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Can I work with a client using CS4 ME on a book containing Hebrew

Jul 30, 2010 4:54 AM

I have a potential job working on a large book layout that includes a tremendous amount of Hebrew and Greek. The client has already started the book in his Indesign CS4 ME and says that I would need to also have ME so that I can work on the book as well. This appears to be a deal breaker because I can't afford the $1000 it would take for me to buy ME, nor am I likely to use it for any other job.  If I have the regular CS4 suite, can I work on his book, if he does the Hebrew on his ME copy? Will my Indesign properly work with the Hebrew text if it was typeset in the ME version? He sent me a sample of the book, and I've opened it in CS4 with no problem, but I've never worked with Middle Eastern languages, so I don't know what to look for to see if it's messing up.

 

Advice from someone who works with these languages would be very much appreciated. I seem to recall a discussion thread long ago having to do with language plugins for the standard InDesign. Was something ever done with that? I need to know if I can take this job or not.

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 30, 2010 5:51 AM   in reply to E Diane King

    I'm sure our resident RTL expert Harbs will be along soon enough to help out on this.

     

    Bob

     
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    Aug 6, 2010 5:28 AM   in reply to E Diane King

    You create hanging indents with Hebrew the same way you would with English, only you set the right indent instead of the left indent. Then give a negative value to the first lign indent.

     
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    Aug 6, 2010 6:32 AM   in reply to E Diane King

    That's due to a UI bug in InDesign CS4. It's fixed in InDesign CS5.

     

    World Tools has a hack to get around this problem. There's a menu option (I think under Paragraph) for setting the paragraph indent...

     

    Harbs

     
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    Aug 6, 2010 8:05 AM   in reply to E Diane King

    It's possible that the download link was never updated to the newest version.

     

    Try this version: http://in-tools.com/indesign/plugins/worldtoolscs4.zip

     

    The option appears under World Tools > Paragraph > First Line Indent...

     

    Harbs

    http://www.in-tools.com

    Innovations in Automation

     
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    Aug 8, 2010 3:39 PM   in reply to E Diane King

    Are you sure he is trying to make a hanging indent and not a "drop word"?

     

    In Hebrew, often the second line of the paragraph is indented the size of the word + space afterwards of the first line.

     

    It would look something like this:

     

    Drop Word.GIF

     
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    Aug 9, 2010 12:51 AM   in reply to E Diane King

    By "breaking Hebrew words", do mean hyphenation?

     

    I don't know what kind of layout you are doing, but the concept of hyphenation in Hebrew is simply WRONG.


    The Israelis have decided that it's possible to break words that have no vowels, but the fact of the matter is that it's impossible to read hyphenated Hebrew without first reading the next line.

     

    The only place I've ever seen Hebrew hyphenated is in newspapers with very narrow columns. My personal opinion is that it's wrong even there, but no-one asked me...

     

    Harbs

     
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    Aug 9, 2010 12:52 AM   in reply to E Diane King

    Can you attach a screen-shot of what you are talikng about?

     

    Harbs

     
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    Aug 9, 2010 7:00 AM   in reply to E Diane King

    It's true, the last word of the first line is broken.

    Interesting as to what may be causing that, I've never seen it before. Is there some kind of hidden character after the last letter of the first line?

     
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    Aug 10, 2010 1:29 AM   in reply to E Diane King

    There's a bug in the World Ready Composer (both in the Roman and ME versions) and it does not doesn't work correctly with certain text encoding sequences. If these encodings are used, it is not recognized as the part of a Hebrew word. The text can therefore break in mid-word. The problematic encoding range is FB20 - FB4F. Do not use this range of encoding when using Hebrew. This range contains all "combination glyphs" and "alternate glyphs".

     

    Here's a bit more explanation:

     

    There are combination letters in Hebrew that can be encoded in more than one way. Your example shows a "shin". A "shin" is composed of two glyphs -- a shin and a shin-dot (as opposed to a "sin" which is composed of a shin and a sin dot). When a shin is encoded as <05E9><05C1> (shin-shin dot), it is composed correctly. When it is encoded as <FB2A> (combination shin - shin dot), the text can break in mid word. The workaround is to replace all combination encoded characters to the two-glyph equivalents.

     

    HTH,

    Harbs

     
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    Aug 10, 2010 3:48 AM   in reply to Harbs.

    Hi Harbs,

     

    did you make tests with different fonts (e.g. fonts of MasterFont)?

     

    Some months ago I have run into trouble with some combinations of characters with vowel diacritics.

    At least we have found out that this has been caused by the used font and not by features of InDesign and the World Ready Composer.

     

    Could you send an example text to me so that I could do a test with my fonts?

     

    Did you report this to Adobe or WinSoft?

     

    Best

    Martin

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 10, 2010 5:54 AM   in reply to Martin Fischer

    Hi Martin,

     

    Yes. I have observed these problems using different fonts (including Masterfont's fonts).

     

    There are no vowel combining glyphs. Problems with vowels are usually due to non-OpenType or poor quality fonts.

     

    FWIW, for quality Hebrew fonts, I recommend Masterfont (http://masterfont.co.il/) Fontbit (http://fontbit.co.il/) and Fontype (http://fontype.co.il).

     

    Fontype in particular, has created some pretty incredible Hebrew OpenType fonts.

     

    Harbs

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 10, 2010 8:45 AM   in reply to E Diane King

    Yes. You can use Search & Replace.

     

    Search for "<FB2A>" and replace with "<05E9><05C1>".

     

    You will have to repeat this search & replace with all the composite glyphs used.

     

    These are the shin related ones:

    <FB2A> --> <05E9><05C1>

    <FB2B> --> <05E9><05C2>

    <FB2C> --> <05E9><05C1><05BC>

    <FB2D> --> <05E9><05C2><05BC>

     

    Harbs

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 10, 2010 11:45 AM   in reply to Harbs.

    Here is a script that does all the find/changes. You should probably do it on a copy and send the copy to your client to make sure the font he is using supports both types of glyphs.

     

    myDoc =app.activeDocument
    findGrep ("\\x{FB31}", "\\x{05D1}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB32}", "\\x{05D2}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB33}", "\\x{05D3}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB34}", "\\x{05D4}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB35}", "\\x{05D5}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB36}", "\\x{05D6}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB38}", "\\x{05D8}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB39}", "\\x{05D9}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB3A}", "\\x{05DA}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB3B}", "\\x{05DB}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB3C}", "\\x{05DC}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB3E}", "\\x{05DE}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB40}", "\\x{05E0}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB41}", "\\x{05E1}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB43}", "\\x{05E3}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB44}", "\\x{05E4}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB46}", "\\x{05E6}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB47}", "\\x{05E7}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB48}", "\\x{05E8}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB49}","\\x{05E9}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB4A}","\\x{05EA}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB4B}", "\\x{05D5}\\x{05B9}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB2A}","\\x{05EA}\\x{05C1}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB2B}","\\x{05EA}\\x{05C2}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB2C}","\\x{05EA}\\x{05C1}\\x{05BC}")
    findGrep ("\\x{FB2D}","\\x{05EA}\\x{05C2}\\x{05BC}")
    function findGrep(find, change){
    app.findGrepPreferences = app.changeGrepPreferences = NothingEnum.nothing;
    app.findGrepPreferences.findWhat = find;
    app.changeGrepPreferences.changeTo = change;
    myDoc.changeGrep();
    }
     
    
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 17, 2010 12:18 PM   in reply to Fred Goldman

    I just saw your post here with this sample. Im working on a hebrew book and im trying to set up the text with a style exactly as you have shown here. I have worked out how to do it manually, but i need to know how to set a style for it so it can be used throughout the book. Do you know how to do it?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 3, 2013 7:28 PM   in reply to graphic designer123

    If anyone has this issue some time in the future, the fact is that these combo glyphs LOOK better. I have a workaround which I've used to keep the combos and drop the breaks in middle of words - set the paragraph style to nobreak, and run a grep style for all spaces to "yes break." This keeps all words together, no matter what characters are in them.

     
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