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Community Help Posts

Jan 28, 2012 9:06 AM

  Latest reply: Claudio González, Feb 29, 2012 3:11 AM
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 4, 2012 10:42 AM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Unfortunately, I'm seeing the same behavior today. A few CH posts with no replies. Back to support...

     
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  • Pierre Courtejoie
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    Feb 4, 2012 11:05 AM   in reply to Claudio González

    Sorry, Claudio, I deleted the posts without any original question...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 4, 2012 2:34 PM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Appears to be a different issue. Similar results, but a different cause. Still working on it...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 4, 2012 6:36 PM   in reply to Pierre Courtejoie

    PECourtejoie wrote:

     

    Sorry, Claudio, I deleted the posts without any original question...

    A pity, Pierre. The articles were in Spanish, and this isn't at all frequent in these forums... Similar to the situation in the forum in French, I would guess.

     
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  • Pierre Courtejoie
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    Feb 5, 2012 2:07 AM   in reply to Claudio González

    At that time, it was the guidance we received, to delete them, as the system was buggy. I don't know if John's post suggest that the comments would appear on existing posts, or if new posts would get the question.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 8, 2012 5:44 PM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Yesterday we got a new post from Community Help in the forum in Spanish:

     

    http://forums.adobe.com/thread/959809?tstart=0

     

    As fas as I can remember, the only change with previous (and undeleted) posts is that this one has a descriptive title in Spanish. However, and as expected by me, the thread was promptly used to post an unrelated question and its answer(s). May I suggest again that these posts are either closed, or open only for posts from selected participants?

     
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  • Pierre Courtejoie
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    Feb 9, 2012 1:37 AM   in reply to Claudio González

    Claudio, this one seems to be working fine, in that the original question is there. Of course, as it was the case in the help files, the question might not be related to the article at hand, but it has been quickly answered.

    In the past, those posts were confined to the community help (you can see that for the CS4 pages) and fewer people were answering them, and only with text. Now, the Community Help Moderators can use the features of the forum, other users can answer, and the forums get more visits/answers. The only downside I see is when people post corrections to the pages, or link to additional content. It might be confusing for the regular users of the forum, hence the explanation posts I made in some forums.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 9, 2012 6:11 PM   in reply to Pierre Courtejoie

    Pierre, I fail to see what is gained by Community Help by the addition of unrelated questions and answers -which can lead to long arguments...

     
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  • Pierre Courtejoie
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    Feb 10, 2012 2:15 AM   in reply to Claudio González

    Claudio, the issue was that the commenting system to the help files was meant to get user additions to the help files, with links to tutorials, corrections, and suggestions.

    But many users started to use it as an help forum. Then it became the majority of the posts in help, being noticed only by the moderators, since other users might not know what page has a comment on. (unless they reverse-engineer the RSS feeds to the help files, but that is another story.)

    Seeing that, and knowing that the user-to-user forums are meant to answer questions, questions in the help pages now open a discussion here, that is mirrored in the help files.

     

    Do you suggest that the discussion should not appear in ACH at all?

     

    Addendums to the help files can still be done here, and as you said, it will also benefit the users of U2U.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 10, 2012 3:52 AM   in reply to Pierre Courtejoie

    Pierre, I am almost a complete ignorant on the inner workings of these forums, so I may be asking the impossible. What I am suggesting is that the help files posted in the product forums are not open to everybody. Obviously they should be open to moderators, but as for participants, perhaps only to a selected group suggested by the respective moderators. Or maybe to participants with more than -say- 100 posts. My idea is to reduce as much as possible the possibility of transforming those helpful files into irrelevant and long discussions.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 16, 2012 4:06 AM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Last night a new CHP appeared in the Forum in Spanish:

     

    http://forums.adobe.com/thread/963410?tstart=0

     

    As there is first a CHP and then a question from a participant, both with the same posting date and time, I am confused. Is this the question that the CHP is addressing, or is this a case of a participant using a CHP as a thread to post further questions?

     

    I apologize if I am being more dumb than usual.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 16, 2012 5:21 AM   in reply to Claudio González

    Yep, nowadays when somebody posts a question on the help files their question is turned into a forum thread started by "Community Help" and their question is put as the first post in that thread. This way the question (and all the answers) are present in both the help files and the forum.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 16, 2012 6:26 AM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    I am with Claudio here: the appearance is rather confusing.

     

    This is quite well expressed in post #2 here:

     

    http://forums.adobe.com/thread/962626?tstart=0

     

    I hope there is a way to change it.

     

    By the way: are these threads the ones in which we shall enjoy the absence of points, or who will decide whether the questions have been answered?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 16, 2012 6:44 AM   in reply to Jacob Bugge

    The Help Files was where the whole point system was first implemented so why wouldn't there be points awarded in those threads?:P Points are awarded as in any normal thread marked as a question, by the OP or by the moderators, it's just that the thread is also mirrored on the Help Files.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 3:08 AM   in reply to Zeno Bokor

    Zeno,

     

    The reason for my question is that the one with the question is not the OP: the ghostly entity Community Help is. So it seems that the one getting the help is in no position to communicate appreciation in other than words, just as in the days of the fair forums, and that the OP and the moderators are (one and) the same who will be judging the threads.

     

    The Help Files was where the whole point system was first implemented

     

    So it is no wonder they appear funny over here, see the link in post #28.

     

    It may be more tedious (for a while), but the way we do in this forum, sending posters to the right place, would seem a valid option, less tedious if the ones needing help are led to realize that they may find answers from other users to questions of/like their own.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 5:25 AM   in reply to Jacob Bugge

    I agree on all counts. Except that, in their present form, CPHs drift down unless transformed in endless discussions, and so they can eventually make it to the Archives, and finally disappear. And, is it really easier to get a hit when performing a search if the answer is in a CHP?

     
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  • Pierre Courtejoie
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    Feb 17, 2012 5:37 AM   in reply to Jacob Bugge

    What would be the best wording?

    "The post below this one is a question or a comment posted in relation this page of the help files :"

    "The post below was posted on this page: "

     

    Nice humoristic banter, BTW, on the linked pages. Sorry, but the help file one might need some cleaning, so that only relevant posts show up.(posts might be moved to another thread, if funny/off topic threads are not frowned upon in the AI forums.

    (If not, there is the lounge)

    The goal is not at all heavy handed moderation, especially when there is a good ambiance in the forums, but for the help files to stay informative.

     
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  • Pierre Courtejoie
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    Feb 17, 2012 5:39 AM   in reply to Claudio González

    Hi, Claudio. Threads might drift off the forums, but they stay on the help pages. Useful for relevant and on-topic posts. I don't know if they will be searchable by Google and co.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 12:06 PM   in reply to Pierre Courtejoie

    Pierre,

     

    Chatting and banter have formed an integral and vital part of the Illustrator forum(s) as long as anyone remembers, going back into the previous millennium; even the most serious contributors, and (earlier) hosts, have taken part from time to time.

     

    This may have been part of the reason that we have enjoyed a very helpful and friendly forum.

     

    The two (Win and Mac) Illustrator forums were seemlessly merged in 2009, with no complaints or grudges; I only realized when I saw the many unknown posters who obviously knew one another, and the different keystroke instructions.

     

    I remember no deleted posts, apart from the recent obvious spam.

     

    Therefore I am absolutely certain that any deletion/moving of posts in/from the Illustrator forum would be considered a hostile attack on our integrity.

     

    You may see clear signs of it already, in these two threads (the former linked to already):

     

    http://forums.adobe.com/message/4213337?tstart=0#4213337

    http://forums.adobe.com/thread/964087?tstart=0

     

    And as it appears, the first posters had been unaware of their being beamed  to another place, and just as mystified as the natives.

     
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  • Pierre Courtejoie
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    Feb 17, 2012 12:17 PM   in reply to Jacob Bugge

    I realize this, Jacob. But I was careful to state on the announcement, that threads from Community Help might need to be curated.

    I don't know how best to handle this carefully, I remember some issues with heavy handed moderation in the Ps forum.

     

    You think that even a movement of post would be taken as an attack? even if the reason is explained?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 12:49 PM   in reply to Pierre Courtejoie

    You think that even a movement of post would be taken as an attack? even if the reason is explained?

     

    I am quite sure, Pierre. Continuance and coherence are seen as essential.

     

    It may be more fruitful if those in need of help realize that they get it in the Illustrator forum, and that they can get help there with other things: they may wonder less, and they may enjoy whichever fun is made.

     

    Is that not possible?

     

    All that said, the first Community Help thread started OT because it was seen as OT in the first place, with no one knowing the context. If the first poster specifies the question, I am sure it will be back on track.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 1:13 PM   in reply to Pierre Courtejoie

    Yes, forum posts made in help or the forum are searchable by Google (as you may have found), however, comments in the old system were not.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 1:24 PM   in reply to Pierre Courtejoie

    Pierre, I have just lost a long answer that was not posted because it did not have a title (I never had to add a title to an answer), and of course there was no auto saved copy of at least part of it. I will therefore try to reconstruct the basis of my wild idea, based on what I see in other (non-Adobe) forums where moderation is very heavy, but always with at least a short explaining sentence, and never anonymous.

     

    Perhaps CH posts could be ended with something like this:

     

     

    This help file was (written in response to)/(motivated by) the following question:

    (Full original message reproduced here, including original date and time).

    Messages complementing the information of this help file are welcome but

    messages not related with the main topic will be deleted.

     

    Just an opinion. Incidentally, in the forums I mention, no discussion regarding moderation is allowed. Any such discussion must be carried through private messages, involving other moderators if necessary. And there are no anonymous moderators in those forums; all of them are duly identified as such.

     

    This time I am saving a copy of my message before attempting to post it, just in case.

     
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  • Pierre Courtejoie
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    Feb 17, 2012 1:26 PM   in reply to Jacob Bugge

    Continuance and coherence are seen as essential.

    What if the first post has the initial post as an image, and an explanation, sort of a carbon-copy of the original thread?

     

    Sorry, every forum is specific, but it sounds like the AI forum is an holy place worth more than the others... it is not meant disrespecfully at all, but I know you realize that all forums have ACH posts in there, and I was wondering why a special case should be made of a particular forum.

     
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  • Pierre Courtejoie
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    Feb 17, 2012 1:32 PM   in reply to Claudio González

    Strict forum, Claudio! Rule one: Thou shalt not speak of the Fight Club

    I don't know who all the moderators are, indeed, not knowing who is one is a question. Also, some Community Professionals are not moderators/hosts!

    I don't know if it is good or not. I just try to use those "powers" with care and goodwill, and try to respect all sensibilities.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 1:44 PM   in reply to Pierre Courtejoie

    Shame I don't use AI (Can't make any sence of it came with my CS5.5 WEB premium package). I sure would have enjoyed being in the AI Forums. That more like it should be  run. Answer questions but if get a littele off topic that’s okay to.  Unlike The Acrobat forums  having possibly 4  and sperated by Computer Platform being split into 10 or more.  and everyone dumped to get togethe and if you say so much as how are you today its taken off.

     
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  • Pierre Courtejoie
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    Feb 17, 2012 2:22 PM   in reply to Jacob Bugge

    The Ps forums also had a lot of funny threads, but at one point, some decided to move them to the lounge, that became the forum lounge.

    Here is a nice one that popped up recently: http://forums.adobe.com/message/4214126#4214126

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 2:47 PM   in reply to Pierre Courtejoie

    Sorry, but I give up. For the second time I have lost a long message because

    Captura.JPG

     
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  • Pierre Courtejoie
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    Feb 17, 2012 3:04 PM   in reply to Claudio González

    Could you share details about your setup, Claudio? What browser?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 3:11 PM   in reply to Pierre Courtejoie

    Pierre,

     

    Sorry, every forum is specific, but it sounds like the AI forum is an holy place worth more than the others... it is not meant disrespecfully at all, but I know you realize that all forums have ACH posts in there, and I was wondering why a special case should be made of a particular forum.

     

    I believe all forums are holy, no one more than others; and I had no clue about the Community Help threads until they started appearing in the Illustrator forum.

     

    Quite frankly I see little point in our seeing which article(s) gave rise to the question of each thread: either the question is too woolly to answer without clarification by the one asking it, or clear enough to answer without any background. In Illustrator, and probably in many/most other applications, there are almost always different ways of doing things in Illustrator, unless user specific decisions/requirements, or some fundamental indispensible rules, apply, so guesswork or initial clarifying questions by the helpers often form part of the threads.

     

    For these reasons, I believe that it is better to refer those with questions to the relevant forums, as is done in this forum, and then maybe (have them) post links to successful threads back to Community Help, which may also make them more intelligible there.

     

    Is that not possible?

     

    You might also see it this way: the questions raised by the articles may be of two kinds:

     

    One kind may actually be about the article, including its structure and contents, therefore giving rise to considerations about supplementing/amendmending/whatever, but hardly relevant in the context of the forum in question.

     

    The other kind may be questions that might just as well be completely independent of the article, and therefore more suitably dealt with in the relevant forum(s) without reference to any article.

     

    I have no knowledge about, and therefore no opinion on, the Community Help.

     

    Edit: A fine thread. Thank you for sharing, Pierre.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 5:42 PM   in reply to Pierre Courtejoie

    Pierre, I'm out of town at the time, using latest Explorer 9 under Win 7 and through a slow mobile connection, although I'm mostly a Mac man.

     

    My second lost mail gave the reasons for my previous suggestion. It also acknowledged that many -but not all- moderators are like you: considerate, corteous and good willing. And, being a man who has lived the largest part of his life in the previous century, I complained again by the totally unnecessary anonymity of moderators. As all in my generation, I was taught to face my responsibilities.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 18, 2012 4:20 AM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Well, here is a new example of a CH post in the forum in Spanish:

     

    http://forums.adobe.com/message/4213698?tstart=0#4213698

     

    Some comments:

     

    1. It's not clear which product the discussion refers to, unless one happens to notice the name "illustrator" buried in the middle of the link.
    2. The link takes one to a multi page document, each with a different help topic. I gave up counting after 12 pages.
    3. The help post is followed by a message asking a question that, for me at least, is difficult to guess if it is directly related whith the topic in the title of the help message, or to that of one of the other pages in the link, or is a new question. This message has the same posting date and time than the opening message.
    4. As this second message is in Spanish and the text of the help message is in English, it is easy to be led to think that it is indeed a new question. This happened to Federico, the most knowledgeable and helpful participant in the forum in Spanish, the author of the third message, one of the many people in that forum who still do not understand CH posts.

     

    My previous suggestion on this was crippled because I left out my reasons for making it after having to rewrite my message, and gave up when I lost a second long message; and also because the system graciously eliminated the blank lines that clarified its structure.

     

    Quite frankly, I think that the CH messages may be a very good idea, but they certainly need a lot of polishing. In my opinion, at least. And at least when, in the forum in Spanish (one forum for all Adobe products, with no subforum of any kind and no moderators, remember?), they misteriously and unexpextedly fall down out of the blue sky.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 29, 2012 3:11 AM   in reply to Claudio González

    Same CH thread again,

     

    http://forums.adobe.com/message/4236570#4236570

     

    showing how confusing the situation can get. After Federico answered in message #2 the question in Spanish by natan70 in message #1, natan posted more details in message #3. Then Federico gave a more precise answer in message #4, which natan thanked in message #5, stating that this had solved his problem. And I, in message #6, I asked natan to mark the question as answered, forgetting that he isn't the originator of the thread...

     



     
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