Aug 8, 2011 9:59 PM
Blacks Slider Problem!
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Hey,
I shoot with a Nikon D300s and use lightroom to process my images. I was recently trying some grided portraits where I was exposing the model's face and letting everything in the background go pure black. I chimped a lot and also confirmed that the background was truly black, by zooming in so I can see just the background, then using the RGBL histograms to make sure they all read 0. However, when I opened the RAW images in Lightroom and pulled the blacks slider that defaults to 5, back to 0, the histogram miraculously showed no clipping in the shadows and my background was now a murky gray. Does this mean that lightroom is actually pulling detail out of the RAW, or is it just shifting the blacks to ~90% gray.
My light meter told me, that in several of my shots, the background was almost 6 stops or more underexposed, which to my knowledge translates to pure black, where the sensor is picking up no light and hence no detail. I hope someone here can clarify my doubt and tell me if I am missing something or doing something.In fact I took and image at f8.0 1/250th with the lens cap on and Lightroom still pulled back "something from nothing". 'Black' @ 5 gave me R:0 G:0 B:0, where 'Blacks' @ 0 gave me R:5 G:2 B:3. Could someone please explain what the issue is here?
So, exactly what are you asking for? Yes, the "Default" for Blacks is 5. And yes, reducing that to 0 will produce a Blacks setting that is less "black". So? The odds are, if you want a really black background you'll want to set the Blacks to 5 or above. If you hold down the option (Mac) Alt (Windows) key while adjusting the Blacks slider, you'll be able to see where in the image the black clipping point happens. Really, this is a basic adjustment setting issue...learn how to use the controls, then use them correctly.
Wow Jeff!
One of my first few posts here n I get a pompous, patronizing reply! I know how to check if blacks are clipping or not, so stop giving me some basic lightroom tutorial. The point I was trying to make was that, the sensor captures naught (which is equal to pure black) with the lens caps on @ 1/250th f8.0 ISO 100. If the sensor has picked up nothing, then what is the 'black' slider pulling back when I move it from 5 to 0? It can't be shadow detail cuz there's none to begin with. I'm just trying to comprehend the functionality of this slider, which is certainly not as straightforward as you make it out to be! Also the images viewed on the back of my camera are a lot less contrasty than when view in lightroom with blacks @ 5. I have even had several cases where the camera RGBL histograms all show me that I have not clipped any shadows, but when I bring these in to Lightroom with the blacks @ 5 default, I can clearly see that some shadows areas are being clipped. I then have to slide back to 3 or 2 in order to pull this detail back. There is certainly some disparity between the cameras histogram and lightroom's default and this is what I'm trying to understand.
radicalgel wrote:
Wow Jeff!
One of my first few posts here n I get a pompous, patronizing reply! I know how to check if blacks are clipping or not, so stop giving me some basic lightroom tutorial.
Well, your question was so basic, I assumed you didn't have a clue...sorry about that. So, if you know the answer to the question you posted, why did you post the question? No...the camera histogram has little (or nothing) to do with the ACR/LR default...so, whats your real queation? I would suggeat moving the slider around a bit and determining what is optimal for your images...that's what the sliders are for...adjusting the image.
I asked cuz I wanted to know if others were facing the same issues when trying to achieve pure black backgrounds, whether this lightroom behaviour is normal or unique to my D300s?
So basically what I'm gonna do is tweak around and find a value that closest matches the kind of contrast I see on the back of my camera and then work from there.
Just a thought, make sure you do not have (Preferences>Presets>Default develop settings>Apply auto tone adjustments) checked.
You mentioned viewing pictures on the back of the camera and comparing the contrast: I don't really think you can make a comparison with that, as the LCD screen on the camera is not exactly calibrated. Did you always view the histograms in LR? Because of course the D300s camera-back histogram is based on the jpeg not the raw, so is not reliable for judging raw.
"My light meter told me, that in several of my shots, the background was almost 6 stops or more underexposed, which to my knowledge translates to pure black, where the sensor is picking up no light and hence no detail." The dynamic range of the sensor is more than 6 stops, especially with raw. The histogram on the camera back will be limited by the jpeg (8 bits, so a maximum of 8 stops) but according to the dpreview tests the D300s sensor can produce more than 10 stops dynamic range.
As you say, a blank image will show values of 0,0,0 with the blacks slider at 5, but the values increase a bit if you slide it to 0. No idea why, but remember that the rendering of raw values to processed values is quite complex, and it may be that black (zero) values are not always clamped at zero through all transformations.
Nikon D300 has more than 6 F stop dynamic range:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond300/page20.asp
| Sensitivity | Shadow range | Highlight range | Usable range |
|---|---|---|---|
| ISO 100* | -5.2 EV | 3.3 EV | 8.5 EV |
| ISO 200 | -4.7 EV | 4.1 EV | 8.8 EV |
| ISO 400 | -5.1 EV | 4.1 EV | 9.2 EV |
| ISO 800 | -5.1 EV | 4.1 EV | 9.2 EV |
| ISO 1600 | -4.3 EV | 4.1 EV | 8.4 EV |
| ISO 3200 | -4.0 EV | 4.0 EV | 8.0 EV |
| ISO 6400* | -3.7 EV | 3.9 EV | 7.6 EV |
As already mentioned camera histogram displays are created using a JPEG processed RAW image, so not a good indicator of the RAW data!
Download a copy of RAWnalyze 2.10.4.0 to view your RAW images "in the raw" and determine your camera's black levels.
http://dave-anderson-photo.com/blog/2010/08/23/gabor-rawnalyze-author- rip/#more-163
Suggest also reading the documentation:
http://www.oitregor.com/numeric/Rawnalyze/Rawnalyse_doc/datas/Rawnalyz eGuide.htm
You may also be interested in using UniWB:
http://www.malch.com/nikon/UniWB.html
By trying to expose for deeper blacks you are actually doing the opposite of UniWB! The objective of UniWB is to use the maxium signal highlight range of your camera when determing exposure settings. This lowers noise in the shadow areas, especially at higher ISO settings. How you set the Black slider and tone adjustments to "crush" blacks is up to you!
Message was edited by: trshaner Added comment about UniWB.
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