Printing magenta/red with CS5

[DavePinMinn]

OK, I have a bizarre situation, and I'm sure I"m missing something obvious.......

I've been using Photoshop for ages, and my Epson 2200 likewise, for ages. Everything is calibrated and my prints have been good, again for ages...  I converted to Windows 7 Professional last October, recalibrated, everything fine.

In April I upgraded from CS4 to CS5.  Club year was over so I didn't need to print anything for a little while.  Several weeks ago I printed some images and they came out magenta.  I ignored it and got caught up in other stuff.  More recently I needed to print an image I've printed before, and again, it came out quite magenta.......

I KNOW, back in the "old" days, this was an indication that I was managing color in both Photoshop and the printer.  But, by any figuring I can do, I'm ABSOLUTELY not doing the printing any differently than I was in CS4.  I"m setting the color management in Photoshop, and when I get to the printer dialog I'm ABSOLUTELY telling it to use ICM and NO COLOR MANAGEMENT........  I've tried different settings, different images, and different papers,

and things are still magenta.  I've done a nozzle check, which was perfect.  I've even CLEANED the print head, even though things looked fine.  I've rebooted the computer, cycled the printer on and off, said incantations, searched (in vain) for a virgin to sacrifice, and even PRINTED DIRECTLY from Lightroom V3, just to see if that'd many a difference.  I'm out of ideas.......

Does ANYBODY know of something that's bizarrely different in CS5 that'd cause this situation?

I"m about to reinstall CS4, just ot see if I get magenta prints there too, even though I never have before........

[Noel Carboni]

You sure your printer isn't out of ink (or the ink jets clogged)?

Print something from another app to check.

-Noel

[DavePinMinn]

Not according to the nozzle check, the status monitor, or the head cleaning.

As I said, I printed from Lightroom to check and things are magenta there too.......  Just for fun, I also printed the same image

from Word, and it's not magenta, but I presume Word isn't doing any kind of color management......

I'm in the print dialogue...  Looking at the screen.  My settings are:

Color Handling:  Photoshop Manages Colors

Printer Profile: SP2200 Premium Glossy PK

Rendering Intent:  Relative Colorimetric

Black Point Compensation is checked

In the printer dialogue:

Premium Glossy Photo Paper

2880 dpi

Color Management:  ICM

ICC Profile:  NO Color adjustment

These settings are the same as I've used for years, and prints have been good.

Now, however, in order NOT to get a magenta cast, I have to deliberately turn OFF ALL print management........

So, instead in the print dialogue...  Looking at the screen, my settings  are:

Color Handling:  Printer Manages Colors  (INSTEAD of Photoshop)

Printer  Profile: Stylus Photo 2200

Rendering Intent:  Relative  Colorimetric

Black Point Compensation is NOT checked

In  the printer dialogue:

Premium Glossy Photo Paper

2880  dpi

Color Management:  ICM

ICC Profile:  NO Color  adjustment

SO, as near as I can tell, I now have NO color management.................  It's not magenta, but this is different than I've used with

any earlier version of Photoshop......  What am I missing?

[Noel Carboni]

Sounds like a completely messed up printer color profile then, or one that's just not compatible with some part of the new set of software you're using.

Have you checked for updates from the printer maker?  I can't advise in any detail as it's a path I've not gone down myself.  Might be as simple as uninstalling the printer and installing it again using the latest software from the printer manufacturer.

-Noel

[DavePinMinn]

Unfortunately, the 2200 is an "older" Epson printer.  Epson hasn't put out any new profiles for it in

a couple years.  Mine are the most recent, but they're not new........

I don't think its a Windows 7 problems, since it printed perfectly with CS4 on W7 for the entire

competition year.  I haven't changed anything else since installing CS5, except to install Lightroom V3.

So, the only thing I can figure is some oddity with the latest Adobe stuff...  I"ll have to experiment, but

I've gotta get this fixed 'cause right now it's just a big paperweight...

[NWphotodev]

Dave --- Were you able to rectify the problem??

Not to hijack the thread but we're facing a similar problem (I think?)...

I've tried numerous tests with the only print looking anything marginally workable being one that is TOTALLY OPPOSITE what reasonable color management would suggest -- that is:  

have the PRINTER manage the color & set the printer driver to ICM & No Color Management

-- which if I read correctly is what you ended up doing.

Here's our setup --

• Windows Vista Ultimate 32-bit
• PS CS5 Extended (same results tho w/ LR3 -- magenta cast which seems to me to indicate possible double profiling of some sort)
• Monitor Calibrated (via Eye-One)
• Image
  • prepped using ProPhoto in PS CS5
  • soft proofed using the paper's standard profile for the Epson SP 2200 (in this case MuseoMAX_Epson2200.icm)
  • has ProPhoto as its profile (when I check "Edit > Convert to Profile" the Source is "ProPhoto" -- I just use this to double check, not to actually convert again)
• Epson Stylus Pro 2200 Printer
  • Epson Color Printing System 5.92
  • USB connection w/ Microsoft USB Print driver version 6.0.6001.18000
• Print Settings
  • PS CS5 XT
    • Printer Manages Color
    • Perceptual Intent (per Museo MAX recommendations)
    • No Black Point Compensation (also per Museo MAX recommendations)
  • Epson Print Driver
    • ICM
    • No Color Management
    • 1440
    • Matte Paper

I've probably left out a setting or two so here's an image that might help show what the setup was that seemed to work... though we'd far rather have it work with setting the PS CS5 to have PS Manage Colors, select the soft proofed printer profile (in this case MuseoMAX_Epson2200.icm), choose Perceptual & leave the printer driver to ICM/No Color Management.  At least that seems (I think?) to be what we *should* be doing for proper color management.

Another oddity we're seeing is that when the Epson Status Monitor is displayed during printing, the paper shows up as "Plain Paper" even though we've chosen "Enhanced Matte" from the driver dialog earlier in the process (when checking printer driver settings from the PS print dialog before printing).

With this weird supposedly unmanaged (since we're telling PS not to manage & the driver also not to manage) flow the preview also doesn't show the magenta cast as I've seen with the PS managing the colors.

It could be I've missed something totally obvious in the color management flow, but I don't think I have. I'd just love to get this resolved so it's more clear what's going on behind the scenes so we can count on consistent color.

Dave -- or anyone -- have some insight into the issue??

Thanks for any help.

-Bonnie

[DavePinMinn]

Bonnie,

I haven't had ANY luck getting this resolved........  In my case (and I suspect in yours), I moved to Windows 7 long before installing CS5.  Printing was perfect.  I used the standard Photoshop control with the profiles I've been using for the last several years, on exactly the same paper with exactly the same calibrations on a variety of images...  Had NO problems...........

Installed CS5, and from the first print, THINGS ARE PINK..........

Eventually, I did what you did - turned off Photoshop control, and set the printer to "no color management"......

I've tried it on a half dozen prints, cleaned nozzles, fiddled with things, and any time I let Photoshop get involved, things compost......

I'm about to re-install CS4, just to see if I can get a decent print that way, 'cause with CS5 and a printer that's been perfect for ages, things aren't working.

[NWphotodev]

Dave --

Thanks for responding. I'd hoped that you'd found a way to get things resolved. (Rats!)

Now I'm wondering if this is all related to Adobe Camera Raw in some way -- Here's my 'logic':

I've tried prints (same print & color managed by the application) with CS5, CS3, and LR3 and found that they all show this magenta (reddish) cast. It's reminiscent of what I've seen in the Epson print preview (SP 2200) when images have appeared to have a pinkish/reddish/magenta cast in that preview but printed fine.

Since all 3 apps give the same (or nearly so) result, it makes me think that the common thread is Camera Raw. So, I'm about to do a test printing directly from camera raw to see if that's boogered up too.

Since CS3 had worked with PS managed printing and the only changes were an update to LR3 & a CS5 install (leaving CS3 also), it seems perhaps ACR, as a 'common' component might have overwritten prior versions for CS3 making it produce similarly ugly prints.

I'm hesitant to do any re-installing since I've got working versions of CS3 master suite (well, aside from printing), LR2, LR3, and PS CS5 and have heard/read nightmares when folks have had to reinstall products. So, I guess I'll keep digging to see what I find to work around this issue.

Are you using the unmanaged printer/PS flow for your prints now?

Thanks for any insights -- Here's hoping we'll have a positive option for our print flow soon!

-Bonnie

[DavePinMinn]

>Thanks for  responding. I'd hoped that you'd found a way to get things resolved.  (Rats!)

Me too........  I need to generate some prints and currently can't rely on the equipment I've used for years.

>Now I'm wondering if this  is all related to Adobe Camera Raw in some way -- Here's my 'logic':

>I've tried prints (same  print & color managed by the application) with CS5, CS3, and LR3 and  found that they all show this magenta (reddish) cast. It's >reminiscent of what  I've seen in the Epson print preview (SP 2200) when images have appeared  to have a pinkish/reddish/magenta cast in that preview >but printed  fine.

Yes, my print preview has ALSO always been magenta.  I recall some discussions way back when the 2200 was new and CS (if I recall) was the current version of PS, complaining that the preview was "off", but it didn't cause the print to be magenta and nothing was ever resolved between Adobe and Epson.  You just had to ignore the preview.

>Since all 3 apps give the  same (or nearly so) result, it makes me think that the common thread is  Camera Raw. So, I'm about to do a test printing >directly from camera  raw to see if that's boogered up too.

I was under the impression that CS3 couldn't use the new version of ACR, but if it does, and since LR3 also uses some form of the current ACR, that'd be suspicious.  I also tried printing directly from LR3 (which I rarely do since I don't like the LR print module), and they were magenta.

>I'm hesitant to do any  re-installing since I've got working versions of CS3 master suite (well,  aside from printing), LR2, LR3, and PS CS5 and have >heard/read  nightmares when folks have had to reinstall products. So, I guess I'll  keep digging to see what I find to work around this issue.

I'm reluctant too, but if I can put CS4 back on and get a good print, at least I'll know it's SOMETHING to do with CS5.

>Are you using the  unmanaged printer/PS flow for your prints now?

Far worse.  I'm currently using Walgreens, Walmart, and Target for my prints......  It's very distressing.

>Thanks for any insights --  Here's hoping we'll have a positive option for our print flow soon!

It'd be nice to get something from Adobe.  As in - "Oh, we changed the ...  and now you have to set the frammis switch".  Or something.

[wumpe]

I tried to use an icm file in Windows for my LG LCD (from the LG website).  Photoshop warned me at startup that the profile was broken.  And indeed when I moved a white image from the primary BenQ to the LG, the white became yellow.  Curioulsy the desktop seemed fine still, but I haven't tried further, since I use it rarely.

There is an icm inspector/editor application, maybe you can do something with it.

[JJMack]

I had a problem like that with my Epson 4800 printing with a red cast a couple of times in CS3.  Both time I had to recreate my Photoshop Prreferences to clear up the problem.  Now I'm still on XP Professional SP3 and know Microsoft change the location of where users settings are saved.  On a XP system they are in "C:\Documents and Settings\Userid\Application Data\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop CS5"  on your systen fine where they are.  Open a DOS wibdow and enter the following: Echo %appdata%   and press enter that should tell where you data is to the add "\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop CS5" exit Photoshop then rename that folder to "\Adobe Photoshop CS5 Old"  and start Photoshop try printing. If that does not fix you problem you can exit photoshop delete the new preferences and rename the old folder back to recover all you old settings.

[NWphotodev]

Thanks all for the inputs in trying to sort this out.

I've got a couple tests to run to see what additional light can be shed on the problem:

• print from Camera Raw - to see if ACR is involved somehow
• change CS5 prefs as suggested & print a known good print on a known good profile - this should ID if the profile is somehow involved

In an earlier test I tried to eliminate the MuseoMAX_Epson2200.icm profile from the potential problem points by doing a print on Epson Premium Luster with a profile we've successfully used in CS3 (pre-CS5 & LR3 install). That print also showed the magenta/pink/red cast. So at this point it seems not to be profile related though that's definitely a place to check. In one instance we had done a new paper profile only to find our old one worked better even though our eye-one process "seemed" to go a bit more smoothly (go figure) -- so that was one thing I tried to eliminate early on.

One thing that makes me wonder about the prefs as being the issue is that when I peek into the prefs ( C:\Users\-- username --\AppData\Roaming\Adobe or C:\Users\-- username --\AppData\Local\Adobe ) and look for possible common components -- since all 3 apps (CS5, CS3, LR3) produce similar casts -- I see PS has discrete sets of prefs for CS3 and CS5 which leads me to think that the culprit is likely not in those preference values but in another common file/set of files/setting. The Local\Adobe\Color\Profiles has 2 icc profiles (wsRGB.icc & wscRGB.icc) with the date of my last PS use but I'm thinking these probably are for the default source & convert to RGB profiles that appear when I go to 'edit > convert to profile'. Digging around a bit more in the Roaming\Adobe directory I see color and camera raw directories but nothing that looks like a potential culprit. Not that I'm not missing something of course. I guess I'm thinking that the problem should be with something that's a common setting for all 3 apps, that's not an individual app preference -- or if it is for the individual apps, there should be a file(s) in prefs that were changed as of the date of the CS5 or LR3 install. Could be, but I'm not seeing it.

So I guess for now I've convinced myself to do the camera raw test and keep puzzling about the prefs -- though it sure sounds like a good test to do and a good result... Hmmm...

Our option of going to COSTCO for prints isn't a viable long-term solution and doesn't work for our notecards. Really would be nice if it were a "whatzit" setting!

This has me wondering if the profile target I printed from i1Match actually did it without color managing.  That also raises another thought - perhaps a setting within Vista that handles color management? Hmmm, another thing to check I guess...

-Bonnie

p.s. Dave -- I've also come to think of that weird magenta in the Epson 2200 print preview as being a 'warm fuzzy' that things were going to print 'okay'. Though having an 'accurate' depiction of the print (within the limits of the monitor) would be better.

EDIT: The wsRGB & wscRGB are sRGB & scRGB Windows Color System Device Profiles. Not sure if they factor in for this issue (haven't read/dug that far). Checking into Vista's CM to see what's up there -- http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Vista's_New_Color_Management_System_-_WCS http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t14242.html

[NWphotodev]

Some additional data...

A test print from LR2.7 also displays magenta cast. This is with the test image, using known prem. luster photo profile on prem.luster paper. Print driver CM off, application (LR2.7) CM on.

So this means that the following are all impacted by whatever is causing the problem...

• LR 2.7 with ACR 5.7
• LR 3 with ACR 6.1
• PS CS 3 v. 10.0.1 with ACR 4.6.0.30
• PS CS 5 v 12.0.1 x32 with ACR 6.1.0.250

That seems to point *away* from ACR and supports your recalling the new ACR not working with the older LR version (I seem to remember something about that too).

It also seems to point to something that either is common among all of these applications that changed when CS5 was installed -- or -- is common to printing/color management that was recently changed in one of the standard updates (a Microsoft Windows update?).

My Epson SP2200 print driver hasn't been updated but is a more recent version (5.92) than is available online to download (5.91). So that doesn't seem to play into it.

Or maybe I'm off target? Any other ideas/thoughts?

-Bonnie

[DavePinMinn]

Well, whatever is going on, going back to CS4 did NOT help........

Left CS5 installed.  REINSTALLED CS4 and printed.....  Magenta.

Again, when CS4 was originally on the system I had ABSOLUTELY NO COLOR ISSUES...

Replaced CS4 with CS5 but didn't need to print anything at that time.  Replaced Lightroom 2.7 with 3.0.......

Printed from CS5 - MAGENTA..........  Reinstalled CS4.  It is now magenta too.

I don't know which it is, or what got clobbered, but the ONLY change on this system was the upgrade to

CS5 and LR3.

I"m going to try reinstalling all the Epson stuff and reinstalling the profiles.

[Guest]

I am a professional photographer and I’ve been using CS2 and just installed the trial version of CS5.  CS2 has printed perfect in the past.  The first time I printed something in CS5 for a project I’ve been working on it was a COMPLETE fiasco.  I have the magenta problem also everything looks like the contrast has been bumped to the sky.  In fact, the prints look like they’ve been over sharpened plus the magenta thing.  Oh, and printing from InDesign?  Same thing.  I haven't tried Illustrator but it probably has the same issue now.

20 or so prints later, trying different settings everywhere, on glossy paper with my Epson R2400, nothing changed.  Absolutely nothing I can use.  So, I opened up CS2 thinking I could print from there with no problem and STILL THE SAME PROBLEM.

I think this is a CS5 issue that has changed the settings in all Adobe products including previous versions, which shouldn’t have happened in the first place.

I don’t know what to do about it.  It’s already cost me a ton in printing cost (ink and glossy paper) and time, and prints aren’t even one little bit better.  I had made up my mind to purchase CS5 but not sure about it now because I CAN”T PRINT!!!!!  And the sad part is, if I uninstall CS5 it probably won’t revert to the old settings I had before so I still won’t be able to print.  Thank you photoshop for all of these printing problems!!!

Good luck to all of us getting help from Adobe on this issue.  Looks like we're on our own.

[NWphotodev]

Still digging to find a solution.

From this thread -- http://forums.adobe.com/message/2917421 -- and Chris Cox's (adobe employee) comments on June 2nd, plus our experiences it appears that adobe has a broader issue to deal with than those comments indicate.

From those posts, it appears that the problem would only affect CS5 prints. Obviously either its not the same issue -- or -- it's a far wider reaching problem for *all* adobe products including older versions.

The tie in to coordination w/ Microsoft is what had me looking into a possible windows update issue since Windows 7 & Vista use Microsoft's new color management system. If something changed with a windows update which didn't honor the adobe product's settings -- or -- something that CS5/LR3 installs/updates for all adobe apps did to not mesh with the windows CM system or Epson drivers it would seem that the effect would be to have *all* adobe/Epson printing fail. From our magenta results its as if the profile is applied twice.

I suppose proof of the adobe apps being the culprit would be to print from a color managed application that isn't using adobe's color management. I don't think we have one here.

Back to digging.

-Bonnie

[Noel Carboni]

I don't know if it can help anyone to actually SEE the effect, but I seem to be able to duplicate it on my old HP 932c inkjet printer.

In my case, if I instruct Photoshop to allow the printer to manage colors, then instruct the printer drivers to do the ICM "In the Printer", I get a magenta looking image.  On the other hand, if I instruct Photoshop to manage colors, and turn off color management in the printer drivers, it looks okay.

Is it possible that with some drivers it's impossible to instruct them to NOT do color management?

The original image in this case is an sRGB image.

Ignore the noise; I printed it in draft mode and photographed the prints.  I think the paper fibers reflected the flash or something, because the actual prints don't look this noisy.

-Noel

[DavePinMinn]

Not that I don't empathize, but THANK <insert your favority diety> there's somebody else out there getting the same crappy prints from CS5.  I've got a couple DOZEN images I need to print, and several that need to printed as large-ish panoramas...

Seems like SOMEONE'S regression testing routines could use a little beefing up BEFORE they shove the products out the door.

[Chris Cox]

Regression testing Photoshop doesn't do anything to fix buggy drivers, or user error.

So far all the problems but one are due to buggy drivers or user error - and that one is due to issues with the Vista/Win7 printing APIs not working with older drivers (and we're working around it).

[NWphotodev]

Chris --

Thank you for the reply here & on the other thread.

Would the Vista/Win7 APIs issue affect printing across the board for PS, LR, & ACR apps prior to CS5?

Thing is, in printing a test image -- setting PS or LR to color manage & choosing the appropriate paper/printer profile in the app print dialog while setting the printer driver to ICM & no color management -- results in what appears to be a double profiled print.  This happens with prior versions not just PS CS5 or LR3 and with an image that was printed successfully using the older version (pre-PS CS5/LR3 install) of LR & PS.  So it seems to point to something changing print handling in general, versus just for the new PS/LR versions.  Is that consistent with the "buggy driver/print API"?

When you mention "working around it" are you saying there's already a fix out for handling the older driver/print API mis-behavior or that this is already addressed in the 12.0.1 PS CS5/LR3/ACR 6.0.x release?

Right now, I'd love it to be "a setting" or "user error" but I'm not seeing where the setting is that would affect new & old PS/LR/ACR applications -- unless you're suggesting that Vista/Win7 has a recent software update that has impacted printing functions w/ older drivers. I guess I'm trying to read between the lines and understand what -- if anything -- we can do for our workflow to get back to printing instead of outsourcing and waiting for a solution that may not come.

Thanks for the insight.

- Bonnie

[Chris Cox]

Would the Vista/Win7 APIs issue affect printing across the board for PS, LR, & ACR apps prior to CS5?

No, it would only affect apps that use the newer APIs, like Photoshop CS5.

If you also have problems with previous versions of Photoshop, then you're looking at a buggy driver.

12.0.1 contains some workarounds for older printer drivers, and we are still working on more.

Most of what you can do is provide enough details for someone else to reproduce the problem - so we can double check the causes, and make sure the appropriate parties are working on a fix.

[NWphotodev]

Chris --

For our instance, here's the system/app info:

• Epson SP2200, driver version 5.92
• Vista Ultimate 32-bit, service pack 2
• Intel Core 2 CPU T7200 @ 2.00 GHz, 4GB RAM
• Adobe Apps
  • PS CS5 XT v 12.0.1 x32 w/ ACR 6.1.0.250
  • PS CS3 XT v 10.0.1 w/ ACR 4.6.0.30
  • LR3 w/ ACR 6.1
  • LR2.7 w/ ACR 5.7

Prints w/ known good image & profiles w/ these results:

• app CM on, driver CM off -- magenta cast
• app CM off, driver CM on -- no cast (but also not what we'd consider "well managed" for color)

Is there anything else that would help narrow down the issue or identify that 12.0.1 includes the work-around (& that we're missing something else)?

Thank you for your responses.

- Bonnie

[Chris Cox]

That should be enough for us to start testing.

But my guess is that it's just Epson not updating drivers for older printers, again.

[DavePinMinn]

>Regression testing Photoshop  doesn't do anything to fix buggy drivers, or user error.

>So far all  the problems but one are due to buggy drivers or user error

Uh, huh........

System:

i7 920 with 12GB 1600 MHz memory; ATI 5770 video calibrated with Colorvision Spyder II; 4, 1TB drives for images; 250GB drive for Window 7 Professional 64-bit, and applications.  W7 has been on since 11/10/2009 with no problems in Photoshop CS4.

Epson 2200 5.91 driver for Windows 7 64-bit (downloaded and reinstalled 7/23/2010)

Currently PS CS5 12.0.1 (using 64-bit)

Bridge 4.0.2.1 (?)

ACR 6.1

Absolutely NO problems with color on prints using CS4, installed shortly after the system was built for Windows 7.  Clean install of all products.

Also had Lightroom 2 (probably something like 2.1 or so at the time.  Various upgrades through 2.6 while on CS4).  Again, absolutely no problem with the color of prints.

Installed CS5 within a week of release.  At that time the system had Lightroom V3 Beta 2 on it.  Unfortunately, I didn't need to print anything so I do not know if the installation of the released version of Lightroom V3 had any impact, or if the color problems would have occurred with CS5 and LR 2.7.

Installed Lightroom V3 shortly after release.

Printing configurations:

CS5 doing CM, printer CM off - magenta

CS5 NOT doing CM - magenta

CS5 NOT doing CM, printer CM off - not magenta - not great, but at least not magenta

Printing from LR 3, LR doing CM, printer CM off - magenta

Reinstalled CS4 - CS4 doing CM, printer CM off - MAGENTA (NOTE:  this problem was NOT present when cs4 was the only version of PS on the system)

Uninstalled CS4 after testing, uninstalled Epson drivers, color monitor, and as many other Epson files as I could find.  Re-downloaded and reinstalled drivers and all Epson paper profiles.

No change.

-----------------------------------

Just for giggles, I connect the laptop to the Epson 2200.  Laptop is an i7 with Windows 7 64-bit Home (not Professional).  It ALSO has CS5 in the same versions as the desktop, and LR3.  Printed.  Magenta.

I don't know if it's the printer driver or something in CS5, and I can't get a comparison from friends with 2400 and 2880 printers since none of them will even TRY CS5 because of fears they'll also be unable to print.

[Rainer_1957]

Hi Dave,

I don't know if this is your problem, but the screenshot that Bonnie posted earlier shows where the problem might be: For Epson Printers (at least up to the R2400) you have to turn off teh print preview. Otherwise the colors will be completely wrong. It took me ages to figure that out!

May be this helps

Greetings from Germany

Rainer