Adobe Community: Message List - PSE11 is out!

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 23:09:40 GMT

Just set up an alternative very powerful perspective control in PSE10, which is DxO's new Viewpoint, and is set up to run as an alternative plugin in the Filter menu of PSE.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:56:20 GMT

Warunicorn wrote:
The things that bothered me about PSP the most were its sloppy interface (it tries to be Photoshop for obvious reasons)

I became so thoroughly disgusted with X3's bugs that I looked for alternatives and dumped it when I found PSE9. I don't remember much about the X3 interface, but X5 seems similar. I like the fact that I can choose to use small icons on the toolbar and menu bar, and the auto-hide feature for the (docked) Layers panel, etc. is a joy to use. Makes for a clean-looking setup.

Warunicorn wrote:
and that horrible Protexis licensing scheme they used. (It installs a service along with PSP without even telling you about it; this service runs in the background to ensure you have a genuine copy of PSP. If you attempt to disable it, PSP will not run.)

Yeah, but it's not consuming any CPU cycles, and I'll just trust Win7 to manage it's (Protexis') use of RAM.

Ken

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:38:43 GMT

photodrawken wrote:

Hi Bob,

I haven't used the PSPX5 organizing much at all, and I seriously doubt whether it can import PSE catalogs. However, it seems like the tags and ratings I told PSE to write to the images are read and used by the PSPX5 organizer.

The good news is that you can have the best of both worlds -- keep PSE installed and set PSPX5 in the PSE Organizer as an "Additional editing application". Then, you can continue to use the PSE Organizer and enjoy the benefits of the PSPX5 Editor. At your leisure, you can poke and prod and push the PSPX5 image manager to see if it suits your needs.

Ken

The things that bothered me about PSP the most were its sloppy interface (it tries to be Photoshop for obvious reasons) and that horrible Protexis licensing scheme they used. (It installs a service along with PSP without even telling you about it; this service runs in the background to ensure you have a genuine copy of PSP. If you attempt to disable it, PSP will not run.)

Still, at least they let you use a dark color for the UI. xD

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:30:29 GMT

photodrawken wrote:

Warunicorn wrote:

And still no kerning/spacing of text like I requested a couple versions back? Really?
Agreed. Here's a link to my character tracking script, however:
http://forums.adobe.com/message/3972551#3972551

Added:
The reasonably priced Elements+ add-in also adds more advanced text handling:
http://elementsplus.net/

Ken

Message was edited by: photodrawken to add comment.

Actually, I forgot to mention that I do, indeed, use that script, Ken (and thank you very much for that). I have it bookmarked myself just in case anyone asks about it.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:22:33 GMT

Barbara & Ken,

Thanks for the response & pictures.

Bob

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:52:27 GMT

Organizer:

Sorry, the photo insert thing here is acting up. I'll put the editor in another reply. This is the mac version. The only difference in windows is that the menus at the very top of the screen here (File, Edit, etc) are at the top of the PSE window itself in windows.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:56:24 GMT

Hi Bob,

I haven't used the PSPX5 organizing much at all, and I seriously doubt whether it can import PSE catalogs. However, it seems like the tags and ratings I told PSE to write to the images are read and used by the PSPX5 organizer.

The good news is that you can have the best of both worlds -- keep PSE installed and set PSPX5 in the PSE Organizer as an "Additional editing application". Then, you can continue to use the PSE Organizer and enjoy the benefits of the PSPX5 Editor. At your leisure, you can poke and prod and push the PSPX5 image manager to see if it suits your needs.

Ken

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:57:09 GMT

Editor:

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:42:56 GMT

Dave & Ken,

Does PSPX5 accept PSE catalogs for conversion into the PSPX5 format?

I have not gone to the trouble of downloading the trial version of PSE11, but from comments posted here it sounds like the UI is much less professional looking than PSE9 or 10.

I really depend on PSE9 for organizing my 6000 photo database, but if Adobe is going to garbage up the UI, I would be inclined to move to something more professional looking - but whatever that alternative would be, it would have to be capable of accepting and converting my PSE9 catalog. I just have too many hours invested in documenting all my existing photos to lose all of that info.

Could someone post a screen-shot of the PSE11 User Interface?

Bob

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:54:08 GMT

I have had a good look around both PSE 11 and PSPX5, and have purchased PSPX5 today. Wow, what a major difference in functionality and ease-of-use. There are way more tools, etc. than PSE has ever had.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:36:21 GMT

Dave Quail wrote:

In anyone's opinion so far, is it worth the upgrade from elements 10?

For me, the answer is a resounding "No".

The bad User Interface design was the key, and there are three components to it being a "bad" design:

The bright grey colour is distracting and tiring to use when intensely concentrating on editing an image for long periods of time.
The layout of the panels, etc., requires more mouse clicks and forces one to move the cursor across large areas of the screen to click on the activation points, which is much more inefficient than the equivalent steps in PSE10.
The layout wastes a lot of screen space, uses overly large icons, and is filled with large areas of empty, unused space.

In short, the new UI is designed for use on tablets where users try to poke their pudgy fingers at things. It's stupidly ignorant for use on desktops or notebooks where the cursor is precisely controlled by the mouse, trackpad, or graphics tablet.

The new features which are geared towards making some activities (like installing actions, reconnecting missing files, etc.), simpler to use, is a Good Thing. The performance improvements and bug fixes are a very Good Thing. However, those should have been incorporated into a free version 10.1 Service Pack patch, IMO.

So, I got rid of PSE11 within a day of installing it, and was happy to do so. Before re-installing my copy of PSE10, I owed it to myself to do due diligence and look at Corel's PaintShop Pro X5. Wow! Its Editor is a thousand times better than PSE's Editor. It's performance is as good or better than PSE11. It has a Curves adjustment, a Channel Mixer, and a Red/Green/Blue adjustment tool. It's got a fully-featured Camera Raw editing space and all those adjustments (like White Balance, Clarity, etc.) can be simply applied even to PNG files . Its HDR Exposure merge is on a par with the HDR Pro feature of the "big" Photoshop. Full control over text, such as kerning and tracking, and the list goes on and on. I'm not sure that its organizing database will be appropriate for me, since I've not tested it extensively yet, but even if I end up using (and paying for) a separate image organizer, such as Cerious, the PSP X5 editor is worth the price, alone.

So, for less money than PSE11, I'll be switching to PSP X5.

Ken

P.S., The User Interface in PSP X5 allows one to choose 4 shades of grey, from light grey to dark, which simply avoids the "religious" arguments over UI colours. And, when using the dark grey colour, the dropdown sub-menus actually use the same dark grey. What a concept! Something even the $1,000 PS CS6 can't do....

Message was edited by: photodrawken to add postscript.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:59:36 GMT

Dave Quail wrote:

In anyone's opinion so far, is it worth the upgrade from elements 10?

In my opinion, after the first day of testing PSE11 I agree that it is by far the biggest change in any version, and that is agreeing to most comments on the web.

Indepedent commentators stress the fact that the interface has been drastically changed towards the target audience which includes a lot of beginners or occasional users. Two or three key changes : the clear interface, the new 'views' and automated processes.

That alone will appeal to that audience and make old advanced users unhappy to have to learn the new interface.

Let's be clear that I am in the minority camp... I don't like the new clear desk, I won't use any of the new 'views' or automated processes and I feel uneasy while trying to learn the new ways and shortcuts to do what I was used to (I am still using PSE6 besides PSE10...)

I am still prudent while testing the trial version because so many changes may imply new glitches. I was one to hope for bug fixes and ease of use rather than new features. By that time, I consider that a lot has been made to correct bugs or glitches : it's even a good surprise.

Are the new features in editor and Organizer worth the change for me ?

- I was already very pleased with the PSE10 editor. I find the changes useful. Enough to upgrade ?

- The key changes I see in the Organizer are different for my own use : a double sided folder view, a 'missing files' search on par with Lightroom, easy catalog upgrading and more confidence in the bug fixing. That's definitely worth the change, even if I am different from the typical target audience.

I would compare the new features I won't use in PSE11 to the addition of video in DSLR features : many photographers were shocked with the addition of 'impure' video in new cameras and asked for 'photo-only' cameras, hoping for a lesser price... but economic laws say that video addition greatly increased the sales volume, which made cameras cheaper! I am not shocked to use the same software as begginers : I am also in the same league as professionals using Lightroom .AND. Elements

So, is it worth the upgrade for YOU ?

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:20:15 GMT

In anyone's opinion so far, is it worth the upgrade from elements 10?

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 18:31:15 GMT

photodrawken wrote:

MichelBParis wrote:
But I shall never use those 3 new views, they are a waste of display space for me. Just for the fun, try to imagine how much work would be needed to translate my present categories of People, locations and events in the new panel.
One thing I found that requires a lot more effort and "mousing around" in PSE11: try switching back and forth between displaying all tags under the "People" category and all tags under another tag category.

Ken

I must admit I just had a look at the help links given by Hyadav in the other post. There are ways to use the keyword panel I had not imagined.

I am waiting also for the links to the pdf help files.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:49:40 GMT

Thanks Ken...much appreciated!

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:36:42 GMT

You can skew and drag points but in PSE (9 at any rate) only in the

corners (so far as I know). In CS6 I think you can create additional

nodes to give you finer controls on that.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:36:28 GMT

graydl and Dave Quail,

The perspective correction feature in PSE11 is the same as in PSE10 (and is not part of the Crop tool).

I find that the free Perspective Transformations plug-in works well:

http://www.vicanek.de/plugins/perspective.htm

Ken

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:31:13 GMT

There are a number of pano programs for mac, too: hugin, panorama factory, ptgui, etc. I haven't used any of them in a long time so I can't say which are worth it or which are compatible with 10.8 if that's what you're running. PTGUI does some perspective correction, IIRC.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:29:40 GMT

Is there a Perspective Distortion feature as in Photoshop CSx on the Cropping Tool? I am aware of the other one in PSE10, but it is not as powerful. PSPXxx and DxO also have very handy tools for difficult perspective corrections.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:26:29 GMT

Only I am running on os x. Still I could run it in Parallels. I also do

some perspective correction ( I do a lot of architectural photography) and

the tools in CS6 are somewhat better than PSE anyway. I keep turning

down the $299 upgrade offers but maybe not the next time.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:19:47 GMT

graydl wrote:

Anywhere from 3 to 8. The files are 8 bit tiffs converted from Raws in LR. About 25MB each. I use LR for most of my post processing and only use PSE for panos and the occastional removal of items from a photos (posts, signs, etc). Sounds like there is going to be no reason to upgrade for me if it does not improve the Panos. Maybe I will bite the bullet and go to ps6.

If panoramas are the only reason you'll spend the money on PS CS6, there's the very impressive free Microsoft ICE program:

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/redmond/groups/ivm/ice/

(You can send me the difference in price. )

Ken

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:17:16 GMT

Barbara B. wrote:

Ken, try View>Show People in Tags panel.

That's what I mean by switching between categories. The Keyword Tags panel is now useless for de-selecting categories and tags. One has to move the cursor all the way up to the top left of the screen to access the "Keywords" area of the giant area at the top, and then scroll down in that fiddly little "Keywords" area to do the work.

Ken

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:14:00 GMT

Anywhere from 3 to 8. The files are 8 bit tiffs converted from Raws in LR. About 25MB each. I use LR for most of my post processing and only use PSE for panos and the occastional removal of items from a photos (posts, signs, etc). Sounds like there is going to be no reason to upgrade for me if it does not improve the Panos. Maybe I will bite the bullet and go to ps6.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:09:35 GMT

How many photos and how large are the files? It's always tended to do this. If you turn on Geometric Distortion that helps sometimes. Also, using the Collage Merge may work, since that often leaves less space needing a fill.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:29:25 GMT

Warunicorn wrote:

And still no kerning/spacing of text like I requested a couple versions back? Really?

Agreed. Here's a link to my character tracking script, however:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/3972551#3972551

Added:

The reasonably priced Elements+ add-in also adds more advanced text handling:

http://elementsplus.net/

Ken

Message was edited by: photodrawken to add comment.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:07:28 GMT

Ken, try View>Show People in Tags panel.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:07:16 GMT

I have already done that. Still gives out of memory error messages.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:05:28 GMT

MichelBParis wrote:
But I shall never use those 3 new views, they are a waste of display space for me. Just for the fun, try to imagine how much work would be needed to translate my present categories of People, locations and events in the new panel.

One thing I found that requires a lot more effort and "mousing around" in PSE11: try switching back and forth between displaying all tags under the "People" category and all tags under another tag category.

Ken

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:04:34 GMT

graydl, go into the Editor's preferences>performance, and up the memory available to PSE to the max. It may help.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:03:03 GMT

When creating panos and you want it to fill in the missing bits (on the

edges) it will start and then give an out of memory error (this is on a

MBP with 16GB of memory)

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:58:13 GMT

Barbara B. wrote:

Organizer changes go much deeper than that. Click the tabs at the top. Now face recognition, map placement, events, all have their own "rooms". Adobe is slowly moving towards a more automated kind of tagging. It's not cosmetic only, not at all, but a different paradigm. I'd strongly encourage anyone who's a heavy user of organizer to give the trial a good hard workout to see how differently it opera

I agree this is another paradigm. Spectacular cosmetic changes, important changes towards 'automation', a lot of changes in details (too many to cite even with only a couple of hours testing).

I am ready to bet that 'heavy users' won't be satisfied at all. Future 'heavy users' may be...

- the main advantage is the double folder view : that of the Explorer, that of the database. Nice, but with two fundamental limitations. Easy managing of individual subfolders but no possibility to work on one folder and its subfolders at the same time. Then, no coherent way to move the files of a disk to another. What was possible with my PSE6 is no longer possible with PSE10 or PSE11. Heavy users still miss the old folder view.

- no progress in the search methods in the 'Find' menu. No .NOT. and 'XOR' logical operators. No way to 'Find' by drive letter or substring of a path.

- Heavy users necessarily rely on keywords and categories. Selecting and combining multiple keywords and categories must now be done in the 'Find' menu : too many steps and too small display space means that using the 'keyword' panel is a joke.

- I understand that many users will be interested with the automatic features, the face recognition and map view. The 'event' category is already covered by keywords. But I shall never use those 3 new views, they are a waste of display space for me. Just for the fun, try to imagine how much work would be needed to translate my present categories of People, locations and events in the new panel.

- I have already found a lot of 'details'which have been changed. Conversion of old catalogs works well and the thumbnail cache seems to be 'converted', not re-created. I may find many other nice additions.

- There are still important missing features for advanced users, like being able to choose to open jpegs in ACR, and possibly several jpegs at the same time... Suggestion for PSE12

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:41:22 GMT

Paint Shop Pro X5 has added a lot more 16-bit tool functionality than even PSPX4 had.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:27:08 GMT

Dave Quail wrote:

Any 16-bit tool functionality or 64-bit program functionality in PSE11?

No, it's still a 32-bit application.

No added 16-bit colour depth functionality. This is one area where PSE is falling behind Corel's PaintShopPro, whose latest version added a lot of 16bpp capabilities to its filters, etc.

Ken

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:18:39 GMT

Hi,

PSE is a 32 bit application. Please confirm what error you are getting.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:54:08 GMT

Anyone know whether it is 64bit? Tired of running out of memory on creating panos when trying to do cleanup.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:48:51 GMT

Nope.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:44:45 GMT

Quite agree about the bright garish UI...that was really not called for. Any way of changing shades of grey there?

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:40:56 GMT

photodrawken wrote:

Barbara B. wrote:

Well, the organizer is completely redesigned. Totally different from previous versions. I'll leave it to organizer fans as to whether good or bad.
Yes, the re-design is cosmetic only -- the truly needed feature of searching for items in a specific folder, or a "NOT" clause for items in multiple tags (or albums) are still missing.

Switching between what used to be called "Thumbnail View" and "Folder View' is nice, and the new list of folders which contain imported images is welcome.

Oh, and did I mention that the new ugly, bright, garish UI is awful? It also wastes too much screen space.

Ken

That bright UI was a huge turn-off for me as well.

And still no kerning/spacing of text like I requested a couple versions back? Really?

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:28:43 GMT

16 bit support is the same as in PSE 10. You can open 16 bit files, convert to 16 bit in ACR, do basic edits, but no support for layers, artistic filters, etc.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:22:25 GMT

Any 16-bit tool functionality or 64-bit program functionality in PSE11?

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 05:58:54 GMT

Barbara B. wrote:

In the editor: actions panel, easy to load styles and stuff (no more worrying about mediadatabase.db3), lens blur filter, ACR7, refine edge deluxe edition, tilt-shift, low key, high key and other new guided edits, new illustration type filters with a different kind of dialog than any of the older filters (comic, graphic novel, pen and ink).

In general, those features are nice.

It's good that the 3 new filters, new guided edits, and no dealing with mediadatabase.db3 make things easier, but all that can be done now.

ACR7 has different sliders for adjustments, but is still limited.

The deluxe refine edge is nice, but still doesn't help with really difficult extractions like hair.

I really like the performance enhancements -- both programs open and exit very quickly and the editing tools seem to work smoother and faster.

However, for my usage and money, it's still a non-upgrade proposition from PSE10.

Ken

P.S., So far the "Unwelcome Screen" is behaving. Might have to give it a new name....

Message was edited by: photodrawken to add postscript.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 06:02:02 GMT

Barbara B. wrote:

Trust me. Try face tagging something and see, for instance.

I'll trust you, but since I don't use face tagging, I'll need to have it explained before deciding whether it's an important difference or not....

Ken

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 05:38:26 GMT

Trust me. Try face tagging something and see, for instance.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 05:36:20 GMT

Whether or not the People, Maps (back again), or Events have their own "rooms" or areas, it's the same functionality as before.

If automated tagging is being enhanced to become the new paradigm, what of those who don't use automated tagging? For us, it's a cosmetic change only.

Ken

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 05:16:26 GMT

Organizer changes go much deeper than that. Click the tabs at the top. Now face recognition, map placement, events, all have their own "rooms". Adobe is slowly moving towards a more automated kind of tagging. It's not cosmetic only, not at all, but a different paradigm. I'd strongly encourage anyone who's a heavy user of organizer to give the trial a good hard workout to see how differently it operates.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 05:13:08 GMT

Barbara B. wrote:

Well, the organizer is completely redesigned. Totally different from previous versions. I'll leave it to organizer fans as to whether good or bad.

Yes, the re-design is cosmetic only -- the truly needed feature of searching for items in a specific folder, or a "NOT" clause for items in multiple tags (or albums) are still missing.

Switching between what used to be called "Thumbnail View" and "Folder View' is nice, and the new list of folders which contain imported images is welcome.

Oh, and did I mention that the new ugly, bright, garish UI is awful? It also wastes too much screen space.

Ken

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 04:49:58 GMT

Well, the organizer is completely redesigned. Totally different from previous versions. I'll leave it to organizer fans as to whether good or bad.

In the editor: actions panel, easy to load styles and stuff (no more worrying about mediadatabase.db3), lens blur filter, ACR7, refine edge deluxe edition, tilt-shift, low key, high key and other new guided edits, new illustration type filters with a different kind of dialog than any of the older filters (comic, graphic novel, pen and ink).

Oh, and a button in the prefs to delete the preferences. It's definitely a lot different from previous versions in many ways.

Re: PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 04:44:44 GMT

Ugh!

It's a loser.

The excellent PSE10 User Interface has been thrown away and replaced with an ugly, bright, garish piece of garbage that also wastes a lot of screen space. The tool options needlessly require more mouse clicks to operate, mostly because the options area needs to be manually hidden after adjusting an option.

Performance seems better than PSE10, and the infamous "10 second bug" when using the Lasso Tool seems to have been fixed.

I haven't found any new features, although the Greeting Card designs no longer require purchasing a "Plus" account to access the nice designs.

I'll wait until Adobe releases their "new features" list before discarding this abomination, but right now it's a short minute away from being thrown into the bit bucket.

Ken

PSE11 is out!

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 02:21:27 GMT

I'm downloading the trial right now -- it's a 1Gb download. Needed to first update the Adobe Download Manager, then horse around with its "Product" and then "Language version" dropdown boxes to find it, but it's on the way....

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/tdrc/index.cfm?product=photoshop_elements&loc=en_us

Ken

P.S., There's no info available yet about what's new or fixed, so only experimenting will tell.