Skip navigation
Currently Being Moderated

Increasing DPI while decreasing image size

Jul 28, 2010 8:20 PM

I am using Photoshop CS.  I have been tasked with creating pictures for our office hallways.  Most of the files I am working

with were taken with an old digital camera.  They are approximately 31" x 24"  at 72 dpi and are in jpeg format.  I need these files

to be print quality at 15' x 12'.  How much image quality will I lose if I resize them to 15" x 12" and up the dpi to say 225 or 300?

Any help / suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 
Replies
  • JJMack
    3,411 posts
    Jan 9, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 28, 2010 9:32 PM   in reply to whcraft

    whcraft wrote:

     

    I am using Photoshop CS.  I have been tasked with creating pictures for our office hallways.  Most of the files I am working

    with were taken with an old digital camera.  They are approximately 31" x 24"  at 72 dpi and are in jpeg format.  I need these files

    to be print quality at 15' x 12'.  How much image quality will I lose if I resize them to 15" x 12" and up the dpi to say 225 or 300?

    Any help / suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    First forget about DPI to begin with.  Start with how many pixels are in the images you are starting with.  Width Pixels and height pixels also note the images Aspect ratios.  Next how big do you need to print these pictures for you office hallways. Do or can these prints have the same aspect ratio of the original images? You do not want to have to crop and throw away pixels to match a particular aspect ratio when printing large. 

     

    If the images need to be 15 feet by 12 feet you do not need to print them at a high resolution like 300 DPI for they will not be viewed up close.   However  Digital Camera do not capture the amount of pixels you will need to print a 15' image well you will need to resample you images up in pixel size.   15' x 12' at 100 DPI would require 18,000 x 14,400 that is 259MP.   Your starting with  31" x 24"  at 72dpi   which is about the same aspect ratio (15'6" x 12')  with 2,232 x 1,728 pixels 3,856,896  about 4MP.  I do not know how well a 4MP image will resample up in size to print 15' images. 

     

    The largest print I ever had made was a 6'x8' and printed at 100dpi and printed on canvas. I up sampled from a 8MP image. I was very happy with the image but the images was of a painting which was a soft subject so the printed image did not need to be that sharp or contain all the much detail. My 8MP was up sampled to 69MP or 8.6 time the number of pixels.

     

    Going from 4MP to 259MP or 64 times the number of pixels seems like a very large jump to me.  If I were you I would resample one of your images to that 15'x12' 100DPI  size then set the marquee tool to a fixed size 8" x10" selection and make a selection then use menu Image>Crop.  The make a test print of that 8"x10" crop to see how it prints look at the print from a distance of 5' to 10' to simulate viewing distance.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 28, 2010 9:34 PM   in reply to whcraft

    Its all math. ppi = pixels per inch. There

    fore at 72 ppi there are 72 pixels in 1 inch.

     

    31" x 24"  at 72 dpi  = 2232 pixels x 1728 pixels.

     

    15" x 12"  @ 300 ppi = 4500 pixels x 3600 pixels

     

    The logic above states that if you increase your 31x24" @ 72ppi to 15x12" @ 300ppi you will have pixelation.

     

    Take the 2232 pixels x 1728 pixels and divide it by 300ppi and you will get the actual size print without any pixelation

     

    7.44" x 5.76"

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 28, 2010 9:56 PM   in reply to Silkrooster

    Billboards can be printed at around 20 ppi and they will look very good from the distance. Large format prints don't require higher resolution.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 28, 2010 10:54 PM   in reply to emil emil

    emil emil wrote:

     

    Billboards can be printed at around 20 ppi

    Absolutely. In some cases it may even be best to not resample at all, and just up the size until you reach the ppi "pain threshold".

     

    The people doing the actual printing should have guidelines for this.

     

    The key is the viewing distance. Think "angle of field of vision".

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 12:07 AM   in reply to D Fosse-QDEaQ1

    The thing to remember is: "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear".

     

    (Unless you are a magician. Unfortunately Photoshop doesn't have magic powers – it just knows lots of mathematics.  )

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 12:35 AM   in reply to John Joslin

    No, but a good, sturdy suitcase should be possible .

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 5:18 AM   in reply to John Joslin

    There was a Chas. Addams cartoon with a man herding swine from a pigpen into a building next door, which had a sign out front, "Acme Silk Purse Company -- Research Division".

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 5:25 AM   in reply to whcraft

    In that case see Silkrooster's post above.

     

    You're looking at a roughly 2x linear pixel dimensions increase if you stick with 300 ppi. That should be doable, but they will probably look a bit soft.

     

    Try careful sharpening after resizing. You'll have to be careful, because jpegs are often already quite crudely sharpened in-camera. Excessive grain and artifacts/halos should be avoided at all costs.

     

    Since these images are jpegs, make sure to save them as psds or tiffs before you start working on them. Jpeg is a lossy format and the quality deteriorates every time you resave it.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 5:41 AM   in reply to whcraft

    Image size and resolution calculations aside for a moment, it would help to know what kind of printing we're talking about here.

     

    In any event, the first thing you should try is resizing without resampling. (In other words, you may not need to 'up the dpi'.) At the bottom of Photoshop's Image Size dialog, first, make sure "Constrain Proportions" is checked, then un-check "Resample Image." This disables the top portion of the dialog, (Pixel Dimensions), and effectively "freezes" it, allowing you only to adjust the Document Size, (synonymous with 'print size'), fields. Change the 24" dimension to 12". The 31" will automatically stay in-aspect, and come down to 15.5, (31 x 24 is a slightly different aspect ratio than 15 x 12, so you'll have to crop off a half-inch after you resize.), and the resolution will increase to 144 pixels per inch, (ppi). Click OK. Make the aforementioned crop to arrive at 15 x 12, and run a test print. Depending on the output method, 144 ppi may be sufficient.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 5:51 AM   in reply to whcraft

    No no no. That would resample twice.

     

    In any case "little or no quality loss" would defy the laws of physics. There will always be loss.

     

    Try John Mensinger's suggestion above first.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 6:20 AM   in reply to whcraft

    Other then having VP after their names a VP has to show some type of company improvement every once in a while.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 6:22 AM   in reply to whcraft

    Mm-hmm. An office laser will often do just fine with images in the neighborhood of 150 ppi. It can sometimes depends on the image content. If it is a big group picture with many faces that will be tiny at print size, sometimes you can't win either way. Too few pixels or the interpolated results of resampling--either one can leave fine detail perceptually obliterated. You're always better off not resampling, if you can get away with it, so it's best to try that first.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 6:57 AM   in reply to whcraft

    whcraft wrote:

     

    It was conducted by one of the original creators of Photoshop

    Ah...

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Noel Carboni
    20,948 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 10:39 AM   in reply to Silkrooster
    function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

    Silkrooster wrote:


    The logic above states that if you increase your 31x24" @ 72ppi to 15x12" @ 300ppi you will have pixelation.

     

    What in the world are you talking about here?  Please describe what you mean by pixelation, and why you think resampling an image to a higher pixel count will cause it?

     

    The image, upsampled as listed, will likely look nice and smooth, assuming he uses Photoshop's Bicubic image resizing logic to do it.  Resampling may not even be necessary; printer drivers nowadays often do a passable job of it.

     

    To answer the original question:  There are sophisticated upsampling programs such as Genuine Fractals that allow you to increase pixel count a different way than provided by Photoshop, and make better looking enlargements from smaller images.

     

    -Noel

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Noel Carboni
    20,948 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 9:20 AM   in reply to whcraft

    The action being discussed is probably "stairstep upsampling", which introduces artifacts that resemble texture, and thus are touted by some to produce a "better looking" upsampled result.  I experimented heavily with that myself, and I never perceived the results as better than a simple Bicubic upsample with sharpening afterward.

     

    Whcraft, if you're really serious about improving the look and feel of your image when upsampled, please crop out a small piece of it and post it here (or eMail it to me).  I'll be happy to show you what can be accomplished.

     

    -Noel

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 10:15 AM   in reply to John Mensinger

    John Mensinger wrote:

    ...You're always better off not resampling, if you can get away with it, so it's best to try that first.

    Yes, resampling cannot magically add details in the interpolated image. It will fill with new "artificial" pixels the space between pixels created from the true detail which results in blurred appearance.  The only case when you need to resample when increasing size is, if you see pixelization in the image. Then interpolatiing will blur the neighboring pixels together, so the pixilated appearance will be replaced with soft blurred appearance which many find more pleasing to the eye .

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 9:40 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    The number of pixels have more than doubled in both width and height. Whether you see it or not pixelation occurs. Granted it is possible to blur the pixels which gives it a soft look, but none the less pixelation did occur and is not recommended. Generally the end result that you are looking for is a nice clean sharp image. However it does matter on how far away the image will be from the eye.

    As emil emil plainly put it, you can't add detail that is not there.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Noel Carboni
    20,948 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 9:48 PM   in reply to Silkrooster

    Again, I ask you to describe exactly what you mean by "pixelation".  I know of no widely agreed-upon definition of this term.

     

    -Noel

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 10:17 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni
     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Noel Carboni
    20,948 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 30, 2010 4:36 AM   in reply to Silkrooster

    Thank you for the link describing your usage of the term, Silkrooster.  It's one that's used in different ways quite often, so I wanted to be sure I understood you completely.

     

    So am I correct in interpreting what you're saying:  That upsampling a small image to a larger one in Photoshop will cause it to look more blocky, as though it's made of up of squares of color rather than a continuous tone?

     

    This is wrong.  Have you actually upsampled an image in Photoshop?

     

    Upsampling to a higher pixel count with the Bicubic process (the default in Photoshop for Image - Image Size with Resample checked) will have just the opposite effect.  Color transitions will be smoothed.

     

    I'd genuinely like to get to the bottom of why you think just the opposite will happen.

     

    -Noel

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 30, 2010 9:35 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    I been thinking about it, and I was wrong in away. For some reason I had it in my mind the size was going up and ppi did not which would cause pixelization.

    I think I was confused as photoshop is adding additional pixels that are not original pixels.

    So you are correct in order to see pixelization you have to have a low rez image.

    See I had it in my mind that the smaller the image is the sharper and the larger it is the more degraded or pixelized it becomes. But in that case the ppi is a constant.

    Sorry for the confusion...

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 31, 2010 4:36 AM   in reply to Silkrooster

    Semantics, more or less. We all understood the substance of what you said: upsampling adds pixels without adding detail.

     

    But perhaps you should have said "softening" instead of "pixelation" to avoid confusion.

     

    And that softening can of course be somewhat countered by sharpening after resizing.

     
    |
    Mark as:

More Like This

  • Retrieving data ...

Bookmarked By (0)

Answers + Points = Status

  • 10 points awarded for Correct Answers
  • 5 points awarded for Helpful Answers
  • 10,000+ points
  • 1,001-10,000 points
  • 501-1,000 points
  • 5-500 points