Jim, thank you for the answear but honestly I find it very hard to believe that I'm the only one who is faced with this issue.
I made a clean and fresh install of my Windows 7 64bit, I updated the drives of my video card NVidia GeForce 315, I made a clean and legal install of Premiere Pro CS5.5 and finally I noted that the problem still there, thing that dind't happen in After Effects, Sony Vegas Pro or Edius. Personally, I think that all this is related to the option Maximum Bit Depth, but on or off in the sequence setting almoust nothing changes (just a little bit). Is truly shameful, really. I want to let a second video even more clearer about what happens and I really hope that someone can help me in this:
Yes, this is certainly a bug. It's unacceptable to change the tones of a video/image with just applying Three Way Color Correction without changing anything on the parameters. And is more, now I have the confirmation of anothers persons who editing with Premiere Pro. So, I'm not alone in this. And all this happens with Fast Color Correction and with all the tools of the bin "Color Correction".
To demontrate more this clearly bug, I used this time the "Bars and Tone" of Premiere Pro CS5.5 and "All scope" and the result is obvious!
In conclusion, who don't see this bug is because he don't want to see it. So please, FIX THIS BUG!!!
I find it very hard to believe that I'm the only one who is faced with this issue.
I didn't mean to suggest you are. Just that it's never happened to me.
Not every Premiere Pro user comes here, even if they have a problem. I can think of two other forums where PP users might post.
Jim, I see that you are an user with a lot of experience in this forum. So just for this I tell you respectfully that I don't know what to understand by "that it's never happened to me".
You mean that you made the test with the "Bars and Tone" on the timeline, choose RGB Parade in Program monitor, applied Three Way Color Corrector on the Bars and Tone and enabling/disabling the "effect" you don't see anything changed in the RGB Parade?!? This is very strange for me because it just means that we, who have seen this anomaly/bug, are just 4 "idiots" who see something that in reality dosen't exist. And it's not true. You see, while we are writing here, another Premiere Pro editor gave a "Like" to one of the videos uploaded, writing "you're right". So one more "idiot". Come on man... this is impossible.
Anyway, it's a pity that in this forum the participation is not desired on these type of topics in which you may find and show possible bugs.
I will check this out in my system later today when at the studio.
You have well demonstrated your point (issue) .
I have seen similar level changes when effects have been applied. Kind of a "pre set up" ...but I have never noticed the hue shift.
Will look closer and report back
...and Jims comment only stated that he does not have the same issue and suggested you could check out the other Premiere Forums as well.
(Doesnt pay to get to "sensitive" around here Hewlett ...so let it go.)
Your participation is desired if it shows a bug or what ever.
I can confirm this on my system, changes can be seen in RGB Parade etc. but not in "real" video (in my case). But I totally agree with you, Hewlet_Zar, this shouldn't happen and have to be fixed. Btw. I tried native Adobe projects and Blackmagic projects - same results.
CS5. I cannot see differences in video, and shifts in scopes are small. DV is less sensitive than AVCHD and XDCAM.
Variables to track may include such things as presence of CUDA (on or software only) and Preview selection from project settings.
Do the changes appear on export?
Stan, it's true that this differences are sometimes hard to detect. For example, I noticed this issue in a certain video where appears a person with a grey coat. And you should know that it is easier to notice on the midtones from a video. But above all, the fact that you also see this changes (even smalls) in the RGB Parade, it's just enough for realize that is not normal/usual. I don't work/edit DV video, but I confirm that the same thing happens with AVCHD/.mp4/.mts/.m2ts at different resolution and framerate.
About the video card, for exemple Sony Vegas recognize my video card, Premiere Pro doesn't. So I can't activate the MPE. But two of my friends who confirmed the same issue/bug have MPE activated. So with or without the problem is the same.
"Do the changes appear on export?"
In my case, if I don't activate the Maximum Bit Depth in the sequence settings, yes, the changes appear on the export. If I activate the Maximum Bit Depth in the sequence setting, do not appear. But, saying one more time, with or without, this issue can influence in a negative way on the eding process. We mustn't forget that the professional way of editing is based on the Scopes (RGB Parade/Vectorscope/YC Waveform...), not on the "eye". And the Scopes show an anormal change on the colours of the video once applied one of the effects of the bin Color Correction (Three Way Color Corrector, Fast Color Corrector, Color Balance HLS, RGB Curves, etc...).
I checked using a synthetic clip and the issue exists for me also ...but not in all the Color correctors.
Solution ..avoid the one(s) that have the issue.
Apart from Levels in PPRO....I usually CC and Grade critical work in Resolve. ( waiting for Adobe Speedgrade to emerge)
"Solution ..avoid the one(s) that have the issue."
shoternz, here it's very hard to avoid one because I noticed that this happens with almost all of the tools froim Color Corrector, the "All Scopes" showed that to me (Three Way Color Corrector, Fast Color Corrector, Color Balance HLS, Change Color, Change to Color...., even with the Brightness&Contrast the Scopes show some changes).
It doesn't only influence the tones of the image/video once applied one of the Color Correction "effects", but also changes a little bit even the distribution (if I may say so) of the pixels in the video. This thing can be checked very easy zooming the Program Monitor at 100% for exemple, and enabling/desabling simultaneously Three Way Color Corrector or another tool, and you can see in the Preview how the pixels are moving around.
Anyway, it's very strange and more than that, is anormal. Is possible to make a decent color correction through the dynamic link to After Effects but of course, this is really painful. Thanks for your answear shooternz.
My experience is that they are taken into account. When a bug is unclear, I have been contacted by the staff member asking either why it matters, or regarding their not being able to replicate something.
They do not indicate whether they consider it a bug or share the list of bugs.
There is more particpation on the list by Adobe employees (than, say, 3 years ago), and often very forthcoming descriptions of issues.
I describe the bug sufficient for them to replicate (yours does not need to be long), and I provide a link to a thread like this for added information.
Yes, I've been seeing something similar ever since I "upgraded" from CS4 to CS5 >> CS5.5.
Lay my video into the edit timeline (.mpeg). Add an effect, any effect although I tend to use, Proc Amp, Sharpen and RGB Curves. Correct the video, using scope and video scope, to legal levels 0.7 video, set blacklevel, colour correct using scope and subjective assessment using monitor.
As a result of using effects, my timeline bar goes yellow. And as sometimes (especially, if I have used an After Effects Link) the video playback can be a little jerky (I use a GTX 580 graphics card - i7, 24GB RAM), I render (timeline bar goes greeen) and playback is fine.
What I see after the timeline is rendered is my video waveform scope values increase by as much as 5-10%. This change is seen across all scopes.
If I change ANY value in the effects, the video value returns to that previous, correct level. Change the effects parameter back to the previously rendered value, and I see the scope value increase to that previously seen.
I do not notice a visual change in the output program monitor, but it is quite noticable in the Prem Pro reference scopes.
Now, please do not tell me this "bug" has been corrected in CS6, as I have no intention in "upgrading" again and handing over more money to Adobe just yet. Clealry, this is a "bug" and should have been fixed in an update, not fixed in the next release.
The annoying thing about this is that I have no idea using the Prem Pro reference monitoring whether my video levels are correct, or are indeed 5-10% over-driven in the video - hard to say.
Advice needed please.
I have had this exact same issue and it is alarming, to the extent that I will not longer be colour grading with Premiere. If one enables maximum bit depth in the sequence then the actual image appears to not change at all with the application of the various effects. HOWEVER using an RGB parade the change is revealed. This is an issue!
I was wondering if this issue was ever resolved. I'm having the same problem in CS5. I see you posted this last year but I've been searching off and on for a month or more for a discussion about this. I see the same thing in the RGB parade scope. It seems to slightly increase color saturation when I play the clip in the timeline and also when I click my mouse on the line beside ''opacity'' I see the clip with no saturation change .If I then click on the line below beside '' time remapping'' or hit the spacebar to play, it increases the saturation again. This is happening with no effects on the clip. I have to really over saturate the clip to get normal saturation on the final export. So what I see is not what I get for color. I Thought I could use PP to edit with and color in another app, but it's not usable like this if it's changing color saturation when I play a clip. Any help would be appreciated!
I'm sorry that you have these problems. This bug it will not be solved in the nest CS6.5/CS7, be sure of this. It's simple: was created a new topic called "Top 15 Issues/Fixes Needed in the next Premiere Pro release/update (CS6.5 or CS7)", but nobody mentions this bug, although it is there and was recognized even by Adobe. So you can imagine what will happen.
It's strange but it seems that the world can live with this bug. Use levels and the waveform jumps, use another tool and the scopes jumps, use Colorista and the scopes jumps, use Twixtor and the scopes jumps. Use Media Composer, FCPX or Vegas Pro 12 and the scopes don't jumps without reason like in Premiere.
Thanks for the quick response. Wow....This is not good news. I was really hoping you were going to tell me the bug was fixed. I can't keep buying software that doesn't do what it's supposed to. I'm not sure where to go from here. I need a video editor that's not buggy!
I chose to work only in Vegas Pro 12. The balance price-quality is very good. I regret that I had to give up Premiere, I still have projects that could be edited in it. But I can not accept and live with this bug, even if it seems that others can do it so easily.
What is really annoying is that on this forum are people which try to justify what is unjustified. Just apply levels, the waveform jumps unjustified and they say this is normal.When the luminance is 110 IRE and you only apply levels, the waveform jumps unjustified around to 100 IRE, but this is just a lie, in fact the luminance continue to be at 110 IRE. Is just one example.
I used Vegas pro 8 a few years ago but didn't have a very powerful computer. I liked Vegas back then . I may look into it. I have a Mac now so I would have to set up a dual boot system to run Windows....more money! I know most people don't mention Vegas for editing like all of the other so called pro apps, but if it does the job that's what I want. judging from your last comment it must be stable software.
When applying Colorista II and without changing anything else (just applying), can be seen in the preview of the soft how sudden changes in color tones. For example, the gray tone becomes a little more green, but also can be seen very easy a change in the other color tones too. In fact even RGB Parade show the same thing.
You just apply Colorista II and the RGB Parade jumps. And all this in Premiere Pro CS6.03
Yes, I tried it in my CS5.5. I can see the changes in picture and RGB Parade when using the build-in 3-way color correction, but I see nearly no changes when putting colorista on a clip (only a very slight change in RGB Parade - VERY slight, not noticeable in picture - yes, I tried gray tones). Maybe CS5.5 is different in this point to CS6.
One thing, did you use the trial version of colorista? I'm not sure but doesn't the trial version make a red cross (or something like that) over the clips? This would of course change the RGB parade.
The red line has nothing to do with the fact that Premiere is trial or not. The red line shows that Premiere Pro can't render the frames of the sequence as fast as needed to play them back in real time. Anyway, Colorista II is not GPU accelerated unfortunately, no matter that Premiere is installed trial or not.
I have friends who work in Premiere, some with MPE enabled, others not. I got in touch with them and asked if they notice how RGB Parade jumps when applied Colorista II, MBLooks, Color Balance, Change to Color, Brightness & Contrast, Twixtor. The Waveform jumps when one just apply Levels for example. All confirmed that yes, the scopes jumps unjustified when applying one of these.
I am surprised that the Adobe team has been able to fix this bug for some of the tools/effects, but not for the rest and for the most important plugins. We have noted that any tool/plugin that doesn't have the "YUV" sign gives this kind of problem. Do not forget that Steve Hoeg (Adobe team) pointed out the problem: "converting from YUV Rec. 709 of the source files to YUV Rec. 601 as these particular effects required".
Actually I do see the slight jump in the RGB parade for Colorista. I've never seen any change in the footage itself, though, so it's very minimal.
I saw no change at all in the scopes using the Fast Color Corrector, RGB Color Corrector, RGB Curves or the Three way Color Corrector in CS6.
Yes Jim, you're right. No changes in the scopes when one just apply RGB Curves, Fast Color Corrector, RGB Color Corrector or the Three way Color Corrector (last three thanks to the new update 6.03). I already wrote that Adobe team has been able to fix this bug for some of the tools/effects.
But Brightness&Contrast? Change Color? Color Balance? Levels? MBLooks? Twixtor? Colorista II? Does it seem normally that all scopes or just one of them jump when you just apply one of these effects/tools? Not to say that in some situations even the tones change (especially in shadows&midtones).
You say this is something "very minimal". I say it is not so. I don't find normally to make a very detalied CC with Three way Color Corrector and then when applying Colorista/MBLooks, for example, the scopes jump and inclusively some tones may be influenced. And I left clear examples in this topic where you can see that this is possible. I don't know if this is "very minimal" or not, but is really so impossible to edit in Premiere without this "very minimal" issue?!? How can it be possible in other softs (Edius, Media Composer, Vegas Pro) and in Premiere not?!?
One more thing: many of us use intermediate codecs in the editing process. Do you find normally that a AVCHD video have the lumninance at approximately 110IRE, to export it directly to Cineform and then import it in Premiere, and the waveform shows the luminance at 100IRE?!? How is this possible?!? So the AVCHD video have a 110IRE luminance, you convert this video to Cineform without changing anything, and then this Cineform video have the luminance at 100IRE?!? And anyone can verify this example.
So, how can one trust in this soft?!?
And anyone can verify this example.
I confirm that some superwhites clipping happens on transcoding to about any 4:4:4 production codec. When I need to preserve superwhites, I transcode to OpenEXR 32-bit - that gives mathematically identical pixels' values, which results in pure black solid with no a single artifact for 'Difference' test in linearised 32-bit colour space (all my transcodings take place in After Effects so as to speed up complex compositing work, I don't transcode anything when I don't do compositing work).
You say this is something "very minimal". I say it is not so.
For my footage, I've never noticed any difference using Colorista. I didn't even realize there was an affect until I switched to scopes. So while I agree it's a problem that needs resolving, for my projects using my footage, it hasn't been a show stopper. That fact should NOT stop Adobe from fixing the issue.