Adobe Community: Can I work with a client using CS4 ME on a book containing Hebrew

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1. Bob Levine,

Jul 30, 2010 5:02 AM in reply to E Diane King

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Does this help?

http://indesignsecrets.com/a-modern-day-chanukah-miracle-right-to-left -language-features-come-to-life-in-indesign-cs4.php

Bob

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2. E Diane King,

Jul 30, 2010 5:22 AM in reply to Bob Levine

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Thanks, Bob. I'll take a look at the resources mentioned there. I appreciate the response.

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3. Bob Levine,

Jul 30, 2010 5:51 AM in reply to E Diane King

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I'm sure our resident RTL expert Harbs will be along soon enough to help out on this.

Bob

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4. E Diane King,

Aug 6, 2010 4:52 AM in reply to E Diane King

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I've downloaded a demo of World Tools and it seems to be working (as far as I can tell). I quite honestly don't know what I'm doing with the Hebrew, but my client can read it and correct things (he has ME). I'm just curious . . . can I create hanging indents in RTL? In some of the tables that the client has already done in ME, he has manually spaced out hanging indents from the right, and I cringe when I see such things.

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5. Fred Goldman,

Aug 6, 2010 5:28 AM in reply to E Diane King

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You create hanging indents with Hebrew the same way you would with English, only you set the right indent instead of the left indent. Then give a negative value to the first lign indent.

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6. E Diane King,

Aug 6, 2010 6:18 AM in reply to Fred Goldman

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Nope, that didn't work. I just tried it. You set the right indent and the first line indent won't allow a negative value because there is no left indent. It might be because I don't have ME, just World Tools.

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7. Harbs.,

Aug 6, 2010 6:32 AM in reply to E Diane King

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That's due to a UI bug in InDesign CS4. It's fixed in InDesign CS5.

World Tools has a hack to get around this problem. There's a menu option (I think under Paragraph) for setting the paragraph indent...

Harbs

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8. E Diane King,

Aug 6, 2010 7:52 AM in reply to Harbs.

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I have to work on CS4 for this client. He has not upgraded, so neither can I. I clicked on paragraph under World Tools, but I don't see any indenting options on that panel. I looked through all the plugin options before I asked the question.

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9. Harbs.,

Aug 6, 2010 8:05 AM in reply to E Diane King

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It's possible that the download link was never updated to the newest version.

Try this version: http://in-tools.com/indesign/plugins/worldtoolscs4.zip

The option appears under World Tools > Paragraph > First Line Indent...

Harbs

http://www.in-tools.com

Innovations in Automation

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10. E Diane King,

Aug 6, 2010 2:33 PM in reply to Harbs.

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Oh yes! Definitely more options. You should have that as the trial download, not the other one. It appears I will be able to take on this client, so I'll be buying the plugin. Extremely useful in this case.

Thanks!

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11. E Diane King,

Aug 8, 2010 3:28 PM in reply to Harbs.

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Harb, my client says he doesn't use the hanging indent because neither the plugin or ME break the Hebrew words in the correct places. I've sent him an email explaining the benefits of using a hanging indent and "no break" and forced line breaks rather than the paragraph breaks and spaces. I hope he was just ignorant of those extra tools in ID. However, I'm wondering if you can explain why ID doesn't break the Hebrew correctly. Is it because it's not using the proper dictionary? It would seem to me that ME should have all the proper dictionaries for word breaking, but I don't know much about it, myself.

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12. Fred Goldman,

Aug 8, 2010 3:39 PM in reply to E Diane King

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Are you sure he is trying to make a hanging indent and not a "drop word"?

In Hebrew, often the second line of the paragraph is indented the size of the word + space afterwards of the first line.

It would look something like this:

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13. E Diane King,

Aug 8, 2010 4:02 PM in reply to Fred Goldman

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I'm pretty sure he's doing a hanging indent. They are verses from the Bible in Hebrew with verse numbers. He's hanging them off the number as far as I can tell--not being able to read Hebrew myself.

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14. Harbs.,

Aug 9, 2010 12:51 AM in reply to E Diane King

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By "breaking Hebrew words", do mean hyphenation?

I don't know what kind of layout you are doing, but the concept of hyphenation in Hebrew is simply WRONG.

The Israelis have decided that it's possible to break words that have no vowels, but the fact of the matter is that it's impossible to read hyphenated Hebrew without first reading the next line.

The only place I've ever seen Hebrew hyphenated is in newspapers with very narrow columns. My personal opinion is that it's wrong even there, but no-one asked me...

Harbs

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15. Harbs.,

Aug 9, 2010 12:52 AM in reply to E Diane King

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Can you attach a screen-shot of what you are talikng about?

Harbs

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16. E Diane King,

Aug 9, 2010 4:55 AM in reply to Harbs.

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I can't read Hebrew, but my client said there were words broken in this sample text, which I copied from the book of Ruth and applied the RTL and hanging indent using World Tools.

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17. Fred Goldman,

Aug 9, 2010 7:00 AM in reply to E Diane King

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It's true, the last word of the first line is broken.

Interesting as to what may be causing that, I've never seen it before. Is there some kind of hidden character after the last letter of the first line?

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18. E Diane King,

Aug 9, 2010 7:04 AM in reply to Fred Goldman

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No hidden characters that I can see. I have view hidden characters turned on and all I see is the spaces in between words. There's nothing between the characters on the broken word.

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19. Harbs.,

Aug 10, 2010 1:29 AM in reply to E Diane King

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There's a bug in the World Ready Composer (both in the Roman and ME versions) and it does not doesn't work correctly with certain text encoding sequences. If these encodings are used, it is not recognized as the part of a Hebrew word. The text can therefore break in mid-word. The problematic encoding range is FB20 - FB4F. Do not use this range of encoding when using Hebrew. This range contains all "combination glyphs" and "alternate glyphs".

Here's a bit more explanation:

There are combination letters in Hebrew that can be encoded in more than one way. Your example shows a "shin". A "shin" is composed of two glyphs -- a shin and a shin-dot (as opposed to a "sin" which is composed of a shin and a sin dot). When a shin is encoded as <05E9><05C1> (shin-shin dot), it is composed correctly. When it is encoded as <FB2A> (combination shin - shin dot), the text can break in mid word. The workaround is to replace all combination encoded characters to the two-glyph equivalents.

HTH,

Harbs

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20. Martin Fischer,

Aug 10, 2010 3:48 AM in reply to Harbs.

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Hi Harbs,

did you make tests with different fonts (e.g. fonts of MasterFont)?

Some months ago I have run into trouble with some combinations of characters with vowel diacritics.

At least we have found out that this has been caused by the used font and not by features of InDesign and the World Ready Composer.

Could you send an example text to me so that I could do a test with my fonts?

Did you report this to Adobe or WinSoft?

Best

Martin

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21. Harbs.,

Aug 10, 2010 5:54 AM in reply to Martin Fischer

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Hi Martin,

Yes. I have observed these problems using different fonts (including Masterfont's fonts).

There are no vowel combining glyphs. Problems with vowels are usually due to non-OpenType or poor quality fonts.

FWIW, for quality Hebrew fonts, I recommend Masterfont (http://masterfont.co.il/) Fontbit (http://fontbit.co.il/) and Fontype (http://fontype.co.il).

Fontype in particular, has created some pretty incredible Hebrew OpenType fonts.

Harbs

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22. E Diane King,

Aug 10, 2010 8:25 AM in reply to Harbs.

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That's nice to know but I'm not sure it helps us much. The text in question is not being composed but is sourced from another ID ME document (copy/paste), and we're talking about a LOT of text. Is there a way to find and change to replace all instances of the problem characters?

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23. Harbs.,

Aug 10, 2010 8:45 AM in reply to E Diane King

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Yes. You can use Search & Replace.

Search for "<FB2A>" and replace with "<05E9><05C1>".

You will have to repeat this search & replace with all the composite glyphs used.

These are the shin related ones:

Harbs

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24. Fred Goldman,

Aug 10, 2010 11:45 AM in reply to Harbs.

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Here is a script that does all the find/changes. You should probably do it on a copy and send the copy to your client to make sure the font he is using supports both types of glyphs.

myDoc =app.activeDocument
findGrep ("\\x{FB31}", "\\x{05D1}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB32}", "\\x{05D2}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB33}", "\\x{05D3}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB34}", "\\x{05D4}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB35}", "\\x{05D5}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB36}", "\\x{05D6}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB38}", "\\x{05D8}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB39}", "\\x{05D9}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB3A}", "\\x{05DA}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB3B}", "\\x{05DB}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB3C}", "\\x{05DC}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB3E}", "\\x{05DE}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB40}", "\\x{05E0}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB41}", "\\x{05E1}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB43}", "\\x{05E3}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB44}", "\\x{05E4}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB46}", "\\x{05E6}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB47}", "\\x{05E7}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB48}", "\\x{05E8}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB49}","\\x{05E9}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB4A}","\\x{05EA}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB4B}", "\\x{05D5}\\x{05B9}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB2A}","\\x{05EA}\\x{05C1}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB2B}","\\x{05EA}\\x{05C2}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB2C}","\\x{05EA}\\x{05C1}\\x{05BC}")
findGrep ("\\x{FB2D}","\\x{05EA}\\x{05C2}\\x{05BC}")
function findGrep(find, change){
app.findGrepPreferences = app.changeGrepPreferences = NothingEnum.nothing;
app.findGrepPreferences.findWhat = find;
app.changeGrepPreferences.changeTo = change;
myDoc.changeGrep();
}

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25. E Diane King,

Aug 10, 2010 6:29 PM in reply to Fred Goldman

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Thanks, Fred! That's really handy. I just ran it on my test document and sent it off to the client to see what he thinks. I really appreciate you sharing the script. I've never been able to master scripting (or even learn the basics--it just goes right over my head).

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26. graphic designer123,

Aug 17, 2010 12:18 PM in reply to Fred Goldman

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I just saw your post here with this sample. Im working on a hebrew book and im trying to set up the text with a style exactly as you have shown here. I have worked out how to do it manually, but i need to know how to set a style for it so it can be used throughout the book. Do you know how to do it?

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27. tzufloigen,

Jan 3, 2013 7:28 PM in reply to graphic designer123

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If anyone has this issue some time in the future, the fact is that these combo glyphs LOOK better. I have a workaround which I've used to keep the combos and drop the breaks in middle of words - set the paragraph style to nobreak, and run a grep style for all spaces to "yes break." This keeps all words together, no matter what characters are in them.

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Can I work with a client using CS4 ME on a book containing Hebrew

Jul 30, 2010 4:54 AM

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