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What PC to build? An update...

Jan 11, 2012 6:37 AM

Tags: #cs5.5 #pc #system #build #components #budget
  Latest reply: Alain Van Haecke, Feb 10, 2014 4:35 PM
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 11:42 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Are you suggesting I sell my current Quadro 4000 card - which as far as I can tell is working like a rocket,  and spend $$$ on a GTX560 or GTX580?  I do basic long-form editing with HD1080 footage.  Would it knock my socks off, or would I hardly notice the difference?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 11:59 AM   in reply to Dr Jared

    Actually, Dr. Jared, the Thermaltake Toughpower Grand PSU is 80-Plus Gold certified. The difference is the platforms that the various 80-Plus Gold certified PSUs are based on. The Toughpower Grand is based on a premium CWT (Channel Well Tech)-manufactured platform.

     

    Thermaltake's poor professional reputation for its PSUs can be attributed to the TR2 and TR2 RX series PSUs: Most if not all of those cannot handle anywhere close to their labeled wattage ratings without their DC output quality going out of the ATX spec. For example, the TR2 RX "850W" model can only provide up to about 550W under realistic internal operating temperatures.

     

    And yes, Dr. Jared, the Quadro 4000 is weaker than a GTX 460 SE: The Quadro 4000 has only 256 CUDA cores versus 288 CUDA cores in the GTX 460 SE. By contrast, the plain GTX 560 has 336 CUDA cores, while the GTX 570 and 580 have 480 and 512 CUDA cores, respectively.

     

    And yes, Quadro 4000s sell used for more money than the full retail cost of a brand-new GTX 580. So, you actually earn some money just selling the Quadro 4000 and buying a GTX 580.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 12:44 PM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Would it knock my socks off, or would I hardly notice the difference?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 12:51 PM   in reply to RjL190365

    We have been recommedning the GTX470 and now the 570/580 for Adobe CS5.x as the best value and performance for the Mercury Engine. I posted the hacks on our website to enable the broader CUDA cards to work when Adobe only had Quadro cards and the GTX460 listed.

     

    We recommend the Quadro cards based on our need to support Avid (they only certify Quadro cards) and the added "stability" they offer.  Quadro cards have a longer life cycle, and the drivers don't change as often as the gamer cards. So while they aren't always the hottest or fastest cards, you know what your getting and you know they work. We run into customers with stability and crashing issues all the time. Many times it is the GPU that is the culprit. Our go to tech solutions is to get thema  Quadro card. Why? Because it works and it leaves our customers happy.

     

    Dennis Radeke of Adobe posted a very good article on his blog:

    Diving into NVIDIA GPU’s and what they mean for Premiere Pro

     

    Very good reading.

     

    Gary

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 1:01 PM   in reply to Videoguys

    HI Gary,

     

     

     

    Well you knew this was coming…

     

     

     

    1)      I have NEVER had issues with Avid and a GTX card. Now since Avid cant seem to update as well as Adobe

     

    They do have this little nag screen that pops up (pretty sure its gone in 6 however) about “this card is not supported”.

     

    Click it to go bye bye and end of story.

     

     

     

    2)      Avid support well that’s the joke of the day isn’t is? Unless you buy Avid assurance ($1000 per yr) there is no support.

     

    3)      Since my support team is better than 95% of the guys you get on the phone with Avid well obviously we sell the Assurance

     

    Moot point for us..

     

    4)      More stable in Avid? Come on man….

     

     

     

    The whole Quadro card thing is marketing and nVidia strong arming the software vendors by holding Cuda code support over their heads unless they promote

     

    The Quadro cards as being something they are not. (lets not forget the free video cards either)

     

    Since I have been outspoken against Quadros I no longer get any “demo” Quadros hmmm I wonder why?

     

     

     

    Scott

     

    ADK

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 1:05 PM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Hi Harm - sorry, I was using the 'reply to original post' button - didn't see the 'reply' one.

     

    Comments were not directed at you but at Scott.  I was trying to get his commitment to my that selling my Quadro4000 and replacing it with a GTX580 would be of noticable REAL WORLD benefit, or if he's just arguing theoretical benchmark schemantics.

     

    Personally I think when the GTX590-Ti-Pro-Ferma3-hyper  is released,  he'll be telling me the GTX580 is a waste of time and only losers use them.

     

    I've made my decision.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 1:07 PM   in reply to Dr Jared

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 1:15 PM   in reply to SafeHarborTJ

    still waiting on those benchmarks... TJ dont get too smug..

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 1:15 PM   in reply to Scott Chichelli

    Scott,

     

    I'm not going to fight with you. For some reason you just can't seem to understand the fact that you are an "EXPERT" integrator, and our DIY articles are for everyone else. Even after I recommend folks buy integrated systems from you ;-)

     

    Bad mouthing Avid support has nothing to do with this discussion or your points. I don't know why you feel you must go there. You don't have to always rip other companies and vendors to show off how good you are. Let your systems  do that for you.

     

    I get calls and emails from end users everyday. We offer free tech support for everything we sell, plus folks just come to us for advice. Replacing the graphics card with a Quadro card solves so many stability problems for so many customers. 

     

    As I said - we recommend the GTX570/580 as the go to solution for Adobe. You are entitled to your opionion about Quadro cards. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that one size does not always fit all.

     

    Please please please try to keep this thread thoughtful and positive. Harm did a great job - lets not derail this thread.

     

    Gary

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 1:22 PM   in reply to Dr Jared

    the 590 is also a waste of money, unless you are a gamer. its a SLI card not supported in Adobe or any other NLE. and frankly i rarely recommend a 580.

    the price for performance difference from a 570 (2.5Gig ) to a 580 is high vs performance is negligable.

     

    so you see i recommend whats most cost effective for my clients DESPITE the fact i make far more $ on a Quadro...

    but again what do i know according to you.

     

    as far as performance from a 4000 to a 570 for many yes the performance would be noticable considering you are long form.

    but it would also depend on layers/effects and are they Cuda or CPU effects.

    obviously if cuda accelerated then yes you would benefit from a lesser priced video card.

     

    a clear case of listening to "marketing" and not sound advice.

     

    Scott

    ADK

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 1:28 PM   in reply to Videoguys

    Amen Gary.  Looking forward to your DIY9 article!  Have you got a test machine built yet?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 1:29 PM   in reply to Videoguys

    Hey Gary,

     

    No I get what you are saying.. (sorry about Avid I have a rather strong dislike for all things Avid both audio and video)

     

    I sell them because I have to..

     

     

     

    The problem with forums is a comment made like Quadros fix issues that GTX cards seem to have.

     

    Might be taken as “gospel”  case in point with 1 particular forum reader…

     

     

     

    I am not trying to ruffle your feathers, I just want both sides presented.

     

    And you know very well how grateful I am you recommend people to us.

     

    Scott

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2012 1:44 PM   in reply to Scott Chichelli

    Sheesh, after all these years and my diplomacy training is still not beating the New Yorker in someone

     

    To get this back on the original topic; Harm has created an overview answering some of the most common questions I get about the HD transition from even tenured Pro's in the media content creation industry. He is also very clearly explaining the types of differences required based just on the material you deal with before you even get into your workflow between applications and workload in each application. Please use this info because you can search the Internet until your eyes bleed and you wont find this in any one place. The manufacturers keep this info closely convoluted on purpose and I wont get into why since it will ruffle to many feathers.

     

    As for the Debate on Graphics cards, keep in mind regardless of who tells you what, Nvidia writes the drivers for both. The added updates for the Gaming cards are due to games. Look at the readme notes and you can see what was changed. Compositing, Animation, and Video applications change far less frequently so the need to update is far less. Quadro cards are designed for Open GL applications. Gaming cards are designed for Direct X. They both have the other API included in the drivers but Quadro's will perform better with certain Open GL applications because of the Plugins included with the driver install. However keep in mind many of those applications are transitioning over to Direct X so at that point the Gaming cards will perform better. Adobe gains zero benefit from the Quadro cards other than 10bit color preview which requires allot more than just the video card. Most are not working in 10 bit or if they are don't need the 10bit color preview. If you do then you will require a Quadro. As a personal note, the first 6 month failure rate on Quadro cards I have dealt with have been far higher than the gaming cards at about 15% to 20%. Nvidia does not manufacturer the Quadro's in the US. PNY does. That is who decides the Quality, not Nvidia.

     

    Eric

    ADK

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 16, 2012 11:31 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    thanks to Harm and the other guys  for that  post.

     

    I am situated in "warrior" running 64bit, I7-960, 24 GB RAM, 7 TB Raid Areca 1680ix, 2x 570 Geforce. OC is necessary.

    Footage XDCAM and 10bit uncompressed or PRORES, i do huge color corrections  and  also special effects in After Effects.

     

    I want to upgrade to ASUS  P9X79 Asus WS and I-3930 (or 3960).  You suggested 64 GB 8x8 1600+ RAM.

    As i found for the moment 8x8 GB stricks seems to be expensive. They are situated in about EUR + 1.000 (Gskill DDR 3-1600 CL 10-10-10-30).

     

    Can another RAM solution or combination be found for a balanced system. Which RAM is BFTB, but not having a bottelnec.

     

    thanks

    klfi

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 16, 2012 11:33 AM   in reply to klfi

    32gig should be more than plenty for most users even with CS6 using even more ram

     

     

     

    Scott

     

    ADK

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 16, 2012 12:46 PM   in reply to klfi

    Klaus,

     

    Here is what I would get right now for $324 USD (if I could afford the rest of your proposed system), then you could always upgrade if we really find some advantage.

     
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  • Trevor Dennis
    5,922 posts
    May 24, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 16, 2012 1:56 PM   in reply to Scott Chichelli

    Speaking of CS6, and taking this thread OT, I am nervous about Adobe's recently announced more draconian policy with upgrade paths.  Specifically, that CS5 to CS6 is going to come with the full upgrade discount, and that it won't be limited to CS5.5 owners.

     

    Getting back on topic,  I am really pleased with my 3930K system now the bugs have been ironed out, and it is working really nicely.   I have seen pretty high CPU usage while exporting, but never more than half of the 32Gb RAM.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 16, 2012 2:40 PM   in reply to Trevor Dennis

    They just reversed a decision about upgrade eligibility, and will continue to offer discounts three versions back. I suspect it will be less of a discount the further back you go, but a discount nonetheless.

     

    Found it! Here it is: CS6

     
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  • Trevor Dennis
    5,922 posts
    May 24, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 16, 2012 7:06 PM   in reply to wonderspark

    Thanks for that. 

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 17, 2012 3:14 AM   in reply to Bill Gehrke

    Thanks Bill and Harm for yr replies.

     

    I have read, studied and learned a LOT from this forum about CPU, mainboards drives, there configuration, Raid and controllers, grafic cards, cases, cooling, win7 config  and tools, BFTB..... and i am now able to understand this part of balanced System ...and for me important - also to work with in an understandable way.

     

    I learned how important in using CS5.5 and AE is a BALANCED system, having as less bottlenecks as possible. In PPBM5 i found also rules.

        

    Is there any thread or posts where i can get more knowledge about RAM DIMM3 in a balanced CS 5.5 system (not gaming). I am interest to get to know to learn and understand the relation CPU to RAM-sticks, the meaning of 1333, 1600, 1800, 1833 and so on. Also what is and what means timing and CL (9-9-9-24, 10-10-10-30 clock ??).

    Where i have to search?

     

    What i understand about RAM in general is "more is better" and "only use one set and do not mix" but i am not able to work with RAM in a understandable way.

     

    Thanks for all recommendations

    Klaus

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 18, 2012 4:12 AM   in reply to klfi

    Klaus,

     

    Regarding what RAM specifications are important for Premiere Pro:

    - size is way more important than speed

    - speed is way more important than CAS (latency timings, etc.)

    - don't forget rated voltage too since you are overclocking; when you have lower voltage RAM (I use 1.5v. on X58) I believe that the CPU memory controller is not taxed as hard as with higher voltage RAM

     

    It seems that the "record-breaking" OC crowd and gamer enthusiasts do buy really expensive RAM with super high speeds and low timings, but they are building systems with MUCH less RAM than those of us here on the Adobe HW forum. Regarding more information about timings, just Google "RAM CAS timing vs RAM speed" and you can surf for a long time.

     

    Frankly, I thought that RAM speed would really impact Adobe Premiere Pro, but based on numerous runs using PPBM5 I can say that RAM size is very important until you hit 16GB (for CS5, possibly higher for CS5.5 and the CS6 of the future) and RAM speed differences were so slight they were difficult to even notice.

     

    I have read that AE can utilize more RAM than PPro if that is important to your workflow - simply do what you do and monitor the memory usage by your PC using the Task Manager Performance tab.

     

    Finally, why don't you just pop a 6-core 32nm CPU into your current PC and buy some more time before doing a complete motherboard, RAM, CPU upgrade? That will give you 50% more cores and be a WAY easier migration path than a complete new PC. The rest of your system is quite strong and while the new X79 6-core may be a bit faster than adding a 6-core 32nm to your existing X58, the serous speed improvements are likely still many months away with X79 motherboard designs still maturing and 8-core CPUs (or more!?) being added to the mix.

     

    Jim

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 18, 2012 10:29 AM   in reply to JEShort01

    Thanks Jim

    for yr help and recommendations. Maybe you are right, i will think about and google about RAM v speed. I did befor but a little difficult to understand.

     

    So you mean only to upgrade to I7-980x extrem edition or I7 990x extreme edition.

    CUPID says my current RAM is DDR3 24 GB channels triple, NB Frequence 3200 MHz, DRAM 800.0 MHz, FSB DRAM 210, 9-9-9-24, 128 clocks command rate 2T.

    During rendering a PP 5.5 timeline  recurcemonitor says used RAM 22% and CPU +/- 99%.

    During exporting same timline to h264 (35-40 Mbts) recource monitor says RAM 40-50% and CPU 90%.

    Is this balanced ?

     

    your recomandation

    don't forget rated voltage too since you are overclocking; when you have lower voltage RAM (I use 1.5v. on X58) I believe that the CPU memory controller is not taxed as hard as with higher voltage RAM

    maybe i do not understand in the right way becouse less of general knowlede.

    For DRAM BusVoltage in BIOS mainboard ASUS P6T6 WSrevolution i use 1,5 volt.
    CPU Ratio is 25.0
    BCLK Freq is 160
    PCIE is 100
    DRAM Freq is DDR3-1604 MHz
    DRAM timing control i did not change an touch.

    Am i on the right way?

     

    Thanks for your time

    Klaus

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 19, 2012 4:13 AM   in reply to klfi

    Klaus,

     

    Regarding which 6-core, that probably depends largely on what options you have available and at what price! I selected the i7-970, which along with the i7-980 are less expensive CPUs, but more time consuming to overclock vs. the i7-980x and i7-990x. When I purchased it, the 980x and 990x were over $500 more expensive, but it seems that with the advent of the X79 stuff the 980x and 990x prices have dropped considerably.

     

    Regarding does you system sound balanced, yes, from what your reporting, it sounds pretty good. And since your CPU is hitting close to 100%, it would seem that your drives are keeping up.

     

    I don't want to comment regarding specific ratios, BCLK, etc. since various motherboard designs do have slightly different designs and setup options and also because each and every CPU can vary slightly due to the manfacturing process. As you are already at 4 GHz, with RAM at 1604 MHz, you are indeed doing well with your current setup. When I made the move from a i7-950 to a i7-970, the maximum stable OC speed that I got was just about identical even with 50% additional cores on the 970. I would contribute this to the smaller die size of the 970 design; it is 32nm, or the same as Sandy Bridge CPUs.

     

    I personally have not done any DRAM timing control tweaking. I have a Gigabyte board and simply set the multiplier and have the motherboard adjust the timings automatically.

     

    Cheers,

     

    Jim

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 19, 2012 8:57 PM   in reply to JEShort01

    Thanks Jim

    Klaus

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 24, 2012 1:38 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Harm,I've been reading these forums on and off for a few years,and I appreciate the lengths you've gone to to provide free advice that actually carries weight.

    I'm working with audio and video,and have decided to upgrade my ageing Q9400 system to the Economical System you posted here.

    I know you can't and shouldn't be held responsible on estimated pricing,but could you suggest a supplier for the parts you listed?

    I realise you may not want to recommend a supplier as such,but any suggestions would be welcome.I would of course be responsible to check for myself on their reputation etc.

    I live in Ireland,and would probably be better off importing from the Netherlands (rather than the UK) as the currency is the same,and the UK prices I've seen so far are 1 to 1 with the Euro prices you mentioned.

    One last thing - I am working with XDCAM EX files,and also plan to concentrate on animation and video using a Canon eos7D. I am only looking into the animation workflow at present. My question is - would overclocking the i7 2600k bring any big benefits? I mean solely for editing purposes,as render times don't bother me that much. I would say my typical projects are of low to moderate complexity as regards track count and effects used etc.

    Any advice would be appreciated.Thanks.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 24, 2012 4:19 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Thanks. Another problem I've just come across is that on browsing the various suppliers sites,there are many variations of the GTX 560 ti available.

    1)Is there a particular one that's more suitable for video editing?

     

    2)I'm wondering how to objectively rate video cards generally,given that they have different Gb rating,number of cores,Mhz etc.

    I realise that it has to be GDDR 5;and at least a 1Gb card;and that more cores is probably better,but the choice seems confusing,as sometimes for example the Gb is higher,but it has less cores,and the same goes for the Mhz.

    Is there any information that could help me quickly decide,and that refers to real world performance gains to be expected by moving up to,say,a 570 or 580 card,given that I'm definately using the 2600K processor?

    Thanks again.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 24, 2012 8:10 AM   in reply to JockLaw

    JockLaw.

     

    Well they have recently really confused the issue the 560 card is the only one that I know of that is offered with two different amounts of cores (384 and 448) this is not an immense improvement   Do not pay extra for clock speed as it does no good.  Memory is generally not a factor unless you are using extremely large image sizes.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 24, 2012 1:56 PM   in reply to JockLaw

    JockLaw wrote:

     

    Thanks. Another problem I've just come across is that on browsing the various suppliers sites,there are many variations of the GTX 560 ti available.

    1)Is there a particular one that's more suitable for video editing?

     

    2)I'm wondering how to objectively rate video cards generally,given that they have different Gb rating,number of cores,Mhz etc.

    I realise that it has to be GDDR 5;and at least a 1Gb card;and that more cores is probably better,but the choice seems confusing,as sometimes for example the Gb is higher,but it has less cores,and the same goes for the Mhz.

    Is there any information that could help me quickly decide,and that refers to real world performance gains to be expected by moving up to,say,a 570 or 580 card,given that I'm definately using the 2600K processor?

    Thanks again.

    GPU-test-PPBM5.5-new.jpg

    Here are the results of my testing

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 1, 2012 6:53 PM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Harm,

     

    First off, I can't thank you enough for this guide as well as the countless other answers and posts in other forums I've been scouring these past couple months. 6 Months ago I purchased a woefully underpowered system (and AMD, noless) and it's been a source of constant nightmares and the only reason I've managed to make due this far is thanks to you.

     

    At any rate, I'm looking to build a legitimate system I'm an enthusiast using a DSLR, Premiere, and limited amount of AfterEffects. I'm also just about to graduate college (read: poor), but am trying to put together a system with room for improvement. I think I've got most of what I want figured out (mostly what you suggested) with the exception of the motherboard. All the Z68-UD5s are listed as not available on newegg and I saw some article about a recall. Looking at Asus boards I stumbled across one that was a P67 instead of Z68, I was wondering what the difference is, or rather if the differences are something I should be worried about? Also, what are the key things I should look for in a motherboard?

     

    Thanks so much,

    Andrew

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 2, 2012 1:22 PM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Thank you for your detailed response Harm,

    I think I've got a decent handle on the more common features I'm looking for as far as ports, dimms, and slots goes, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making the same sort of faux pas as I did when I went AMD before. The kind of thing where it's either NEVER do this, or ALWAYS get this. As long as there aren't any of those, I should be set then.

    Thanks again,

    Andrew

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 6, 2012 5:53 PM   in reply to Bill Gehrke

    Bill Gehrke wrote:

     

    JockLaw.

     

    Well they have recently really confused the issue the 560 card is the only one that I know of that is offered with two different amounts of cores (384 and 448) this is not an immense improvement   Do not pay extra for clock speed as it does no good.  Memory is generally not a factor unless you are using extremely large image sizes.

     

    So would you recommend a GTX 560 Ti with 384 CUDA cores and 2GB over a GTX 560 Ti with 448 and 1,25 GB?

     

    Thanks a lot!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 6, 2012 7:12 PM   in reply to ultimatte

    ultimatte wrote:

     

    So would you recommend a GTX 560 Ti with 384 CUDA cores and 2GB over a GTX 560 Ti with 448 and 1,25 GB?

     

    Thanks a lot!

     

    That depends on the size of your video frames. With RED 4K, the 1.25GB card could very well run out of RAM - and when an image demands more RAM than the discrete card has onboard, the entire image will default entirely to the MPE software-only mode for rendering. On the other hand, typical 1080p frames are easily contained within the 1GB of video RAM unless numerous multiple layers and effects are applied.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 7, 2012 3:08 AM   in reply to RjL190365

    Thank you!

     

    So it's handling of more layers and effects versus faster encoding...

     

    Do I understand this right that  more RAM would be better for other Adobe Software like AFX and Photoshop?

     

    Thanks again!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 7, 2012 8:01 AM   in reply to ultimatte

    ultimatte wrote:

     


    Do I understand this right that  more RAM would be better for other Adobe Software like AFX and Photoshop?

    You're confusing VRAM (graphics card RAM) with system RAM, which are both entirely separate from one another, in this case. AE and Photoshop prefer more system RAM but don't rely on graphics card RAM as much.

     
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