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186 Views 7 Replies Latest reply: Aug 9, 2011 8:19 AM by trshaner RSS
radicalgel Calculating status... 14 posts since
Apr 29, 2009
Currently Being Moderated

Aug 8, 2011 9:59 PM

Blacks Slider Problem!

Hey,

I shoot with a Nikon D300s and use lightroom to process my images. I was  recently trying some grided portraits where I was exposing the model's  face and letting everything in the background go pure black. I chimped a  lot and also confirmed that the background was truly black, by zooming  in so I can see just the background, then using the RGBL histograms to  make sure they all read 0. However, when I opened the RAW images in  Lightroom and pulled the blacks slider that defaults to 5, back to 0,  the histogram miraculously showed no clipping in the shadows and my  background was now a murky gray. Does this mean that lightroom is  actually pulling detail out of the RAW, or is it just shifting the  blacks to ~90% gray.

 

My light meter told me, that in several of my shots, the background was  almost 6 stops or more underexposed, which to my knowledge translates to  pure black, where the sensor is picking up no light and hence no  detail. I hope someone here can clarify my doubt and tell me if I am  missing something or doing something.In fact I took and image at f8.0 1/250th with the lens cap on and Lightroom still pulled back "something from nothing". 'Black' @ 5 gave me R:0 G:0 B:0, where 'Blacks' @ 0 gave me R:5 G:2 B:3. Could someone please explain what the issue is here?

  • Jeff Schewe Participant 2,460 posts since
    Jan 8, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Aug 8, 2011 11:21 PM (in response to radicalgel)
    Re: Blacks Slider Problem!

    So, exactly what are you asking for? Yes, the "Default" for Blacks is 5. And yes, reducing that to 0 will produce a Blacks setting that is less "black". So? The odds are, if you want a really black background you'll want to set the Blacks to 5 or above. If you hold down the option (Mac) Alt (Windows) key while adjusting the Blacks slider, you'll be able to see where in the image the black clipping point happens. Really, this is a basic adjustment setting issue...learn how to use the controls, then use them correctly.

  • Jeff Schewe Participant 2,460 posts since
    Jan 8, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Aug 9, 2011 12:56 AM (in response to radicalgel)
    Re: Blacks Slider Problem!

    radicalgel wrote:

     

    Wow Jeff!

     

     

    One of my first few posts here n I get a  pompous, patronizing reply! I know how to check if blacks are clipping  or not, so stop giving me some basic lightroom tutorial.

     

     

    Well, your question was so basic, I assumed you didn't have a clue...sorry about that. So, if you know the answer to the question you posted, why did you post the question? No...the camera histogram has little (or nothing) to do with the ACR/LR default...so, whats your real queation? I would suggeat moving the slider around a bit and determining what is optimal for your images...that's what the sliders are for...adjusting the image.

  • DdeGannes Participant 819 posts since
    Jun 26, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Aug 9, 2011 3:44 AM (in response to radicalgel)
    Re: Blacks Slider Problem!

    Just a thought, make sure you do not have (Preferences>Presets>Default develop settings>Apply auto tone adjustments) checked.

  • CSS Simon User 126 posts since
    Apr 8, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Aug 9, 2011 4:49 AM (in response to DdeGannes)
    Re: Blacks Slider Problem!

    You mentioned viewing pictures on the back of the camera and comparing the contrast: I don't really think you can make a comparison with that, as the LCD screen on the camera is not exactly calibrated.  Did you always view the histograms in LR?  Because of course the D300s camera-back histogram is based on the jpeg not the raw, so is not reliable for judging raw.

     

    "My light meter told me, that in several of my shots, the background was   almost 6 stops or more underexposed, which to my knowledge translates  to  pure black, where the sensor is picking up no light and hence no   detail."  The dynamic range of the sensor is more than 6 stops, especially with raw.  The histogram on the camera back will be limited by the jpeg (8 bits, so a maximum of 8 stops) but according to the dpreview tests the D300s sensor can produce more than 10 stops dynamic range.

     

    As you say, a blank image will show values of 0,0,0 with the blacks slider at 5, but the values increase a bit if you slide it to 0.  No idea why, but remember that the rendering of raw values to processed values is quite complex, and it may be that black (zero) values are not always clamped at zero through all transformations.

  • trshaner User 414 posts since
    Dec 9, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Aug 9, 2011 8:19 AM (in response to radicalgel)
    Re: Blacks Slider Problem!

    Nikon D300 has more than 6 F stop dynamic range:

     

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond300/page20.asp

     

    SensitivityShadow range Highlight range Usable range
    ISO 100*-5.2 EV3.3 EV8.5 EV
    ISO 200-4.7 EV4.1 EV8.8 EV
    ISO 400-5.1 EV4.1 EV9.2 EV
    ISO 800-5.1 EV4.1 EV9.2 EV
    ISO 1600-4.3 EV4.1 EV8.4 EV
    ISO 3200-4.0 EV4.0 EV8.0 EV
    ISO 6400*-3.7 EV3.9 EV7.6 EV

     

     

    As already mentioned camera histogram displays are created using a JPEG processed RAW image, so not a good indicator of the RAW data!

     

    Download a copy of RAWnalyze 2.10.4.0 to view your RAW images "in the raw" and determine your camera's black levels.

     

    http://dave-anderson-photo.com/blog/2010/08/23/gabor-rawnalyze-author- rip/#more-163

     

    Suggest also reading the documentation:

     

    http://www.oitregor.com/numeric/Rawnalyze/Rawnalyse_doc/datas/Rawnalyz eGuide.htm

     

    You may also be interested in using UniWB:

     

    http://www.malch.com/nikon/UniWB.html

     

    By trying to expose for deeper blacks you are actually doing the opposite of UniWB! The objective of UniWB is to use the maxium signal highlight range of your camera when determing exposure settings. This lowers noise in the shadow areas, especially at higher ISO settings. How you set the Black slider and tone adjustments to "crush" blacks is up to you!

     

    Message was edited by: trshaner Added comment about UniWB.

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