The newest panasonic camcorder, the TM700 records video at 1080/60p in an MPEG-4 format. Can CS5 import these files, and if so, what would the logical output format be? 720/60p perhaps, or can you output 1920x1080/60hz progressive? I believe the files have an MTS extension but since AVCHD doesn't allow 60p it's a sort of non-standard format.
According to camcorderinfo.com few editors will accept the Panasonic files, but the quality of the footage is significantly better than the cameras 1920x1080/60i AVCHD mode.
I'm wondering if you could include clips from this camcorder in a CS5 project, and if so what output resolution/framerate would make the most sense (for computer playback I imagine, I don't think Blu-Ray or AVCHD discs support 1080/60p data).
Seems like a great new camera feature, but it's not clear to me how you would distribute the final edited file in such a way as to take advantage of the 60hz progressive nature of the original footage.
CS5 can easily import and edit these files, in contrast to the Panasonic DMR-BS 850 from the same company, that can't handle this material.
As for export, your choices are limited, because of the non-standard format.
I have recently updated to CS5 master collection because I had the same problem with 1080 50p footage shot by HDC-sd700 or TM700.
I was going mad by transcoding all the material in ProRes 422 HD or other suitable formats for final Cut Pro. I used ClipWarp or Aquafadas Videopier HD. I luckily solved this problem natively with Premiere Pro CS5 and Encore CS5. Here I could edit in realtime all the 1080 50p footage ,do the soundtrack ,work in PS an AE and have the timeline updated in Premiere. The final time to prepare the Blu Ray disc was very fast too. Much faster than compressor. I am sure that you won't have any problems with 60p footage too. When you export to Blu Ray you can choose 1080 30p or 60p and the desired bitrate in encore directly. I saw no difference and no loss quality from my blu ray disc to my camera footage via HDMI.
You can't choose 1080/60p in the H.264 Blu-Ray section, only the H.264 section. I don't think blue ray supports 1080/60p regardless, it's not in the spec. Just 1080/24p and 1080/60i I believe, and perhaps 1080/30p.
When you choose just regular H.264 output you can make a .mp4 files that are 1920x1080/60p but I think you would have to play them back as computer files, you couldn't burn those to a Blu-Ray format disc without transcoding them to some blu-ray compatible frame rate/format.
I can create 1080/60p H.264 .mp4 files using CS5, but I can't find anything that plays them well. My PC doesn't seem to, the file "skips" a lot. I tried to play them on a PS3 but they seem to playback at half speed, the sound is normal but the video portion plays back in slow motion.
I'm not sure you can export 1080/60p in any format that anyone could play correctly. You can create 1080/30p files from your 1080/60p source but I'm not sure that would look any better than 1080/30p from 1080/30p or 1080/60i sources.
You can also create 1080/60i output from the 1080/60p source but I'm not sure you're better off than if you just shot in 1080/60i to begin with.
You can create 720/60p files and those would have the fewest artifacts I imagine, and be far more compatible across the board I believe. Perhaps I will try that option next and see if that works out better, compatibility wise.
After some tests I think the best solution for delivery is to export on Blu Ray disc , I am using H.264 1080/25p at maximum quality. I can play mp4 1080/50p on my mac without any problems and I honestly cannot tell the difference betweeen the Blu Ray disc and the mp4. I think that the output to Blu Ray has some limitations due to compatibiltiy issuses. Films are usually 1080 24p-
After some tests I think the best solution for delivery is to export on Blu Ray disc , I am using H.264 1080/25p at maximum quality.
Which is not supported on BR, thanks to Sony. Only 24p, but no 25p. For PAL countries only 25i or 24p.
Does anyone know for certain what frame rates/formats are officially support for Blu-Ray discs?
I think it's just 1080/60i, and 1080/24p and 1080/50i. Can you put 720/60p or 720/50p files on a blu-ray disc and have players recognize them and play them correctly?
I don't think 1080/30p is even a legal frame rate format for official Blu-ray discs.
Thanks for the link, that clears things up a lot. If I were shooting 1080/60p I would be sorely tempted to output the project as 720/60p then. I think overall that would give the fewest artifacts and cleanest output. If I weren't concerned with motion etc, I might just shoot 1080/60i and then output it at 1080/60i.
Just some pointers for owners of Panasonic's new top consumer camcorders.
For playback on a computer, having DivX installed and using Windows Media Player should give you some good results. That goes for almost any 1080 50p or 60p codec. As for the PS3, it plays back native files flawlessly as long as you don't have any picture adjustments enabled. The PS3 will even playback edited 1080 60p Microsoft VC-1 files. Now as far as H.264 files from Main Concepts, disable all of the PS3's picture adjustments and tell us if you notice the playback quality getting improved. Hopefully Premiere will add an export to M2T in the future.
I'm having some exporting issues with CS4 at the moment. When I tried to export to 1080 60p using MPEG2 as the codec, I'm told that my settings are wrong. Anyone knows the exact settings I should be using?. When exporting to H,264 using Main Concepts, everything is fine. How do I get an option to export to VC-1?
I do plan on upgrading Production Premium to CS5 possibly when I get my next GI Bill payment.
I do not own the TM700 by the way (I wish I did!), I'm at least trying to gain some knowledge so that I can possibly help people.
I just imported MTS files from Panasonic TM700 on Premiere CS5 to edit. Even though I had to convert a different format before import on Final Cut to edit 1080/60p, I did not need to do that for Premiere. However, I could not import the MTS files as 60 or 59 fps. They automatically became 29 fps.
How did you guys make them like high fps? Also Could you tell me the best sequence setting for 1080/60p? I want to edit as good quality as possible.
Here's what I wrote elsewhere:
In Premiere you have to set it up manually since theirs no preset with the settings already set for you.
In the "New Sequence" Box click on "General"
Under "Editing Mode" choose Desktop
Under "Timebase" choose 59.94
Under "Frame Size" put 1920x1080 Under "Fields" choose "No Fields" (since it's a progressive file)
After those steps, you hit OK, and theirs your 59.94p timeline.
If you want to output back to 1080 60p in Main Concepts H.264, you must first choose level 4.2.
Those steps are for CS4 and I'm assuming it's not that different from CS5.
I've experimented with 1080/60p output quite a bit now. I can't find ANYTHING that will play those files back properly except in WMV format. WMV 1080/60p files are almost useless since they are limited to 8-10 mbps encode rate, meaning tons of artifacting.
I have a very fast PC, and it cannot playback the MP4 files without missing a lot of frames. This is using Windows Media Player, Nero, and VLC. Perhaps Splash by Mirillis would work but I don't want to install it on this machine.
The PS3, regardless of settings, will not playback 1080/60p files properly. It plays the video in slow motion, half speed, so the audio finishes in the correct time while the video continues to play long after.
Playing back WMV files on the PS3 works but, again so much artifacting due to the low bitrate there's no point.
The best option I've found that preserves the great motion characteristics of 1080p is to create a 1080/60p project and then output the final file in 720/60p format. EVERYTHING plays 720/60p files back fine, PS3, Blu-Ray, all PC's with all players etc.
That's the best way to preserve the advantages of 1080/60p while maintaining compatibility with at least some playback devices.
On most people's PS3's, theirs no problems at all playing back the native 1080 60p files from the TM700 although some formats like Main Concepts H.264 I believe, may have issues.
If you can output to VC-1, you can have a bit rate much higher than 10Mbps and it'll look very good on a PS3 or a computer. I've downloaded a file close to 18Mbps from a user who edited a bunch of 1080 50p clips together. I'm not sure how high the bit rate can go.
One user claims to have exported to MPEG2 at 1080 60p using another editor and hopefully I'll be able to do that with Premiere CS4 and see how's the playback quality on the PS3 is. Having a bite rate of aboutt 40Mbps or a little higher should gaive you a quality close to the original files.
I have an original PS3, with the 60 GB hard drive. Perhaps later ones could play back these files better, but I have the latest firmware updates etc and I've not noticed any differences before.
I am using Premiere Pro CS5 to output these files. I know the original MTS files UNEDITED playback fine, I am trying to find an output file that anything else can play smoothly.
Under the windows media option there is no selector for anything that generates output greater than 10mpbs. What options are you using in the export setting of CS5 to output 1080/60p files that play back smoothly on a PC using Windows media player or Quicktime, and on a PS3?
I am using MAINCONCEPT H.264 to create .mp4 files, which do NOT play back on anything well, and the WIndows Media Option to output 1080/60p files that do playback OK but are limited to 10 mpbs in the export settings.
What settings can I use to get > 10mpbs from a Windows Media file in CS5? Or what export settings are you using to create fairly compatible 1080/60p files that have no significant artifacts?
I'm trying to figure some of those things out myself which is why I'm trying to see if anybody can help out with MPEG2 export and the exporting to VC-1 which allows bit rates higher than 10Mbps. I'm certain I have to download a program in order to export to VC-1 using Premiere.
I tried to play a 1080/60p on my mac pro with no problems . However I think that one of the Blu Ray settings provided by CS5 is more than enough. These camcoders take advantage of filming in 1080/50(or 60p) and the progressive gives a sort of film-grain effect to the movie. When exporting I personally think it is quite irrelevant if1080/25i or 24p is more than enough and preserves the actual quality of the original footage, what I am trying to say is that it is not visible to the human eye. As far as playback is concerned on a computer, the result depends on many factors, including graphic card.
Some of you may be on this thread already but just in case you havn't seen it yet, theirs a computer playback discussion going on at around the bottom of this page:
Is Adobe Premiere CS5 for Mac able to import MTS files from the Panasonic TM700 in the 1080p60 format?
I have tried this with the trial version and the Premiere CS5 says that the format is not supported...
I also tried in a Windows 7 virtual machine with the Adobe Premiere CS5, and it is working. What is going on?
A bug on CS5 for Mac software?
Have anyone tried this on a mac?
There is absolutely no problem in Adobe CS5 Premiere Pro, note that the trial version has only some codecs and limitations on tapless formats, I am importing those files with no problems in the purchased version.To have all the features you will have to buy the products. I am using it in mac environment with all the advantages of outputting to Blu Ray : Remember that when you output to Blu Ray the supported formats are 1080i25 or 1080i30 for players compatibility reason, whether it is progressive or interlaced is based on the original footage.
Yes, I know the HD standards, and I know this is not it. I just had problems importing the files on the trial mac version. Thank you for the feedback. Is there any other "good" program out there that you know (besides premiere) that can work with those files on mac? I'm just trying to explore all possibilities before buying something.
Looks like Panasonic is protecting their AG-HMC40 by cutting off the TM700 AVCHD at 17Mbps, then teasing us with this 28Mbps 60p mts that we can't do anything with. Curse you Panasonic marketing strategists!
Dear Panasonic: If you add 24Mbps AVCHD to the TM700, with 30p and 24p, you will put Canon and Sony out of this prosumer business, you corner the market. Just a thought. And you could do it with a firmware upgrade I bet. Then just figure out some other way to differentiate the HMC40.
Interestingly the camcorderinfo.com review of the TM700 is much better than their review of the HMC40. They didn't like the HMC40 at all.
I've tried using CS4 Media Encoder (MainConcepts) to convert the mts to 1080 30p h264 and I see noticeable blur on movement. 720 60p looks pretty good. 1080 60p is an option also but playback is very jerky.
I'd like to try a 1080 60i output, but MainConcepts doesn't offer that. Why? Just curious.
In general, is there a way to convert 60p to 30p or 24p with minimal loss of quality? I.e. if I could turn the TM700 mts into ProRes 422, even if the 422 file was huge, would that just leave me with the same problem in a different source format? I.e. losing too much quality going to 30p or 24p?
At this point I'm leaning toward the Canon HF S20 because it has the best usable image (24Mbps AVCHD), albeit with crappy low light performance, because I'm not seeing any solutions to this 60p problem.
Just a different thought on an alternative workflow for Final Cut as some people here have referred to and asked about: transcoding the 60p .mts to ProRes422 shows (to my eye) absolutely no loss of quality. (even ProRes LT works well) In FCP going to 30p or 60i is a no-brainer, as you simply drop whole frames or every-other line, and editing in ProRes is very nice and not so CPU demanding. Encoding your final output using x264, with its multitude of quality options to play with, gives great output. (arguably better than MainConcept's H.264) I need to do further tests, but the consensus is that choosing an output bit rate say >= 30Mbps makes it virtually indistinguishable from the original .mts.
Although I haven't tried yet, I understand using Cinetools (part of FCP) you can also get a well-interpolated 24p if desired from 60p. (of course this may not have that "film look" that so many desire, but that is caused by other factors as well)
Eventually I'd like to compare to the Premiere workflow, which is attractive for not requiring 2 conversions. But I must honestly say I'm surprised I don't see a generational loss using Final Cut like I expected - ProRes really works. And the TM700 gives just beautiful footage at 60p!
Ok, that sounds like a solution. I was thinking 60p -> 60i would be a minimal loss of quality, but I don't see any option for that in Adobe/MainConcepts. Right now I'm a PC Adobe guy and not sure I want to make the investment in time and $ to go to the Mac FCP world.
Either way it looks like a lot of transcoding so probably will go to a Core i7 Nvidia box as Adobe's CUDA support makes a large difference there. And that setup is a LOT cheaper on PC (also it's a good excuse for a decent gaming box ;-).
Is there a converter that will do mts to ProRes 422 that utilizes CUDA?
I bought the TM700 and the PS3 250GB (Sony shipped with the latest firmware - for 3D video playback) last week and am looking for advice on which software I should buy for editing the 1080 60p video, and how best to copy to blu-ray in 1080 60p ?
Appreciate if you can provide guidance and ideally some step-by-step instructions.
As mentioned earlier, 1080/60p is not supported on BD or AVCHD media in any way. I would say if you are interested in the motion characteristics of 60p then export everything as 720/60p, that will give you the best motion results.
Otherwise you are stuck with 1080/60i basically, I do not believe 1080/30p is supported on BD or AVCHD media either.
The main reason I would want a TMC700 would be for 1080/60p capture of fast moving birds etc. In that case I would deliver everything as 720/60p since almost all deliverable formats and Pc's support that fine.
If I were just doing regular scenic video etc, I would shoot the material in 1080/60i and use that across the board in editing/delivery. The TMC700 is still a great 1080/60i camcorder that has the bonus of being able to shoot in 1080/60p if you choose to.
Roger & Harm,,,thanks for the quick inputs.
If footage is shot in 1080 60p and delivered in 720 60p, I will still not be able to capture it on blu ray as it does not support 60p, correct ?
Is there any other media that can store/playback 60p ?
Also, the editing software (HD Writer AE 2.1) that came alongwith TM700 can edit and deliver in 1080 60p, but it seems that only the TM700 can playback the footage as it will be 60p............or can it be played back via a fast PC (what would be the minimum configuration) ?
I am not having the above mentioned issues working with cs5 in mac environment , maybe it is the quicktime engine. I work perfectly with footage 1080 50p . Blu ray has some limitaions of its own . If you want to preserve 60 or 30p (NTSC) or 50p 25p (PAL) you will have to render in 720p . The maximum resolution allowed by blu Ray discs as far as concerns european standards, are 1080i24p or 1080i25i
Editing TM-700 video files:
Only Premiere and Vegas (both versions) had the ability to change custom settings to 1920x1080 59.94 (or 60)p. Premiere was via the H.264 preset, and Vegas was via the Sony AVC preset and Mainconcept mpeg2 presets.
Premiere - I could not hear any sound when importing and previewing files (it said there were no audio tracks). Also, the only template available is H.264, and only creates .mp4 files. There is no option to keep the video in the same format at the original .m2ts or .MTS. It encoded the video, but the result had no sound. I'm not sure if these file choices or sound problems are a limitation of the trial version.
Vegas - Although it appeared promising that I could select 59.94 frames per second as a custom option, in both the Sony AVC preset and Mainconcept mpeg2 presets, neither would encode. Encoding would not begin, and reported "An Error occured while creating the media file. The reason for the error could not be determined."
Videostudio Pro X3 was also able to edit the original video, and burn to blu-ray. Unfortunately, the video was reduced to 1080i. Video files could only be saved at 1920x1080 29i (24 p not even an option)
The included HD Writer software is very basic, but will do the job.
Playback of 1080/60p on computer:
So for playback, Splash lite works the best for me.
Can anyone who has full versions of Vegas or Premiere confirm if
Something for others to try - disable hardware acceleration in your video players for smoother playback!
Thanks for sharing some really good insights and information.
For 1080 60p video, I too found HD Writer to be basic but it works well......and your suggestion on Splash Lite was great...........the playback of 1080 60p video is really smooth even on my PC that has a Pentium 4 dual-core processor.
Now if only Blu-ray could include 1080 60p in the standards......then we won't have to downgrade the 1080 60p to 720 60p or 1080 60i to record on Blu ray discs, which can be shared easily !
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