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Photoshop 10bit support

Oct 15, 2009 12:14 AM

Hello!

 

There are 16 and 32bit modes in PS, so my question is: can PS display 10bit color depth per channel if all other components support it? (i.e. Windows 7, ATI FirePro graphics card,10bit monitor connected via Displayport)

If not, will there be an update/plugin? Will the next version of PS support it?

 

I'm thinking about upgrading. Wouldn't make much sense if the software doesn't support it…

 

 

Thanks in advance

Hermann

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 15, 2009 1:18 AM   in reply to wabbi2434

    What would you require that functionality for? 16pc and 32bpc already far exceed those specs and even though they are dithered down to be displayed on your LDR devices, that should be more than enough to work with. Additionally, 10/12/14bpc support would only make sense, if you worked with a file format that also stores that info natively as well as requiring a whole lot of other magic in the color profile engine, the print engine, filter handling and so on. So by all means, this is much more complex than just shuffling around a few bits and bytes in the display routines, which in turn means it's not coming any time soon. Definitely not for CS5 and most likely not for CS6, either. You have to understand that any software vendor will have to weigh the development effort agains how many users would actually benefit from such a feature and currently that is probably only a fraction of a percent, so it is not a must-have feature. This may change as wider gamut devices become more affordable and thus more widespread used as well as OSs supporting them, but for the time being it is something most people have no need for.

     

    Mylenium

     
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    Oct 15, 2009 1:41 AM   in reply to Mylenium

    i think that he might be talking about output, support for 10bit monitors. The answer is no, Photoshop doesn't currently support that

    http://forums.adobe.com/message/2034801#2034801

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 27, 2009 3:37 AM   in reply to wabbi2434

    I`d also like to see 10bit display output in CS5. I have the impression that 10bit displays will be affordable soon. Some years ago a wide gamut display was extremely expensive. Now you can get very affordable Wide gamut displays. Same will happen with 10bit displays. There is the HP Dreamcolor and also 2 new Eizos for around 2000.-. Not cheap, but not totally out of reach. Would not surprise me, if you can get a 10bit display for 1000.- in one or two years from now. At this time many people will use PS CS5. So it should support 10bit display output.

    I once had a small program that simulated 10bit output via temporal dithering (or so). I tested many pictures. Some of the pics showed (very little) banding in certain areas (in PS and in the other program (when 10bit dithering was disabled). But you never knew wether the banding was in the file or because 8bit output was the limiting factor. When I enabled the 10bit output, you could see that in some of the files the banding went away. In other files it did not. So it was clear what was the reason for the banding. Sometimes the files, sometimes the 8bit display output.

    So if you want to judge your files on a very critical level 10bit output would really help.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 27, 2009 12:13 PM   in reply to wabbi2434

    I told "A file format caller Kodak CINEON is a 10 bit" 

     

    I review it....3 channels together compose 10 bit in CINEON..

     

    Message was edited by: Gustavo Del Vechio

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 27, 2009 12:05 PM   in reply to klsteven-vBdprK

    Photoshop can't support greater than 8 bit/channel output yet.

    We tried, and the APIs still had problems.  We're working with the vendors to resolve those problems. (and trying to find good displays to test with that *really* output 10 bits or more per channel).

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 31, 2010 5:20 AM   in reply to Chris Cox

    Chris, please, can you present actual state of Adobe aproach to implement 30bit color depth viewing in Photoshop CS5? I am writing little article about whole 30-bit viewing situation and it will be fine to have right information. Thanx in advance.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 31, 2010 5:40 AM   in reply to Mikrotom

    In addition to Mikrotoms request I would like to know, what would be needed to display 10 bit, IF CS5 (or later) would be able to do it.

    What OS, what graphics card (only Quadro, or also "Consumer"-card), what monitor? Would this Eizo do it:

    http://www.eizo.de/monitore/color-graphic-lcds/24-zoll/CG243W.html

    According to specs it can display 10bit, although only by dithering.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 31, 2010 6:57 AM   in reply to klsteven-vBdprK

    This is really easy nowadays. Windows 7 has native support for 30-bit color depth, nVidia produces complete row of Quadro FX card with 30-bit color depth (even ATI does with FirePro cards), drivers are working good, DisplayPort can transfer 30-bit content to displays and HP/EIZO/others made lot of LCDs with native 30-bit support. The one and only missing piece of chain is SW application wich will be capable to utilize new API functions and manage out true 30-bit per channel output...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 31, 2010 8:16 AM   in reply to wabbi2434

    Since the ability to detect color differences varies greatly between humans anything above 24 bit is a waste of time. Unless a woman is a tetrachromat.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 31, 2010 10:01 AM   in reply to dec9

    It would not make much sense to have 10-12-14 bit functionality for monitor purposes if the other output devices didn't. Banding for instance. How much aggravation would be encountered to see banding in a print which isn't present on screen? I would want to be forewarned.

     

    It would be interesting if klsteven could print examples of both images displaying banding in 8 bit but certain images in 10 bit did not band, on a 16 bit printer. I believe canon has 16 bit printers.

     

    Banding is my #1 concern these days. Agressive moves with Shadow/Highlight followed by agressive moves in Black and White produce serious banding (as well as other noise components, but the banding is a deal breaker). I could, of course, test it myself and see if the 16 bit file which shows banding on screen and in print shows on the 16 bit printer. Probably will.

     
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    Jan 31, 2010 10:04 AM   in reply to dec9

    This is common mistake. You definitely need much more than 256 color steps in each channel. Creative photography in BW usually produces lot of banding in smooth transitions between black-greys-whites...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 31, 2010 10:33 AM   in reply to Mikrotom

    Well, I wouldn't call it a mistake!

     

    I've explored it sufficiently that I have tentatively ruled out equipment problems, so it comes down to limits of processes.

     

    I first encountered it years ago with a scanned image of a mountain reflected in a mirrored surface of still water. The banding in the sky's reflection blew me away.

     

    It's at least one of my legacy images that cannot be adequately handled in digital form. Curiously, returning to that site at the appropriate time with a digital camera did not show banding until I made the conversions. Then it was the sky that banded!

     

    I have some workarounds but they do not always work.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 31, 2010 12:02 PM   in reply to wabbi2434

    If the reviews can be trusted for the Eizo. I did not look in the Eizo forums for the real story.

     

    I did check out the new Dell U2410, just for the heck of it, and the reviewers love it and it has no problems. However, in the Dell forums there are all sorts of Dithering problems and Photoshop problems found in a 7 page thread with the ICM that Dell has duplicated. A fix is in the works. So everything a person reads on the net is not exactly fuzzy kittens.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 31, 2010 12:44 PM   in reply to dec9

    Test, test test!

     
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    Jan 31, 2010 7:43 PM   in reply to Hudechrome-sd9sPI

    Ha, you love it don't cha.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 1, 2010 12:24 AM   in reply to Hudechrome-sd9sPI

    It cant be tested any way, because there is not such a application with abilities to display 30-bit content... It is not just Adobe who is little bit behind HW. Even ACDSee and all of other viewers does not displays content using real 30-bit output :-(

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 1, 2010 12:22 AM   in reply to klsteven-vBdprK

    List of current LCDs with true 30-bit display abilities (input, inner calculations and panel):

     

    Hewlett Packard - LP2480zx DreamColor (24″, S-IPS, 1920 × 1200, 100% Adobe RGB, 12-bit LUT, DP, LED)

     

    Eizo - SX2262W (22″, PVA, 1920 × 1200, 95% Adobe RGB, 12-bit LUT, 16-bit, DP, CCFL)

     

    Eizo - SX2462W (24″, H-IPS, 1920 × 1200, 98% Adobe RGB, 12-bit LUT, 16-bit, DP, CCFL)

     

    Eizo - CG243W (24″, H-IPS, 1920 × 1200, 98% Adobe RGB, 12-bit LUT, 16-bit, DP, CCFL)

     

    Eizo - CG232W (22,5″, S-IPS, 1920 × 1200, 97% Adobe RGB, 12-bit LUT, 16-bit, HD-SDI, CCFL)

     

    Dell - UltraSharp U2711 (27″, IPS,  2560 x 1440, 98% Adobe RGB, 12-bit LUT, 16-bit, DP, CCFL)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 1, 2010 5:35 AM   in reply to Mylenium

    Mylenium wrote:

     

    What would you require that functionality for? 16pc and 32bpc already far exceed those specs and even though they are dithered down to be displayed on your LDR devices, that should be more than enough to work with.

     

     

    Mylenium

     

    Opinions vary on how many levels the human visual system can distinguish. 8 bpc may be sufficient to prevent banding, but barely so. However, 10 bpc on the system and software side would allow an extra two bits for calibration. Some high end monitors do have 12 bit LUTs for this purpose, but does it make sense to have two LUTs?

     
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    Feb 1, 2010 7:47 AM   in reply to Bill_Janes

    For me, having 2 LUT monitors, would be a waste of money for what I do.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 1, 2010 8:37 AM   in reply to dec9

    Love testing is an oxymoron. Ask any test engineer!

     

    As for untestable, it's a matter of perspective. And ingenuity.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 12, 2010 11:20 AM   in reply to wabbi2434

    So, what is the situation in CS5? Does anybody already knows? Still no 10-bit per channel color output?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 12, 2010 11:27 AM   in reply to Mikrotom

    Nope, still no support

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 12, 2010 1:22 PM   in reply to Zeno Bokor

    Actually, the 10 bit/channel display path is working quite well in CS5 - on cards and displays that support it.

     

    Again, we've been working with the manufacturers for a while to get it working...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 12, 2010 2:05 PM   in reply to Chris Cox

    Chris, that great news. I guess, you should make that public so that users know this as a CS5 feature. Do you know wether the new Fermi cards will output 10bit or will Quadro cards be required? And what about ATI?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 12, 2010 2:30 PM   in reply to klsteven-vBdprK

    I don't have all the details on hand.  We should be documenting the requirements for 10 bit display when we get closer to shipping.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2010 3:04 AM   in reply to Chris Cox

    Chris,

     

    I still couldn`t find anything in the system requirements for PS CS5 for 10bit output. Where will I be able to find details?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2010 3:19 AM   in reply to klsteven-vBdprK

    Well great. I just bought a NEC P221 because I didn't see any need to spend fancy money on hardware that couldn't live up to its potential. While the NEC has a 10 bit internal LUT, it has only DVI connections and so is doomed to receive 8 bit input forever.

     

    Still, it's the nicest monitor I've had that wasn't a CRT.

     

    Now, to recap. Win7 has high bit capability and CS5 apparently has it under the hood somewhere. So, THIS generation of hardware and software finally gets us there?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 29, 2010 3:34 PM   in reply to shoot me now-d3u3se

    there's support with Firepro from ATI: http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/ATI_FirePro_Adobe_10-Bit_FAQ_030910.pd f

     

    It works with CS5 on Win7.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 29, 2010 5:21 PM   in reply to klsteven-vBdprK

    We haven't documented it yet - we're still working on it. (yes, there are more complications than you could imagine)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2010 1:27 AM   in reply to SDHD2010

    SDHD,

    That PDF is very interesting. Did you try it with this card and CS5?

    Do you also have a link to something similar from nvidia?

    I`m wondering why this feature is only available to the pro cards. I guess, it`s not expensive.

    Some day I guess it will be standard to all cards.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2010 2:04 AM   in reply to wabbi2434

    I asked Adobe support about 10bit/colour channel support and the Nvidia Quadro FX1800 and they referred me to the after effects OpenGL supported card document.

     


    www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/opengl.html

     

    It does not mention 10bit/colour channel at all.  Why can't we get a straight answer? like "no", "yes", "we are still working on it" rather than pretend answers?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2010 9:12 AM   in reply to wabbi2434

    Hello, I am new to the forum in terms of posting.   I usually only read the responses but 10-bit support peaked my interest to the point that I felt like posting.  I apologize if the question is stupid but I have had this lingering question for a long time

     

     

    My understanding is that to get 10-bit color a lot things need to come together

     

    The underlying OS has to support it

    The Video Card needs to support it and you need use DisplayPort

    The Monitor has to have a 10-LUT (or in the case of the new NEC PA24W, a 3-D LUT) and supports wide gamut aRGB

    The Video Driver has to support it so that software can be written against it

    Finally, Adobe PS has to write software maybe even specific to a card/driver to display the information correctly

     

    Then, I assume, so that all this work is not lost, I assume you need a 16bit printer driver as well to complete the workflow (which I believe Epson has at least on the Mac but I do know that Vista/Win7 does support)

     

    So, given the above and given that many tutorials today prior to CS5 say "Work in aRGB or ProPhoto", how does one do that if all we have is 8bit sRGB monitors?  Can we possibly see the difference?

     

    I am just trying to understand how tutorials and books tell us to use wide gamut color spaces when we all have sRGB and PS only to this point only supports sRGB and we only just now have the possiblity of getting 10-bit wide gamut support.

     

    I am obviously missing something or don't understand what is happening under the hood.

     

    Hopefully my response is not stupid and someone more knowledgeable can explain.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2010 3:00 PM   in reply to laglaph

    Read what I already said.

     

    Yes, "we're still working on it".

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2010 2:59 AM   in reply to Chris Cox

    I can confirm that PS5 still does not displays pictures in 10-bit per channel format. Its a shame. Once again SW is far behind HW...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2010 3:33 AM   in reply to Mikrotom

    Mikrotom,

     

    which graphicscard, OS, monitor and monitorconnection (displayport?) did you use? And how could you tell, which bitdepth is displayed?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2010 6:08 AM   in reply to klsteven-vBdprK

    Tested it on nVidia Quadro FX1800 + EIZO SX2462W connected via Displayport + Windows 7 Professional 64bit + actual drivers and patches.

     

    I simply draw a grayscale gradient and can clearly see steps /banding/ between each color. When i switch mode of file to 8-bit per color, the picture remains the same

     
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