Output of vectors in print

Jan 19, 2012 10:36 AM

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  15. Eugene Tyson,

  

  Jan 20, 2012 9:59 AM   in reply to Gernot Hoffmann

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  Gernot Hoffmann wrote:

   

   

  Please, can you give us a little more information about the background of you

  question?

   

  Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

   

  Thanks for the reply, that's nearly the same sort of workflow I would have. And what you said about formats is what I know to be true too.

   

  Basically the background is, I often frequent several creative, graphic design etc. forums, and I often see people give the advice of sending a PSD to a printers.

   

  I often inform them that if it has text layers, vector shapes or vector masks to send a Photoshop PDF with Photoshop editing capabilites, as a RGB with PDFx4... which would give it a greater flexibility, in my opinion.

   

  The reason being is the vectors would be maintained.

   

  I can't imagine a printers pushing a PSD through their RIP especially large format... not sure if that happens I am not a large format printer or designer, I design books and mostly for litho. But I can imagine the downtime on a 1gb PSD file would be huge.

   

  I just want to get my head straight on the facts rather than hearsay. Where I normally reside in the InDesign forums, I thought I'd pop over to visit the photoshop gurus to get their take on how the formats work.

   

  It's been a long time since I was in college, and a long time since I ran a RIP or did impositions of any sort.

   

  I'm just getting all my ducks in a row for myself.

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  16. Eugene Tyson,

  

  Jan 20, 2012 10:05 AM   in reply to Marian Driscoll

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  That's what Dov Isaacs said over on the InDesign forums a while ago

   

  InDesign could be "taught" to deal with the vector and text data within a PSD file. Such a feature would need to be prioritized with all the other features users request. Note that what is fairly problematic would be retaining as layers any of the adjustment layers.

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  17. Eugene Tyson,

  

  Jan 20, 2012 10:12 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

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  Thanks everyone for your input. It has certainly cleared things up, it's been a while since I went through it in depth. And over time things get foggy.

   

  I appreciate everyone's thoughts, and I know I haven't totally lost my mind yet

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  18. Eugene Tyson,

  

  Jan 20, 2012 10:13 AM   in reply to Gernot Hoffmann

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  To be clear - I was talking specifically about Vector Text, Vector Masks, Vector Shapes.

   

   

  Also can someone confirm that Smart Objcts, Photoshop PDF or not, will rasterise to the image resolution on output?

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  19. Marian Driscoll,

  

  Jan 20, 2012 11:15 AM   in reply to Gernot Hoffmann

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  Gernot Hoffmann wrote:

   

  ...Please, quote a reference...

  I can't locate references but it is indeed possible to pack a vector clipping path in TIFF (or even JPG) and then have that vector path recognized in InDesign, Pagemaker, or QuarkXPress. Try it.

  Eugene Tyson wrote:

   

  ...Also can someone confirm that Smart Objcts, Photoshop PDF or not, will rasterise to the image resolution on output?

  Isn't that something that you can confirm for yourself by placing a SO in a Photoshop image with insanely low PPI?

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  20. Eugene Tyson,

  

  Jan 20, 2012 12:15 PM   in reply to Marian Driscoll

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  Tis - and I have. But others claim otherwise and I'm baffled. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong.. I doubt it.

   

  I do know Smart Objects are rasterised to the image file res - it was more for a peace of mind sorta thing.

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  21. Gernot Hoffmann,

  

  Jan 21, 2012 5:15 AM   in reply to Marian Driscoll

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  Marian, you're right:

   

  It's possible in PhS to define a path as clipping path and to save the

  image together with the path as TIFF.

  The clipping is not immediately shown, but placing in InDesign makes

  it obvious.

   

  Other programs, here Paint and the Windows Image & Fax system,

  ignore the clipping effect.

   

  My guess: it's not a generic feature of the TIFF format, but an 'abuse'

  of metadata fields for arbitrary purposes, here by Adobe.

   

  I'm not really interested to digest the file format specs.

   

  Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

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  22. PECourtejoie,

  

  Jan 21, 2012 5:50 AM   in reply to Gernot Hoffmann

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  Gernot, (I don't know if other users were taunting you by using your Titles, I think remembering that you prefer to be adressed without them) with all due respect, this is not secret at all, I remember using it from Photoshop 4 with the infamous Quark 3.1: http://www.sketchpad.net/quarkpath.htm

  It is a very common practice in the print industry. (As long as it still exists.)

   

  As for Vectors in Photoshop, If you can send the same Letter size 4 ppi file with a vector circle to both a postscript laser and a non-postscript inkjet printers, you will see a big difference...
  I remember making the test long time ago.

   

  But the underlying question here seems to be what InDesign can do with Photoshop vectors, so the best place might indeed be the InDesign forum.

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  23. Gernot Hoffmann,

  

  Jan 21, 2012 8:17 AM   in reply to PECourtejoie

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  Pierre, conversations are expected without titles, please.

   

  I think we can clarify everything, step by step.

   

  From my post #7 it should have been already clear, that vector paths can be reproduced

  only by PostScript devices.

   

  I know TIFF as a professional raster graphics format. I didn't know that it can reproduce

  clipping paths. Now let's investigate this issue further:

   

  (1)

  http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=tiff%20%22file%20spec%22&source= web&cd=1&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpartners.adobe.com%2Fpublic%2F developer%2Fen%2Ftiff%2FTIFF6.pdf&ei=Yt0aT4f1A4-g-wbyk42uCg&usg=AFQjCN Gp5Fw5VVGmAJLTd2PCmR-Y7Rr2cQ&cad=rja

  (2) quoted from (1):

  "Some image manipulation applications support notions of transparency masks and

  soft-edge masks. The associated alpha information described in this section is different

  from this unassociated alpha information in many ways, most importantly:

  Associated alpha describes opacity or coverage at each pixel, while clipping-related

  alpha information describes a boolean relationship. That is, associated alpha can

  specify fractional coverage at a pixel, while masks specify either 0 or 100 percent coverage."

   

  (1) refers to the file specs for TIFF, dated June 3 1992. This version appears on top

  of the Google search results. Therefore I'm assuming that it is the actual version as well.

   

  (2) tells us, the clipping path information seems to be converted into an alpha channel.

  This is very different to a true clipping path - the 'clipping related alpha information' doesn't

  concern scalable vector graphics, but simply on/off transparency.

   

  I think there is no doubt, that TIFF cannot reproduce/maintain arbitrary vector paths, and

  now it seems, that the 'vector clipping paths' are simulated by alpha transparency.

   

  Personally I had never any doubt that TIFF can contain alpha channels.

   

  Objections with references are welcome!

   

  Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

   

  By the way: the word path appears in (1) only once: as a part of sympathetic.

   

  Message was edited by: Gernot Hoffmann

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  24. PECourtejoie,

  

  Jan 21, 2012 8:47 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

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  Gernot, I should have drawn a line after my first paragraph, as I was replying specifically about the "secret" mention, noting that the biggest competitor recognized clipping maths. Sorry for the confusion. I can't check the specs on this small screen. But I trust your analysis, and guess that we will have to fait for Chris Cox or another employee for à definitive answer.

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  25. Paulo Skylar,

  

  Jan 21, 2012 12:10 PM   in reply to Gernot Hoffmann

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  Gernot,

  Some things I can speculate on and some things I consider fact - they can be demonstrated.

   

  Fact 1: Photoshop can save paths in jpegs  -  multiple paths and they need not be "clipping" paths

  Fact 2: Photoshop can save paths in tiffs     -  multiple paths and they need not be "clipping" paths

  Fact 3: These paths data can be read and used by Indesign (usually for clipping masks) and possibly other Adobe products  as well as any other app that  wants to do the binary detective work.

   

  Speculation 1: Adobe includes these data in similar ways in both formats.

  Speculation 2: The methodology used is not a standard extension of either format.  While I would not label this practice as format "abuse",  it is certainly not part of the standard and I suspect the data are also not part of the official metadata nor are they alpha channels. I believe they are stored in image resource blocks.

   

  Paulo

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  26. Eugene Tyson,

  

  Jan 21, 2012 12:13 PM   in reply to Paulo Skylar

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  Can we go back on topic please. The topic is not about what format stores clipping paths.

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