and correctly in Spanish."
As I have said several times, I have absolutely no desire to act as a forum cop in the Forums in Spanish, but someone has to do it. Yesterday I had to waste a lot of time to stop one of those dog fights that sometimes take place when two quick-tempered persons frequent the same forum. It wasn't pleasant, and I don't know how many more times I will do it, if I do it again. I was on the verge of asking for the thread to be made read only, but realized in time that one of the fighters was so mad that he would have then just opened a new one to continue with his battle. Which, by that time that I managed to put off the fire, had gotten very one sided.
The problem is neither new nor unknown to Adobe, so I find it sad that the level of those forums has to depend on the self regulating powers of their users. I, for one, do not wish to see them decay into another Lounge, but in Spanish, and resent having to assume a responsibility for which I have not volunteered.
Dave, and all others who may object the phrase you quote,
I apologize for my careless generalization, although I would hope that anyone who knows me through the forums, as well as anyone who has followed in this forum discussions about things happening in the Lounge, would understand what I was trying to say, and didn't for the sake of brevity. For the rest, let me make it perfectly clear that I was specifically refering to the dog fights occurring in
some threads of the Lounge, ending in people banned temporarily or definitively, in threads made read only, and even in eliminated threads. Although I don't visit the Lounge regularly, I do know that there are there many very interesting, useful, amusing, and even perfectly neutral topics there, which were not in my mind when I wrote what I wrote.
It would be a pity if the focus of this discussion was changed by this blunder of mine. Or if yours is the only comment my last message deserves. I already feel very discouraged and unwilling to continue with what seems to be my lonely campaign to improve the forums in Spanish, which in all these months has received nothing but the moral support of a handful of participants.
Claudio, I'm not a Spanish speaker, but on principle I am very glad you keep trying to get those forums moderated. Spanish and French speakers (and quite possibly speakers of other languages) should have this facility, properly administered.
And I'm glad you pointed out the Lounge isn't all bad ;)
Kath, thanks for your symphaty. My clarification was mere justice. I go to the Lounge every now and then, for cultural rasons, so I know the complains here do not reflect what happens in most of the threads there. As a scientist, I do not like generalizations, precisely because they may be grossly unjust, as in this case.
I wish that some of the persons who have the power to make things move in these forums would be a tenth as symphatetic as you.
Pierre, I very much doubt that the two of us can achieve any more than Neil Keller has. He has said more than once that he has contacted and informed people who should take care of these matters, but all he has got is the same than you have: no answer.
I find peculiar the secrecy sorrounding those in charge of the forums in our two languages. I can think of no rational reason for this secrecy, excepting pehaphs that maybe they most definitely do not want to be identified, or contacted in any way. Let's leave it at the Grand Duchy of Fenwick, as Ramón suggested (and not Ruritania, as I wrongly quoted). Although I tend to see more rationality in the actions of the people of Fenwick that here; at least they
As to the German forum, I don't know who is in charge, but just a glance at its main page makes it obvious that they are luckier than us.
You bring a welcome breath of joviality into a deadly serious thread. I appreciate it, because it makes me feel not so low. You remind me that there are in life more important things that a couple of completely unattended forums. Perhaps I should devote more time to those things and not waste any more in something which has looked from the beginning as a lost battle and a lost war. JC was the first one to try, more than a year ago, and he also got and gets "no answer".
On the other hand, I have my doubts about how valuable your contributions are to our cause. Maybe you are just giving "them" (whomever they are) an excuse to continue evading the issue.
Thank you for your support to our cause. Brief, precise, and to the point. I'm sure that now "they" will not be able to continue evading the issue.
Don't you feel like learning some Spanish or French to be able to post in a forum where the only control is that of a handful of fellow users with no power to censor, ban, make read only, or delete threads? You probably wouldn't mind its cluttered main page, its strange mixture of languages in many of its pages, the far from perfect Spanish of others, the missing buttons, and other such trivia.
They probably are -or nearly- for the fairly large number of Spanish speaking users of Adobe products who don't know any English. As those forums are now, it would be exagerating to say they are no good, but they are certainly in much need of many improvements. This is probably one of the causes of the still low although steadily increasing number of visitors. You may not understand this, but there are some of us who think that stopping to use them is not a solution, but trying to help in improving them is. For this, we don't need the kind of help you are giving.
If Adobe eliminated their forums in English, certainly it wouldn't be as if they were cutting off water or electricity. But I'm sure there would be quite a few English speaking users of their products who would feel it was nearly as bad.
By the way, I don't
need to use the forums in Spanish; I get all the help I require in their English version.
Yes, Claudio summarized the situation perfectly. He and I are lucky to know English well enough so that we can get all the help we want in the English speaking forums.
Halas, there are a lot of Spanish and French speaking users out there that do not speak another language than theirs (I'm sure that a lot of Americans can relate ;) ). Don't they deserve the same service everyone gets in the "regular" forums?
That's a bit harsh. Adobe have created forums for use but without supervision. You only have to look at the mud-slinging that occasionally goes on in the lower depths of the English-speaking forums to realise that this is a recipe for disaster.
Thanks, Nigel, for thinking about the situation before throwing such advice as "don't use the forums" or "create your own". The lack of supervision is just one of the aspects I habe been asking to be improved.
As far as I can remember been told by people in the know nearly two years ago, the forums in Spanish were created as a service for a small group of Spanish speaking users in some Central American country. When I discovered them almost by chance, I found a site with very bad translations of the original English text in some places, and no translations at all in others, and that was hardly used at all because it was not known or publicized. When trying to find what could be done to improve the site, I was offered the chance of collaborating with the person in charge.
After trying to get in touch with that person for a couple of months (I never did), it turned out that that person wasn't really in charge, that he didn't know or use Adobe products, that he was an extremely busy man in his country, and had only offered to collaborate in this as a personal favour to someone with some influence here, but wasn't really interested in the matter.
I then turned to JC, who had also offered to help in improving the forums in Spanish. His response was very efficient as usual, and we slowly but steadily introduced important changes in the site, which make it much more easier to use now than when I discovered it. Apparently, when the site improved, Adobe Spain began publicising it on its site, and the number of visitors began to increase considerably.
I understand that in the meantime the French and German forums were created, both in a much better shape that the original Spanish one I knew. I also understand that in middle 2004, some still undisclosed European branch of Adobe took at least the French and Spanish forums officially in charge -just by looking at the main page of the German ones, I would guess they were luckier. Everything was stopped then; no more changes. I had just sent JC a proposition for a new, less cluttered, more rational entry page that included a link to instructions for newcomers, that he sent to the new authorities. I understand that even him doesn't know if my proposition has been read.
It is true that in these many months, JC and I have introduced some very minor changes here and there, but his hands are tied and we can do no more than that. Frome some things JC has told me, I understand that at least some pages in the Spanish forums use very old templates, which would explain the lack of some functionalities that are present in all the other forums. For example, there is no "Subscribe to this discussion by email" button at the bottom of the new message box.
So what am I asking for? First of all, I am not asking for any "right"; I think that Pierre's phrase there was unfortunate, as it gave people who don't try to understand the problem, who have nothing constructive to offer, and that in my opinion should take their witty remarks elsewhere, a chance to continue ridiculizing a situation that obviously doesn't affect them and doesn't even interest them.
Perhaps I could sumarize my requests like this. If that unnamed Adobe branch doesn't have the funds, the will, or the intention of doing something to improve the forums in Spanish, why not just leave JC, with the aid of people like me, to at least make the site functional, and have all the pages written in proper Spanish?
In my opinion, doing nothing in fourteen months, preventing anything to be done, and simply ignoring the free help that is been offered is not a wise course of action. Plus, of course,
>Adobe have created forums for use but without supervision. You only have to look at the mud-slinging that occasionally goes on in the lower depths of the English-speaking forums to realise that this is a recipe for disaster.
I would think that the best possible thing that could happen would be to find someone that spends time in the spanish forums that has an appropriate temperment that the host team would consider to be a good candidate for joining the team. Until and unless someone is in there with host rights, not much will happen. I've made my efforts in the past, and gave up any desire to help out due to some difficult temperments in people I was trying to work with. For better or for worse, that's where I'm at with it.