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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 5, 2011 3:35 AM   in reply to topomorto

    I'm a bit rusty on this but for firewire on laptops the first rule was to set all power management to "Always On". After that, if there was anything in the machine that involved timers, set that to Off. I never understood why timers and firewire didn't work together, but it seemed always to be a problem and seemed particularly to affect laptops.

     

    As I said, I haven't tried firewire with Windows 7, but I understand that you may have to try something like "legacy firewire", whatever that is, to make it work.

     

    It will be interesting to hear how it goes.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 6, 2011 1:50 AM   in reply to Wild_Duck

    Wild_Duck wrote:

     

      As I said, I haven't tried firewire with Windows 7, but I understand that you may have to try something like "legacy firewire", whatever that is, to make it work.

     

    It will be interesting to hear how it goes.

     

    For info of Wild_Duck, and anyone else coming across this thread:

     

    When Win 7 was introduced it appears that MS decided, in its wisdom, to include two Firewire drivers, the original "legacy" and a newer version.  W7 automatically defaults to the newer one but this has proved problematic for a number of uses, including cameras and audio interfaces.  Basically, the driver just doesn't work with these peripherals.

     

    It is then necessary to force Win 7 to install the "Legacy Driver" (via Device Manager).

     

    HTH.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 8, 2011 7:51 AM   in reply to emmrecs

    Thanks emmrecs. That has spurred me on to try my Tascam FW-1884 with the low-end Win 7 Thinkpad laptop with my no-name Expresscard firewire interface. This interface reports that it uses a Texas Instruments chipset. This Tascam works fine in everyday use on the XP desktop and also works well and reliably on an ancient XP laptop (Medion single core P4 with built in TI firewire). I also have a Vista laptop with firewire and the older XP Lenovo that I'm typing on, which has the dreaded Ricoh chipset. Both these work fine with the FW-1884 (I've just tested them all again with a simple playback and control test).

     

    First results on Windows 7 were not very encouraging. I hate ExpressCards, but this is a 34mm one in a 34 slot so I was hoping it would be better than where I had to clip on bits of plastic to make it fit a 54mm slot. But the Expresscard location in the machine is hair-trigger compared with the full size firewire plug and its heavy cable. 3 BSOD's later, I got it mechanically stable and the machine running OK.

     

    Testing with Audition 1.5 (yes, I know wrong group), with the default Win7 1394 TI driver gave audio with gaps and no control surface action at all. I then installed the legacy driver. This gave some initial flying fader response when setting up, but no control surface actions when audio was playing. The audio played for about 50 seconds, but then fell silent with the counter still counting time. No point in trying recording at this stage.

     

    So, there we are. I don't have much time to pursue this at the moment. It's a shame that none of my XP machines have an Expresscard slot, so I can't check the adapter on that OS.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 8, 2011 10:20 PM   in reply to Wild_Duck

    When you say: "So, there we are," what conclusion are you drawing, exactly?  Your approach seemed flat out weird to me.  So I'd like to hear your conclusion. 

     

    Also, are you actually recording anything these days, or just using 'a simple playback and control test'?

     

    Simplify, in other words. :-)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 9, 2011 1:40 AM   in reply to therealdobro

    I was posting in the context of the OP trying a move, using a laptop, to firewire from usb partly to test if his recording latency problem was solved by this.Also for curiosity about legacy firewire drivers in Windows 7.

     

    In my experience, firewire on a laptop can be more problematic than on a desktop, but I have been able to use firewire devices on a variety of laptops running XP..

     

    As a retired broadcast engineer, I often get calls from old friends and contacts who have office and audio problems, so I have kept a bunch of older laptops as test beds, and recently have been moving to Win 7 as the "users" replace their machines. I haven't been trying firewire with Win 7 simply because I haven't had a Win 7 machine with internal firewire or any sort of pcmcia or expresscard slot.

     

    In the last few weeks, I have swapped machines and bought the Thinkpad with expresscard slot, so now I am able to plug in a firewire adapter. This seemed like a good time to have a quick try.

     

    So there we are. I now have firewire on a Win 7 laptop. It doesn't operate the control surfaces correctly on my FW-1884, and it doesn't playback reliably. So there is no point in trying to record yet.  I do still record "things", but rarely go out to record sessions nowadays. I do know that others run FW-1884's under Win7, but don't know of anyone else using a laptop for this.

     

    I doubt if this makes things much clearer.

     
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  • SteveG(AudioMasters)
    5,602 posts
    Oct 26, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 9, 2011 9:57 AM   in reply to Wild_Duck

    Wild_Duck wrote:

     

    In my experience, firewire on a laptop can be more problematic than on a desktop, but I have been able to use firewire devices on a variety of laptops running XP..

     

    Works fine here too. Over the last year or so, the MOTU Firewire interface has behaved perfectly on the laptop with XP - no problems or dropouts at all. Even (very bravely for me!) recorded a live gig in Leicester Square theatre with it. That's with a Belkin PCMCIA adaptor (Texas) and a very average performance HP laptop...

     

    Trouble is that if I want to update the laptop, I have to find one that firstly will run XP, and secondly accepts a Firewire card in one of those new narrow slots that I can't remember the name of. Or wait until MS finally sort out the mess - which is the current preferred option!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 14, 2011 2:39 PM   in reply to SteveG(AudioMasters)

    In the FWIW category, I am running two laptops with Win7 Pro 64 bit and a FF800.  It works without error even when I throw the MCU Pro into the mix.  All audio drives are daisy chained into the firewire and the 1394b chipset is a Siig Express Card (54 size).  The only time I've had a BSOD is when the Express Card has gotten jostled in the machine reaching for something or once when an audience member got past me.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 14, 2011 2:40 PM   in reply to TheJackAttack

    I am running the legacy driver on the laptops though RME reports there newest drivers for the Firewire series will work with the default.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 14, 2011 3:31 PM   in reply to SteveG(AudioMasters)

    SteveG(AudioMasters) wrote:

     

    Wild_Duck wrote:

     

    Some of this suggests to me that it might be a usb problem rather than a driver problem. I'm a great believer in xperf and logman as ways of seeing usb problems, if not actually resolving anything.

     

    Ah, yes - there's one thing I didn't mention about the tests I did with the 8Pre - no USB involved at all. The 8Pre is a FireWire device. That of course brings its own problems, but as long as you use a Texas chipset device for it, it behaves fine. Whether that would remain true under W7 is another matter, of course...

     

     

    It works here.  (Not the 8Pre.  The other stuff about firewire texas chipset win 7.)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 14, 2011 4:52 PM   in reply to topomorto

    topomorto wrote:

     

    In that case, by lagging a step behind me, you're now a step ahead of me.  See, I can't run CEP 1.2 on Win 7.  Some plugins ditto.

     

              Do you have one of the versions of 7 (Professional / Ultimate / Enterprise) that has an XP mode? Any joy running it that way?

     

    Way late - sorry - how did I miss this one?  No, I'm running Home Premium, so maybe that's why I hadn't heard of XP mode? :-)   So now I'm going through the painful process of bringing old session in CEP into the present so that they'll archive better.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 17, 2011 10:42 PM   in reply to topomorto

    @Topomorto: I'll try to run your guys' experiment this weekend.  I don't get much chance to poke in this forum.  I'm usually on the run too much but will endeavor to do so on this task.

     

    And just to confirm, I run Win7 x64 Pro and Ultimate with a pair of daisy chained FF800's and Glyph externals.  I have CS5.5, AA3.01, AA2, CEP, though at this present time only the first two are currently installed.

     

    Jack

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 17, 2011 10:44 PM   in reply to therealdobro

    XP Mode is not all it's cracked up to be in my opinion.  One is better off using compatibility mode most of the time but for long outdated programs.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 19, 2011 12:05 AM   in reply to topomorto

    Well. Curioser and Curioser. 

     

    I ran the test indicated. I created a 4.02 second file (2 sec silence, .02 square wave, 2 sec silence).  I imported the file into CS5.5 and checked my buffers.  Looped the output of FF800 to the input.  Ran the routing within CCS5.5.

     

    I ran tests at buffer values of 96, 128, 256, 512, 1024. Multiple times.  In each case other than 96 buffer samples the burst was offset by the buffer value.  So I whipped out Reaper and performed the same tests.  Reaper compensated without any issues.  Then says I, what does 3.01 do.  Au3.01 also compensated without issue. 

     

    There must be a setting within CS5.5 that I am not aware of or missed.  Or I set up the loop punch in CS5.5 incorrectly.  As it's 0 dark 30 currently I'll play with this some more later.  This isn't a Win7 issue or 3.01 would misbehave as well, not to mention Reaper.

     

    Jack

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 19, 2011 8:05 AM   in reply to topomorto

    Track routing.  Output of test track going to FF800 analog output and then new track grabbing audio from FF800 input.  Hardware was patched with a six inch Mogami TRS cable.

     

    The machine I used was a circa 2002 Dell D820 (T7500 4GB DDR SSD main/HDD 2nd internal, and Glyph externals) laptop with Siig 1394b adapter.  I had the wireless on and was updating a few other things too and 96 sample buffer was giving it indigestion.  It just wouldn't limbo that low. 

     

    In all other cases from 128 buffer samples up, the results were offset by exactly the buffer size in CS5.5 only.  Au3.01 behaved as it should and after I posted I ran a couple more tests in 3.01 and duplicated earlier success.  Neither Reaper nor Samplitude had issues either.  I've refused to re-install PT for a couple of years so couldn't test that DAW.  In live classical work I don't ever overdub anything so  I guess I've never noticed CS5.5 glitch. 

     

    Now however I'll be playing around in the preferences and menus looking for any clue though since this is built in compensation I doubt I'll find anything.  I'm not a code writer either but it could have been as easier as a missed keystroke in the compiling of the code too.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 19, 2011 9:05 AM   in reply to TheJackAttack

    Jack, I think a Dell D820 would be 2006 or later and would have come with XP, so are you certain that all the needed Win7 64-bit drivers are in place?

     

    There are a lot of variables here, but it looks as though there is some problem with asio latency with the combination of AA CS 5.5 and Windows 7 and that this problem doesn't seem to be evident with AA 3.01 or with CS5.5 under XP.

     

    For my part, I still could install the trial version on another machine, but I'm still reluctant to do this.  Until this thread appeared, I didn't know anything about asio latency compensation or even that it existed - I just recorded into AA3 without having any latency problem.

     

    What would be really useful would be to see some comment from Charles or Durin of Adobe - a statement of how it is supposed to work or just a request for someone to flag this officially as a bug.

     

    PS Edit Just seen Topomorto's almost simultaneous post about Adobe reviewing this. Good!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 19, 2011 11:45 AM   in reply to topomorto

    We've got a bug written to investigate this further.  With the basic output->input latency test, I'm seeing much higher-than-expected latency values at almost all sample rates on Mac OS X.  I'll incorporate the notes from this thread into the bug (I've already put a link to it) and look for topomorto's related bug so we have all the information together.

     

    Thanks!  Y'all are awesome.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 19, 2011 12:59 PM   in reply to topomorto

    There aren't any user-facing parameters for latency-compensation.  I'm seeing similar results on my Win7x64 system as well, and the bug has been assigned to a developer for additional research and fixing.

     

    I'll let you know what we find, and if I can offer any advice for now other than manual adjustment.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 19, 2011 8:54 PM   in reply to topomorto

    At least on my system, all you would have to do is move the new clip equal to the sample buffer size of your interface. 

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 20, 2011 10:19 AM   in reply to topomorto

    I have devised a possible work around to make the compensation more or less a one click operation. As you may have found out there is already a keyboard shortcut to Nudge a clip in a Multrack track backwards or forwards. Provided you have Snap to Frames enabled and no other snapping option you can Nudge using Alt< or Alt> to move the clip by one frame, whatever the zoom level.

     

    For this to work for your latency compensation you have to calculate a Custom Frame Rate that reflects that latency and use that on the Timeline.  For instance, if your latency is 10ms then Custom Frame Rate will be 1000/10, ie. 100. Or in Samples, Frame Rate=Sample_Rate/No. of Samples. Thus you can shift your clip to the left or right by the correct amount. Unfortunately Custom Frame Rate won't accept decimal points so I hope you can calculate it near enough.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 22, 2011 1:24 PM   in reply to TheJackAttack

    This means that overdubbing ought to be done in 3.01 rather than 5.5, yes?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 22, 2011 2:54 PM   in reply to topomorto

    I did actually run the tests on Win7 x64 with Au 3.01.  It worked just fine at all buffer settings with repetitions to verify results.  Notice, 3.01 so I have done the free update from Adobe's site.  Only CS5.5 exhibited the errant behavior.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 22, 2011 3:28 PM   in reply to topomorto

    If the "Adobe support guy" was using asio4all as the driver as he said he was, he wasn't actually testing a proper asio driver, just an overlay on the wdm driver (although my tests elsewhere indicate there is more to asio4all than that)..

     

    I meant to remark on that earlier, especially as Adobe developers may be reading this. I would have thought that support should be checking on genuine asio before, possibly, testing with asio4all.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 23, 2013 9:17 AM   in reply to topomorto

    I have this same problem in cs6. Did they ever fix it? This issue makes the software useless IMO and it looks like I may be switching DAW's for good.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 23, 2013 9:33 AM   in reply to hawkenator24

    Two things:

     

    * This is about laptops only, right?

     

    * I haven't noticed anything like this using my desktop with CS6.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 23, 2013 9:41 AM   in reply to therealdobro

    No, not CPU specific. I have a quad core desktop with 8g of RAM. You don't have this problem?  What input method are you using?  I.e. USB interface etc, USB mic, line in, etc...  I have a USB mic and use ASIO4All drivers and have to manually realign vocals to match the timing of instrumentals for EVERY take. It's a royal pain. I'm going to upgrade to a USB interface to allow for zero latency monitoring as this is impossible with my current setup but the tracks will still have the same recorded latency so I'll be stuck with the same problem.

     
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