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What PC to build? An update...

Jan 11, 2012 6:37 AM

Tags: #cs5.5 #pc #system #build #components #budget
  Latest reply: Alain Van Haecke, Feb 10, 2014 4:35 PM
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 16, 2012 2:40 PM   in reply to Trevor Dennis

    They just reversed a decision about upgrade eligibility, and will continue to offer discounts three versions back. I suspect it will be less of a discount the further back you go, but a discount nonetheless.

     

    Found it! Here it is: CS6

     
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  • Trevor Dennis
    5,907 posts
    May 24, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 16, 2012 7:06 PM   in reply to wonderspark

    Thanks for that. 

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 17, 2012 3:14 AM   in reply to Bill Gehrke

    Thanks Bill and Harm for yr replies.

     

    I have read, studied and learned a LOT from this forum about CPU, mainboards drives, there configuration, Raid and controllers, grafic cards, cases, cooling, win7 config  and tools, BFTB..... and i am now able to understand this part of balanced System ...and for me important - also to work with in an understandable way.

     

    I learned how important in using CS5.5 and AE is a BALANCED system, having as less bottlenecks as possible. In PPBM5 i found also rules.

        

    Is there any thread or posts where i can get more knowledge about RAM DIMM3 in a balanced CS 5.5 system (not gaming). I am interest to get to know to learn and understand the relation CPU to RAM-sticks, the meaning of 1333, 1600, 1800, 1833 and so on. Also what is and what means timing and CL (9-9-9-24, 10-10-10-30 clock ??).

    Where i have to search?

     

    What i understand about RAM in general is "more is better" and "only use one set and do not mix" but i am not able to work with RAM in a understandable way.

     

    Thanks for all recommendations

    Klaus

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 18, 2012 4:12 AM   in reply to klfi

    Klaus,

     

    Regarding what RAM specifications are important for Premiere Pro:

    - size is way more important than speed

    - speed is way more important than CAS (latency timings, etc.)

    - don't forget rated voltage too since you are overclocking; when you have lower voltage RAM (I use 1.5v. on X58) I believe that the CPU memory controller is not taxed as hard as with higher voltage RAM

     

    It seems that the "record-breaking" OC crowd and gamer enthusiasts do buy really expensive RAM with super high speeds and low timings, but they are building systems with MUCH less RAM than those of us here on the Adobe HW forum. Regarding more information about timings, just Google "RAM CAS timing vs RAM speed" and you can surf for a long time.

     

    Frankly, I thought that RAM speed would really impact Adobe Premiere Pro, but based on numerous runs using PPBM5 I can say that RAM size is very important until you hit 16GB (for CS5, possibly higher for CS5.5 and the CS6 of the future) and RAM speed differences were so slight they were difficult to even notice.

     

    I have read that AE can utilize more RAM than PPro if that is important to your workflow - simply do what you do and monitor the memory usage by your PC using the Task Manager Performance tab.

     

    Finally, why don't you just pop a 6-core 32nm CPU into your current PC and buy some more time before doing a complete motherboard, RAM, CPU upgrade? That will give you 50% more cores and be a WAY easier migration path than a complete new PC. The rest of your system is quite strong and while the new X79 6-core may be a bit faster than adding a 6-core 32nm to your existing X58, the serous speed improvements are likely still many months away with X79 motherboard designs still maturing and 8-core CPUs (or more!?) being added to the mix.

     

    Jim

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 18, 2012 10:29 AM   in reply to JEShort01

    Thanks Jim

    for yr help and recommendations. Maybe you are right, i will think about and google about RAM v speed. I did befor but a little difficult to understand.

     

    So you mean only to upgrade to I7-980x extrem edition or I7 990x extreme edition.

    CUPID says my current RAM is DDR3 24 GB channels triple, NB Frequence 3200 MHz, DRAM 800.0 MHz, FSB DRAM 210, 9-9-9-24, 128 clocks command rate 2T.

    During rendering a PP 5.5 timeline  recurcemonitor says used RAM 22% and CPU +/- 99%.

    During exporting same timline to h264 (35-40 Mbts) recource monitor says RAM 40-50% and CPU 90%.

    Is this balanced ?

     

    your recomandation

    don't forget rated voltage too since you are overclocking; when you have lower voltage RAM (I use 1.5v. on X58) I believe that the CPU memory controller is not taxed as hard as with higher voltage RAM

    maybe i do not understand in the right way becouse less of general knowlede.

    For DRAM BusVoltage in BIOS mainboard ASUS P6T6 WSrevolution i use 1,5 volt.
    CPU Ratio is 25.0
    BCLK Freq is 160
    PCIE is 100
    DRAM Freq is DDR3-1604 MHz
    DRAM timing control i did not change an touch.

    Am i on the right way?

     

    Thanks for your time

    Klaus

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 19, 2012 4:13 AM   in reply to klfi

    Klaus,

     

    Regarding which 6-core, that probably depends largely on what options you have available and at what price! I selected the i7-970, which along with the i7-980 are less expensive CPUs, but more time consuming to overclock vs. the i7-980x and i7-990x. When I purchased it, the 980x and 990x were over $500 more expensive, but it seems that with the advent of the X79 stuff the 980x and 990x prices have dropped considerably.

     

    Regarding does you system sound balanced, yes, from what your reporting, it sounds pretty good. And since your CPU is hitting close to 100%, it would seem that your drives are keeping up.

     

    I don't want to comment regarding specific ratios, BCLK, etc. since various motherboard designs do have slightly different designs and setup options and also because each and every CPU can vary slightly due to the manfacturing process. As you are already at 4 GHz, with RAM at 1604 MHz, you are indeed doing well with your current setup. When I made the move from a i7-950 to a i7-970, the maximum stable OC speed that I got was just about identical even with 50% additional cores on the 970. I would contribute this to the smaller die size of the 970 design; it is 32nm, or the same as Sandy Bridge CPUs.

     

    I personally have not done any DRAM timing control tweaking. I have a Gigabyte board and simply set the multiplier and have the motherboard adjust the timings automatically.

     

    Cheers,

     

    Jim

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 19, 2012 8:57 PM   in reply to JEShort01

    Thanks Jim

    Klaus

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 24, 2012 1:38 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Harm,I've been reading these forums on and off for a few years,and I appreciate the lengths you've gone to to provide free advice that actually carries weight.

    I'm working with audio and video,and have decided to upgrade my ageing Q9400 system to the Economical System you posted here.

    I know you can't and shouldn't be held responsible on estimated pricing,but could you suggest a supplier for the parts you listed?

    I realise you may not want to recommend a supplier as such,but any suggestions would be welcome.I would of course be responsible to check for myself on their reputation etc.

    I live in Ireland,and would probably be better off importing from the Netherlands (rather than the UK) as the currency is the same,and the UK prices I've seen so far are 1 to 1 with the Euro prices you mentioned.

    One last thing - I am working with XDCAM EX files,and also plan to concentrate on animation and video using a Canon eos7D. I am only looking into the animation workflow at present. My question is - would overclocking the i7 2600k bring any big benefits? I mean solely for editing purposes,as render times don't bother me that much. I would say my typical projects are of low to moderate complexity as regards track count and effects used etc.

    Any advice would be appreciated.Thanks.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 24, 2012 4:19 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Thanks. Another problem I've just come across is that on browsing the various suppliers sites,there are many variations of the GTX 560 ti available.

    1)Is there a particular one that's more suitable for video editing?

     

    2)I'm wondering how to objectively rate video cards generally,given that they have different Gb rating,number of cores,Mhz etc.

    I realise that it has to be GDDR 5;and at least a 1Gb card;and that more cores is probably better,but the choice seems confusing,as sometimes for example the Gb is higher,but it has less cores,and the same goes for the Mhz.

    Is there any information that could help me quickly decide,and that refers to real world performance gains to be expected by moving up to,say,a 570 or 580 card,given that I'm definately using the 2600K processor?

    Thanks again.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 24, 2012 8:10 AM   in reply to JockLaw

    JockLaw.

     

    Well they have recently really confused the issue the 560 card is the only one that I know of that is offered with two different amounts of cores (384 and 448) this is not an immense improvement   Do not pay extra for clock speed as it does no good.  Memory is generally not a factor unless you are using extremely large image sizes.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 24, 2012 1:56 PM   in reply to JockLaw

    JockLaw wrote:

     

    Thanks. Another problem I've just come across is that on browsing the various suppliers sites,there are many variations of the GTX 560 ti available.

    1)Is there a particular one that's more suitable for video editing?

     

    2)I'm wondering how to objectively rate video cards generally,given that they have different Gb rating,number of cores,Mhz etc.

    I realise that it has to be GDDR 5;and at least a 1Gb card;and that more cores is probably better,but the choice seems confusing,as sometimes for example the Gb is higher,but it has less cores,and the same goes for the Mhz.

    Is there any information that could help me quickly decide,and that refers to real world performance gains to be expected by moving up to,say,a 570 or 580 card,given that I'm definately using the 2600K processor?

    Thanks again.

    GPU-test-PPBM5.5-new.jpg

    Here are the results of my testing

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 1, 2012 6:53 PM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Harm,

     

    First off, I can't thank you enough for this guide as well as the countless other answers and posts in other forums I've been scouring these past couple months. 6 Months ago I purchased a woefully underpowered system (and AMD, noless) and it's been a source of constant nightmares and the only reason I've managed to make due this far is thanks to you.

     

    At any rate, I'm looking to build a legitimate system I'm an enthusiast using a DSLR, Premiere, and limited amount of AfterEffects. I'm also just about to graduate college (read: poor), but am trying to put together a system with room for improvement. I think I've got most of what I want figured out (mostly what you suggested) with the exception of the motherboard. All the Z68-UD5s are listed as not available on newegg and I saw some article about a recall. Looking at Asus boards I stumbled across one that was a P67 instead of Z68, I was wondering what the difference is, or rather if the differences are something I should be worried about? Also, what are the key things I should look for in a motherboard?

     

    Thanks so much,

    Andrew

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 2, 2012 1:22 PM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Thank you for your detailed response Harm,

    I think I've got a decent handle on the more common features I'm looking for as far as ports, dimms, and slots goes, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making the same sort of faux pas as I did when I went AMD before. The kind of thing where it's either NEVER do this, or ALWAYS get this. As long as there aren't any of those, I should be set then.

    Thanks again,

    Andrew

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 6, 2012 5:53 PM   in reply to Bill Gehrke

    Bill Gehrke wrote:

     

    JockLaw.

     

    Well they have recently really confused the issue the 560 card is the only one that I know of that is offered with two different amounts of cores (384 and 448) this is not an immense improvement   Do not pay extra for clock speed as it does no good.  Memory is generally not a factor unless you are using extremely large image sizes.

     

    So would you recommend a GTX 560 Ti with 384 CUDA cores and 2GB over a GTX 560 Ti with 448 and 1,25 GB?

     

    Thanks a lot!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 6, 2012 7:12 PM   in reply to ultimatte

    ultimatte wrote:

     

    So would you recommend a GTX 560 Ti with 384 CUDA cores and 2GB over a GTX 560 Ti with 448 and 1,25 GB?

     

    Thanks a lot!

     

    That depends on the size of your video frames. With RED 4K, the 1.25GB card could very well run out of RAM - and when an image demands more RAM than the discrete card has onboard, the entire image will default entirely to the MPE software-only mode for rendering. On the other hand, typical 1080p frames are easily contained within the 1GB of video RAM unless numerous multiple layers and effects are applied.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 7, 2012 3:08 AM   in reply to RjL190365

    Thank you!

     

    So it's handling of more layers and effects versus faster encoding...

     

    Do I understand this right that  more RAM would be better for other Adobe Software like AFX and Photoshop?

     

    Thanks again!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 7, 2012 8:01 AM   in reply to ultimatte

    ultimatte wrote:

     


    Do I understand this right that  more RAM would be better for other Adobe Software like AFX and Photoshop?

    You're confusing VRAM (graphics card RAM) with system RAM, which are both entirely separate from one another, in this case. AE and Photoshop prefer more system RAM but don't rely on graphics card RAM as much.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 7, 2012 10:44 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    This is a great update about PC hardware. On the other hand, I would like to that think it would be great to write a discussion about the recommended display and monitoring solution for Premiere Pro in a similar way, considering footage, vendors, budget etc.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 7, 2012 5:24 PM   in reply to RjL190365

    Thank you for your answer!

     

    I wasn't confusing RAM with VRAM. I just thought After Effects relied on VRAM, too!?

    So it's really just Premiere that relies on VRAM and CUDA cores?

    What do you consider 'numerous multiple layers and effects'?

    I'm asking to get an idea of what I need...

     

    Thanks again!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 9, 2012 9:02 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Thanks so much harm for this thread and the many answers, which is exactly what I was looking for.

    I need a workstation to run cs5.5. I'm mostly using PPro and AE, for 30min movies using lots of VFX on HDV rushes.

    I have a little extra $$ to boost from your "economic" config. What would you recommend given my needs? Increase RAM to 32 Gb or upgrade the video card to the GTX580? Would it unbalanced the whole wkstation by creating bottlenecks? What if I do both upgrades?

     

    Best

     

    Zovic

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 9, 2012 9:32 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Harm: thanks so much for your fast and precise answer!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 10, 2012 6:42 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Great information here.  Thank you for posting.  i've been conferring with my IT dept. and think we've come up with specs that will fit our budget.  I wonder if you folks would take a look and tell me if there are any glaring problems with our decision.  i will be editing with AVCHD (new to me with this purchase).  while i'm currently using AVID Liquid Pro, we are upgrading to Premiere Pro CS5 and this is what we're looking to put together in a system......

     

    HP Z800 (FM104UT)

    Xeon E5620   2.4 GHz processor

    16 GB RAM

    1 TB Internal HD

    NVIDIA Quadro 4000 Graphics

    DVD writer

    Blue Ray writer

    USB 3.0 card

    2 external / portable USB 3.0 HD

    multicard reader

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 10, 2012 7:07 AM   in reply to jedwards2325

    It is a shame that you cannot convince your IT department to get a system designed for video editing, like ADK does.  You only have 8 GB per processor which is awful weak.  You would be much better off with a single, faster, newer, overclockable processor tuned for NLE work.  You are buying CPU's (LGA 1366) that are now several generations old.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 10, 2012 8:30 AM   in reply to jedwards2325

    That particular system costs way too much money for too little actual performance. Here's why:

     

    1) A single Xeon E5620 is slower than a first-generation i7-920 or even a currently available i5-2400 to begin with. The only reason to get a Z800 is in its dual-CPU configuration - and it needs dual hex-core Xeons to even come anywhere close to worthwhile. Unfortunately, the E5620 is only quad-core, not hex-core.

     

    2) For that platform, get 24GB or 48GB of RAM. 16GB isn't enough in a dual-CPU-capable platform and does not divide evenly into three memory controller channels (these particular Xeons are triple-channel - but 16GB of RAM using four sticks would have forced the memory controller to operate in a hybrid triple- and single-channel mode where the first 12GB would operate in triple-channel and the remaining 4GB would operate in single-channel).

     

    3) The Quadro 4000 is actually recommended by AVID for its higher-end programs. However, Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5 does not make much if any use of the Quadro's added capabilities; in fact, as far as performance is concerned Premiere Pro will think the Quadro 4000 is slower than a GeForce GTX 460.

     

    4) Why two burners? All Blu-ray burners also burn DVDs and CDs. In fact, the only purpose of dual optical burners is to copy one DVD directly to another without having to rip the original DVD's contents onto the hard drive first. Or is it that you thought that Blu-ray burners accept only Blu-ray media and don't accept DVD or CD media at all?

     

    5) As configured, that Z800 lacks any internal RAID drives. Premiere Pro benefits from fast internal RAID drives (but you should avoid RAIDing the OS drive). And two external USB 3.0 drive kits are usually too slow in physical transfer speed to be of much use for any purpose besides backups since many of them spin at only 5400 RPM or even slower. Very few commercially-assembled USB 3.0 external hard drive kits spin at 7200 RPM (the minimum rotational speed for a hard drive that we recommend in an editing system).

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 10, 2012 1:31 PM   in reply to jedwards2325

    I recently upgraded my editing computer, actually I built a new (my first) after following comments on the board since the original specs were presented by our friend in Holland.  I would agree that you should skip the Quadro 4000 card and go with something else too.  I had a Quadro 2000 card in my previous system.

     

    Here are the parts that I purchased locally at http://www.microcenter.com/ which makes it really handy if you have something to return (which I did multiple times as I live near Denver).  I have yet to try to overclock the memory as the motherboard comes with that kind of gamer support option, but it is something I will try when I don't have deadlines looming.

     

    Asus Maximus IV Extreme-Z LGA 1155 Z68 eATX Intel Motherboard

    XMS3 8GB DDR3-1600 (PC3-12800) CL9 Desktop Memory Kit (4 x 4GB Memory Modules)

    Intel Core i7 2600 LGA 1155 Boxed Processor

    GeForce GTX 580 1536MB GDDR5 PCIe 2.0 x16 Video Card

    Performances Series P3-64 CSSD-P364GB2-BR 64GB SATA 6Gb/s 2.5" Solid State Drive (SSD) with Marvell Controller

    Enthusiast Series TX750M 750 Watt High Performance Modular ATX Power Supply

    HAF932 High Air Flow Full Tower Computer Case

    Optical Drive

    RAID drives

    Etc.

     

    Having had a new system only three years ago, the power is clearly more evident in comparison with rendering which is cut more than in half.  I also find that the SSD card really speeds up the OS when starting up among other things.

     

    In terms of overclocking, I am open to suggestions on how to properly proceed with benchmarking my results.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 11, 2012 9:51 AM   in reply to Michael Conti

    Michael,

     

    You don't really need to worrry much about OC'ing memory, that doesn't help PPro performance in any noticable way.

     

    However, if you could possibly trade your 2600 cpu in for the "unlocked" 2600k model, you would gain significant noticable performance by OC'ing your CPU. The 2600 cannot overclock nearly as easy or as high as the 2600k.

     

    Jim

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 12, 2012 10:26 PM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    To all,

     

    I just read I neat article about two mysterious switches on my Asus mobo, the TPU and EPU. This may be of interest to people who don't know how to overclock their systems like myself, but are building the system to do it. Seems like you can get most of the gains with an ounce of the effort thanks to some clever engineering on Asus' part. Possibly something to consider when shopping for mobo's. Though, perhaps this is also sacrilige to the resident gurus.


    http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_dual_intelligent _processors_review/1

     

    I haven't tried it out yet personally, but I should be up and running within a week or so, then I can see how it goes.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 13, 2012 2:26 PM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    First I must give appropriate props to Harm......thanks for taking the time to lay down all this info in one place..........its much appreciated.

     

    I would like some input on the type of system I need for my client...my knowledge is advanced in hardware but I have really none in the adobe suite, particularly AFTER EFFECTS 5.5 and video rendering. Any advice on the grade of system (  BUDGET,ECONOMICAL,WARRIOR) …and specifics on RAID, CPU, RAM…..would be greatly appreciated.

     

    The client will be working mostly in AFTER EFFECTS…..here is the info I was given:

     

    We use a DSLR Camera that only shoots in 1080p with an h264 codec usually Also we need a Mac computer so we can edit videos in After Effects and render big projects like ten greenscreen videos over night. We also have to backup 6TBs and I thought getting externals would be the way to go but is it cheaper or possible to put that into the Mac computer plus like an extra TB into the computer for programs?

     

    It didn’t take much to get him off of the ‘Mac’….all I did was stated the facts…haha.  Again…any and all feedback is GREATLY APPRECIATED. Thanks and God Bless.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 21, 2012 2:12 PM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Hi there,

     

    I have finally decided to go half way between the economic and warrior configurations. Any feedback on the overall relevance of the choice below would be highly appreciated before I click the Buy button ;-)

     

    • COOLER MASTER HAF 932
    • COOLER MASTER Silent Pro M 850W Power Supply 
    • ASUS P9X79 WS (I need firewire...)
    • INTEL Core i7-3930K
    • COOLER MASTER Hyper 212 Plus CPU Cooler
    • G.SKILL 32GB (4 x 8GB) Ripjaws Z PC3-12800 DDR3 1600MHz
    • ZOTAC ZT-50103-10P, GeForce® GTX 580 772MHz, 3GB
    • OCZ 240GB Agility 3 SSD fos OS+CS5.5 
    • 2 x WESTERN DIGITAL 1TB WD Caviar Black
    • Windows 7 Professional 64-bit

     

    Thank you!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 21, 2012 3:10 PM   in reply to zovic

    Zovic (and all),

     

    As far as the SSD goes, I know there's been alot of debate about the cost/benefit of SSD at their current pricepoints, a possibility to save a chunk a change on the SSD but still get a fair amount of the benefits would appear to be cacheing a 40 or 60gb SSD instead. It's a feature I know is on the z68 chipsets, but I'm not sure what others, but basically the idea is that your computer determines the most commonly accessed programs and files to put on the SSD to get the benefit where it matters most. The article I read goes into more depth and has some benchmarks for adobe programs listed. May be worth considering if you're looking to trim the budget a bit.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 21, 2012 5:37 PM   in reply to zovic

    Zovic,

     

    Nice build! In fact I would say that you have pushed way past the halfway point from economic to warrior threshold .

     

    I do like SSD drives for OS/programs, but would suggest a smaller 120GB or 128GB size SSD for that purpose. Also, I think that both Crucial SSD drives are a safer choice vs. any SSDs that use the Sandforce controller (OCZ, etc.).

     

    Regards,

     

    Jim

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 22, 2012 9:54 AM   in reply to JEShort01

    Thanks for the suggestion, I'm gonna follow it... If you confirm that 120GB is enough to run smoothly W7+ CS5.5 + plugins?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 22, 2012 1:19 PM   in reply to zovic

    Zovic,

     

    A 120GB SSD boot drive is plenty for OS, programs, and you can put the "Media Cache DB" on it too. If your system is not running "smoothly" enough then you don't need a bigger or better boot drive, you need more RAID arrays and/or single HDs for projects, media, render, etc.!

     

    Jim

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2012 11:53 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Videoguys DIY9 Update

     

    Feb 2012 update with 3 recommended builds! You can mix & match components between the two P9X79 builds or go with a budget system based on the P8Z68 and i7 2600K processor. We tried to get as close to $2K as possible for our system, but we went over.


    • We are leaning towards the base Asus P9X79 motherboard over the Pro. We'll save some bucks and we feel we'll still need FireWire for capturing our older legacy DV & HDV footage.  
    • We're going to go with an SSD boot drive even though it adds almost $200 to the cost of the build.
    • I'm still thinking we may go for the full 32GB of RAM. I think we may be penny wise and pound foolish going with just 16GB.
    • We're also going with a GTX570 to save costs, although for Avid you really want to go with a Quadro2000 or 4000.

     

    Unfortunately we still have not had the chance to build our DIY9 machine. Some internal IT issues have taken the bulk of our tech teams time over the past few weeks. We are also finding the i7 3930K processor in very tight supply.

     

    Gary

     
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