Adobe Community: Message List - why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:28:56 GMT

I installed the current version of Reflow (preview) and the code export is MUCH better than it was a year ago.

There are some issues such as the html is not setup to the W3C's standards for HTML and HTML5 there are entries in the CSS that are not needed such as when there is "NONE" set. Instead of placing the css entry when something is not set just don't include it in the CSS, reduces clutter.

Personal preference of having all the elements that are associated such as width, min-width, max-width and other entries all together instead of scattered around where some are at the top some in the middle or at the end. Just put them all together neat and tidy.

Setting radious corners are not being shown dynamically within Reflow so it is not possible really to see how little or far the corners are rounding. Muse does this nicely.

You may want to look at the algorithm for setting the positioning of of margins, widths etc.. so that they round up instead of being 4 or 5 decimal places to the right. I have NEVER seen a designer or developer when they write their CSS have more than two decimal places right of the decimal but mostly whole numbers are used.

There really is not much difference at all between 89.983452% and 90% or pixels, ems or what-not.

I do not see any HTML5 specific tags being used in the html that is exported only the initial DOC Type is set to html5 the rest is just all DIV's. Why not use semantic styling?

Not sure why there needs to be a separate ID for each and every TEXT element such as P tag why not just set a class of text and be done with it and then add ID's when a specific text element changes from the global class, "text" for instance.

As is this latest version of Reflow (Preview) is worth testing and using to mockup layouts but you are still going to have to finesse and optimize the code which could be rewriting the entire HTML elements and CSS tags, but from what I see the exported files are usable as a starting point. Unlike a year ago, so progress has been made at least enough for me to not uninstall it. Will report back as I use it more.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 11 Nov 2014 19:05:17 GMT

I am just now coming back to this thread so I missed your offer for feedback.

Basically at the heart of it just make the exported code standards compliant. That is all you really need to do to make most of us happy.

Right now with the most recent versions of the browsers, even IE my html5 and css3 compliant code looks pretty much the same in all browsers. Some minor differences in some but for the most part what is over at the w3c website pretty much works in all the recent browsers. Cross Browser coding is just now starting to depreciate and will not be a terminology that will be widely used in the coming years. Some Html5 tags and codecs won't work cross browser for video and audio so there still needs to be a fall back but mostly the regular tags work. Those that don't yet you just need to tell the CSS and sometimes a JS script what they are but over time that won't be necessary.

I use Html5 tags, some DIV's where need be since the hgroups tag has been eliminated and jquery and jqueryui when laying out form and UI interfaces. I do NOT use photoshop for layout so all the PS back and forth is not something I need and I do not use Brackets.

Easily creating reflowable pages with production quality exportable code is what I want because manually creating things like that is not possible within a short period of time.

If you can have the same back and forth as you do with photoshop with dreamweaver and muse within reflow that would be the tool for me. Back when the creative studio brand that came out of the macromedia buyout all the versions from CS3 and up were toted as working together with nice little menu to select the tool to send to and round trip back... With the newest versions of CC 2014 some of that seems to be easier and also harder depending on which tools you are using. Mostly I see things with round trip focusing primarily on Photoshop getting it in and out of that application. I rarely use Photoshop and when I do it is for PHOTO's not websites.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 11 Nov 2014 18:39:09 GMT

I have not been back to this thread since I made my posts back in January 2014. It is important to note that the features within Edge Reflow (Preview) have changed somewhat since eleven months ago when I made my long detailed posts about why people including myself were getting the impression that Reflow was a product intended for production level code out of the box.

The last update in October 2014 has brought with it an official feature that exports html and css for importing into any editor of your choice. This is an updated feature apparently to the export for preview or whatever it was called back when.

After my previous post I uninstalled Reflow and focused more on muse and developing my hand coding skills. I want to bring your attention to the "what is new" video located here ----> What's new in Edge Reflow | Adobe Creative Cloud Tutorials

In that video there is mention that the new export feature the CSS does NOT have classes and the html and css will need to be manually altered to work with classes. I find this strange myself. It is basically going one step above table based layouts and instead of using tables and tr, tds they are using DIV's with a unique ID for each one. It works but does make the CSS and Html larger and not very optimized. Which is where YOU the designer, developer come in and recode to optimize the output from reflow. You do need to understand CSS though to be able to do that.

I don't remember what the exported code looked like before and I have not reinstalled Reflow again, I was looking into this product again especially since they have now come out with the export feature but after watching the video above and reading this and other threads in this forum I am not quite sure yet if it would be a waste of my time to work with Reflow or not.

It still seems like A LOT of work would need to be done to optimize the code and bring it up to html 5 and CSS3 standards.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Sun, 09 Nov 2014 00:35:47 GMT

merhaba

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Sun, 09 Nov 2014 00:35:13 GMT

hello

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 19:58:59 GMT

Oh, it's OK, I knew who you were talking to, I was just trying to explain why some of us did feel like the descriptions are a little deceiving. To defend Adobe though, Adobe is a big brand name and they really put out some great products that can be used in a lot of ways by a variety of skill levels. I mean, many people don't even use more that 10% of the full photoshop capabilities, so when it comes to products that are more geared to the higher professional field it is always going to difficult in respect to descriptions and what it can and can't do

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 19:11:12 GMT

Yeah I guess adobe is having a problem with this product because they've released it too early "as a beta", this could be a great move... But adobe haven't done much inbetween each update and haven't taken the product further since it was first released. Since it has been out for so long it's hard to trust adobe whatever they will update the product at all.

I've got to add thought that I do agree with your post and that my comment was in response to Oregoner and it actually says that at the top of my post but adobes forums kinda suck at showing this (which I wasn't aware of until I made the post already) :-p

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 17:43:50 GMT

lol, I think your response goes to what I was saying above. The actual language adobe uses in many ways can throw people off and cause misunderstanding and as I stated, professionals likely understand what is being said but there is a huge part of the market that doesn't. When I finally found out what Reflow does I looked back at the product pages and I had a much better understanding of what it is exactly and could see that some of it was clear on reflection, but that is where people (especially people that are not doing these things all day everyday) get upset. They read the language, interpret it as one thing, and then realize when they get into it, it isn't what they thought. I think that the beginning of your comment,

"Ok, I'll say this as an actual web designer working in the field for Scandinavia's biggest digital agency. You have obviously no clue about high grade web development and the problems we are facing when trying to create designs."

Just says it all. I can actually see where this would be useful for you, and you are a professional, so you get it. But your last line goes to the frustration that people like me have and shows you have a similar issue,

"Reflow shows potential but sadly still have lots of work left until it's actually usable in a production environment. I'm getting worked up here and I'm taking my time to write here because reflow is the closest any web design program has come to solving a fundamental issue with the current design workflows!"

A majority of people end up on forums because we are worked up and frustrated. Sometimes its for opposite reasons but rarely are people doing cartwheels with rainbows shooting out of their backsides on help forums. So where you get worked up because people are complaining about what you think is great and is close to solving problems in your current design reflows, others are upset because we like Adobe products and thought that we found something that solves some of our problems, We end up upset and stressed out because it is not what we thought and have wasted time only to have a level of our own stress return.

I can see a few things that would actually help me ( a non-professional) when I have time to sit down with it, and I understand this is likely a tool that is out of my knowledge range, I would just like to see things in plain language and labeled that way is all so we aren't all ranting

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 13:37:28 GMT

Ok, I'll say this as an actual web designer working in the field for Scandinavia's biggest digital agency. You have obviously no clue about high grade web development and the problems we are facing when trying to create designs. Reflow shows a lot of potential for a future where designers actually can test and mockup designs straight in an editor. Reflow is Photoshop for the modern web designer. Yes, Adobe might need to be clearer with the intention since there are a few people here who obviously misunderstand it's purpose, but if you think pro grade web design is just a matter of working in an editor you obviously don't have the authority to deem a program worthy or not. There are programs aiming to do all the programming for you e.g. macaw and webflow (or dreamweaver and muse) however these programs will not be able to replace a actual developer any time soon and will not be able to assist any professional web designer either. And again, reflow is a free beta program and has therefore never claimed to be a program ready for actual production. Reflow shows potential but sadly still have lots of work left until it's actually usable in a production environment. I'm getting worked up here and I'm taking my time to write here because reflow is the closest any web design program has come to solving a fundamental issue with the current design workflows! Go adobe!

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 02:13:27 GMT

It is extremely deceiving. I mean, a lot of people use Adobe products and a lot of us didn't go to school to become a web designer/developer. I guess you could say that professionals aren't thrown of by the language. The problem is, unless you are a professional, "design" is the same thing as build a website. There is an admitted difference but with many programs Adobe puts out there is that lack of a clear definition of what exactly each program is. I found Edge Reflow because, for reasons I can't fathom except maybe a mistake by some intern, Muse doesn't let people build a responsive site and instead makes life miserable by forcing you to build a site for desktop, tablet, and phone. That makes no sense because everything needs to be responsive these days or you might as well not expect traffic. When you look around and see Edge Reflow, it says it's for creating responsive web

If you look at the FAQ there is a question about who should use Reflow and it says, " Reflow is ideal for web designers who start in Photoshop and want to create responsive layouts and CSS visuals targeting modern browsers"

I understand that some, especially professionals, could look at that and understand what it means but others cannot. Why not give it a name like Adobe Mock Up Pro? I mean, at least people would get the real idea of what it is or isn't, so people can decide ( I know its not likely anyone giving answers had input into names ). I find a lot of other Adobe Software has similar vague definitions of what it is they exactly do. For me, I have used a lot of them (or at least gave a try) and used some in college. so I have a good idea of what the big core programs (yes, I am dating myself by using the word "programs). For others that I have never seen or played with I find I have to search all sorts of 3rd party websites to really get a feel. It is likely just because I don't know all the correct lingo out there, that's a given and nobody's fault. So I'm not saying that it's deceiving as in "they are trying to put one over on people ," but instead, in a, "We spend all our time with designers/developers and sell to developers/designers, that we just can't break it down in a way the other, non-super knowledged person can understand.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 19:29:57 GMT

Hi, Just to mention that I created a site in reflow. A one pager simple site to test. It can be used as a production site IF ONE TAKES CARE to label the CSS tags correctly. I didnt and ended up with a working site but very very messy CSS. I think it is a better solution to dreamweaver when dealing with media queries and needing to "SEE" what is actually going on. I believe Reflow is a really good starting point.

I looked at the dreamweaver responsive ability a long time ago (like a few years ago) and found it a little difficult, however, I have not tried to build a new site in the CC version yet so I cant compare.

I hope this gives a little peace of mind.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:59:43 GMT

What the heck are you guys talking about? You can "Export for Code Editor" from Reflow and open it right up into Dreamweaver. You can then add you dynamic code there.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 22:53:38 GMT

@Adobe

Dump Reflow.

Who are you making this product for? The "Adobe Elements" crowd?

What is Reflow? A tool to hash out a "basic" fluid design then "pop" into Dreamweaver and finish it up? It surely can't stand alone as a serious web dev product!

Unless the next version is going to blow our socks off, by an order of magnitude, with new capabilities and functionality... cut your losses and get back to more worthy products like Dreamweaver and Muse.

Improve fluid design capabilities in Dreamweaver and also add them to Muse. Sure would be nice to draw elements in Dreamweaver, or even have the same minimal widget sets Muse has.

You've spent a long on Reflow without much gain.

Web dev isn't what I do all the time but I use these tools on a daily basis. My job: Electronic circuit board design, catalog design, website design, product photography, write tutorials/instructions, and more, for small electronics company for the last 16 years.

Some of your tools fill our needs "fairly well" if not buggy or frustrating to use. None of them except Photoshop fills a need "Very well". I use alternatives to some effectively.

Dump Reflow and concentrate on Muse and Dreamweaver and maybe Edge animate!

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Sun, 14 Sep 2014 04:24:28 GMT

I was just thinking that the Lempel–Ziv–Welch basically finds patterns and creates a dictionary of unique data strings. Which is what one would need to do if one was to post process ID's to Classes. CSS is several orders of magnitude more complex than images but computers are about 7 orders of magnitude faster than they were in 1984. The optimizing of css might just be a compression problem.:-) That and of course master pages like muse to create classes meant to be shared.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:07:28 GMT

Jetstrap, Webflow, Froont, Edge Reflow, Macaw, Coffeecup, etc ....

New, small teams and with the proposal to be responsive. However the only one that has the (unclear inclusive) proposed to be only a builder of mockups is Adobe Edge Reflow.

Suggest Reflow staff reflect on the following question:

Why the community of web designers just use a program to create mockups responsive when there are many competitors (and incredibly friendly products and best) that not only produce responsive mockups as well as generate clean code in html5 (html5 + css3 + javascript) thus making the full experience !?

The community needs a friendly program such as reflow, but not for mockups, but to generate content itself, as well as all the other programs mentioned above try and get.

The biggest feedback I can give the development team is that reflow move the line of thought, the product is good, has a PS behind. But needs to generate a beautiful code to gain market ..

I've watched ALL the videos of Macaw, Webflow and Edge Reflow and some videos of Froont, Jetstrap, Coffeecup.

And I guarantee that the Webflow is currently not only the best of all is how many light years ahead of Edge Reflow and some ahead of Macaw. Please do as I do, take time and see ALL the videos Webflow. It's amazing the work and the level at which they arrived, I'm using Webflow and the only thing that goes through my head is: "As the folks at Adobe did not do it before ?? As left Webflow achieve this level of development without doing anything respect." Clap to interface features that help to develop, as the x-ray or interactions of transformations and movement they made, as well as the clear concern with the source code that is well written and clean ..... just missed integrate with photoshop and not being online to be perfect !! (This is a work for Adobe).

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 23:15:40 GMT

The general problem it the there are many different coding standards and platforms out there. Reflow can help translate you design to the web, and help your developer by giving them HTML that shows them exactly how things should look, but may not be how they will eventually code it. Reflow isn't looking to replace the developer in this workflow, just make the handoffs more accurate between design and dev. If you you want to publish static sites without a developer you may be able to use Reflow for that. If your site has dynamic content or other interactivity you will probably need to work with a developer or look into Muse.

Hope that helps,

Chris

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Mon, 28 Jul 2014 20:33:11 GMT

I agree with this. I was really exited about what appeared to be a set of great tools - well the great tools seem more like great toys. Spent hours on a reflow site only to come across this thread.. now terribly frustrated. Not to mention the hours invested trying to piece together HOW I can maximise my creative cloud membership to speed up the design and development process. Tools seems to be inconclusive. A lot of mixing and matching but nothing that really allows the designer to translate directly to a functional site - let alone collaborate with serious developers on mobile projects. We are all aware that code needs tweeking but I do find the edge products to be more than a little disappointing.

It looks like designers who also work in the development environment actually need to rely on open source and hand coding.

I really hope that the Adobe starts to put the actual needs of its users ahead of its need to dominate the market.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 23:15:08 GMT

I just had to leave a quick reply here. For me, Reflow has never been confusing about it's main purpose. As a designer this is the tool I've been waiting for to create fast and efficient responsive MOCKUPS to hand over for production. Then again, I'm also doing a lot of the programming myself so I've never expected an editor to replace the hard labour of a real front-end programmer. I'd actually be harsh and suggest you research a bit about the medium you are designing for before jumping in and working with actual clients, but that's just how I see it...

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Fri, 30 May 2014 21:17:03 GMT

It seems there are many such tools vying to reach the holy grail of being able to produce production-quality responsive code, easily and efficiently. None of them as far as I know have hit the mark. To name a few I've looked at recently:

The interesting thing seems to be all these efforts are being attempted by very small teams, of which, Adobe's Rf team of 6 or 7 is the biggest. They are at least communicating openly through these forums which is refreshing for such a large entity like Adobe.

Our field is changing at an exponential pace of late and keeping abreast of everything is challenging. Building websites is difficult enough. I can only imagine how tough it is to build a tool that can build a website.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 29 May 2014 16:44:53 GMT

This was a good thread. To see what exactly Reflow has been doing well and not so well. Definitely plan to use Adobe Reflow for next project.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 03:47:45 GMT

I've tried the code export in the pre-release and its good enough to initiate a design in Dreamweaver. On top of that Rf really makes it easy to change from being a 960pix dinosaur to a responsive designer (ah yes - someone referred to me as a dinosaur for not leaping into RWD in 2012 - BAH!). There's some unbreakable rules in the way stuff is laid out and its order in the DOM which are a lot easier to see in Rf than Dreamweaver.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 18:14:57 GMT

A new version of Reflow is due out in a few short months. Stay tuned.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 18:14:26 GMT

Yes, it will be available this year.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 18:04:42 GMT

Just yesterday I convinced by department to give me a fill subscription to CC, will this new version of Reflow be availble this year? Thanks.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 14:45:29 GMT

You can currently use the code produced when you preview a project to get started with production for that project. We now have a pre-release build that actually exports code so you can open it in your favourite code editor (whether Dreamweaver or Brackets or SublimeText or Notepad Plus) and go ahead with making it ready for production.

If any of you would like to give us feedback about this feature, I would really appreciate it! Please email me manian@adobe.com so I can invite you to the pre-release.

The other thing we are working on is making the import from PS better. We would also love to get feedback from you all on that too!

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 13:08:02 GMT

Wait a minute... is Adobe saying that all the time I spent designing my site in Reflow was simply for prodicing a make-believe website?

I have used Dreamweaver to "Design" sites never once thinking that what I have produced is only usable for visualizing what a site may, in theory look like... that would be absurd.

A helpful hint would have been nice, such as in the videos touting the selling points for Reflow. When the presenter is marvelling at how easy it is to produce responsive web pages, he could have mentioned by reminding the viewer: "Now remember, you won't actually be able to use what you are spending loads of time tweaking in Reflow, it's just for fun! Ha ha!"

This as opposed to designing a site in Reflow, then discovering there is no way to export, frantically searching forums only to see other baffled customers like myself and learning that the Adobe has made this very clear, by burying this fact somewhere in the volumes of small print.

It's true what they say, and it's glaringly confirmed here: The large print giveth, the small print taketh away.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:47:22 GMT

I didn't know that DW had a Fluid Design tool either.

I've just been looking at Macaw.co and this looks to be the answer to many of my responsive design problems as a front-end designer who cannot hope to keep up with responsive code developments and the like.

Check it out as I don't understand Adobe Edge Reflow when it can't produce production ready code that you can start to build your website project from and adapt as necessary.

A mockup tool only in this day and age isn't really cutting it and we need 'codesign' tools that allow us to design and spit out HTML/CSS ready to go, otherwise we are competing with the likes of free/low cost mass produced themes largely created by so-called designers who are just appealing to clients and non-designers with other produced bloated layouts.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 00:48:22 GMT

Hate to be another "whiner" but I've recently attended a Creative Roadshow where Reflow was showcased and again - it wasn't made clear (or even mentioned) that it wasn't a production ready tool. So I've just spent days going through the tutorials and then finding out today that I'm wasting my time (at present) building a new site in it.

In fact Dreamweaver CC (my tool of choice since v4) wasn't even mentioned at the roadshow. I chatted to the presenter afterwards and he said Dreamweaver has a fluid design mode - which was news to me. So I'd be looking for:-

1. Export capabilities to Dreamweaver fuild design from Reflow

2. Some form of HTML5/CSS3 export without all the Modernizr support code in the current "export"

3. The ability to include movies in Reflow

4. Roadshow presenters being instructed not just to bounce around on a computer being mind blowing with the Rf interface but also remembering to mention not to rush into designing a production site with it!!

Cheers

Dave

PS: Oh and I will try to import what I've done into Dreamweaver fluid design and see what happens. I'll report back.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 13:00:30 GMT

Every package still seems to be focused on their specific target. I'd say it's just your perspective on the apps where you get that conclusion. Illustrator is often used in design (web, and UI), because of how it can output resolution independent graphics easily for the specific target (retina vs non-retina output easily). That is why it's used for web layout sometimes. Photoshop has all the editing capabilities a designer could want. The path Adobe has is perfectly fine in my book. They realize pushing pixels (or vectors) around to build a design is much more flexible and non-restrictive than pushing grids around. A new application would basically do the same thing. Then we can push our design into Reflow, and that works beautifully. And Reflow is not a deadend. I suppose I need to record a tutorial. I just thought the video was pretty descriptive, and my video would basically be a replica of that one.

I don't want another package. I find that Photoshop works beautifully for what I want, and adding another design product to the group would be unnecessary. For webdesign what you need is a drawing tool, and a image manipulation tool. Then Reflow which helps with layout, and Brackets for fleshing out the code.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 19:56:10 GMT

I don't know about everyone else, but I think adobe's suite of apps is starting to get very muddled, there had always been a degree of cross over of features between apps but in recent years that has dramatically increased.

I hope its just a temporary situation and that it will all come together in a coherent package.

Just looking at the web side you have Photoshop and illustrator as the main layout packages for web (a photo editor and an drawing package!) then you can mock up responsive sites with reflow but that currently leads to a dead end, or you have muse but that doesn't have a good solution for different devices at the moment and it also leads to a dead end, and finally you have dreamweaver, which tries to do everything. Fireworks which could have been great has been abandoned.

Adobe has very talented people with great ideas, but its like you all work completely seperately from each other, why not get together and make a seamless experience 1 package for web design that handles responsive layout, 1 package for web development that tightly intergrated with the design package.

And leave Photoshop for images, Illustrator for illustrations and Indesign for print design !!

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 05:50:30 GMT

That's good feedback too. I think there's room for a few tools as there are a lot of people with different skills and sites they need to build. All the Edge teams are talking together about workflows and how all these things can work better together. In the short term on the Reflow side we're looking on how to better get the html & css into Dreamweaver or Code so you can take it from there so it sounds like we meeting your some of your needs in the next preview release. Longer term we're letting users guide us and try to keep getting the most requested features out.

Thanks for using Relfow and glad we'll hopefully have a good solution for you coming up.

Chris

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 04:13:07 GMT

Chris--

Just to chime in, I'm a pretty early Muse adopter, and I've been (mostly) satisfied with it - however, if Adobe could somehow combine the features of Reflow (excellent responsive design) with Muse (excellent visual layout and relatively clean code), I'd be a really happy camper. However, I think some of the folks you turned to Muse might be disappointed in the results; Muse is fantastic as a prototyping tool, and does push out relatively decent sites, but it's not suited for the more complicated CMS development that a lot of posters are mentioning.

However, incorporating the Brackets Reflow extension listed above, plus some elbow grease, might end up being a good interim solution (albeit w/out Muse).

Ultimately, I'd like to see a Muse/Reflow/Code solution, or a much more modern and svelte Dreamweaver, but that's just me.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 01:40:13 GMT

Thanks for the feedback.I'll add it to the back log. It's definitly more of an advanced feature so if we did do it, you the user would need to take more responsibility for making sure the tags are valid and the ids unique.

Chris

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:08:04 GMT

Chris,

Not sure if you want a response here, or a new thread. But to keep things in one place...I like where you are going. The main issue I think is the HTML structure, and the CSS fragmentation that occurs. If those two things are corrected the exported code should be pretty good, and we'd definitely be going somewhere. If we specify that the selected text is a H2 by naming it, then Reflow should output it as an H2. Even more ideal would be if we could control Classes and IDs via a simple naming scheme:

h2.header = <h2 class="header">This is the header</h2>

h2#header = <h2 id="header">This is the header</h2>

And of course the CSS would have to parse through the titles, and export the CSS per our created classes/ids.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 01:15:33 GMT

Let's keep it civil in here. All the feedback on here is great and we are trying to listen to everyone. If the comments can stay focused on what you'd like to see changed in Reflow or providing solutions for problems that will be the best.

We've heard a lot about export code and we're going to make some improvements for that in the next preview release. In a nutshell what we'd like to do for export code is:

Allow you pick a directory to export to
Take the CSS that is shown in the code panel and use that instead of the current preview code
add the css prefixes so the code will work in more browsers

It's not going to address all the needs, but we hope it's a step in the right direction. You can give us feedback on this plan and if there are other small things we can do beyond these things we'll try to help.

Thanks again for all the feedback and keep it constructive and not personal.

Chris

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 03:48:15 GMT

Troll? What does that mean?

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 03:15:01 GMT

Troll

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 02:50:59 GMT

I just have difficulty how this statement can be misunderstood how:

"Easily extract CSS from your project for further development inEdge Code CC, Dreamweaver CC, or another code editor of your choice."

Anyone who has a glimmer of understanding Web Design and Development should be aware that layout is completely done via CSS. HTML is the structure of the layout. Reflow talks about creating the design prototypes, and layout. Nothing is said about structure only that the CSS can be extracted as referenced above. I never presumed it would output HTML. Even during the numerous video conference talks they referenced the CSS, and transferring the CSS to Edge Code/Brackets.

Anyway...all of that is a pointless discussion at this point. I do of course agree that it would be great for Reflow to export/import properly. Mostly import really since at this point as I've said REPEATEDLY it's EASY to EXPORT right NOW. Just read my previous posts referencing the video that discusses cleaning up the output with the Brackets extension.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 01:32:29 GMT

My personal opinion, given all the feedback on this particular thread and what I now know about the product, is to get the code it does generate a bit more useable/production ready. I think working on getting the css truly cross-browser compatible (I presume it's not based on feedback here. I haven't tried it.) and the html code cleaned-up so that it can be copied without too much post-reflow-manipulation would be a great next release. I think that would make the app fit into more pipelines sooner than later and prevent people from having to start from scratch in another program jsut to try and reproduce what this already does in Reflow/Chrome.

I have to agree that at this stage it really doesn't make sense to use it if I can' take work already done here and port it over easily to another app to add the non-responsive specific features. All it serves at this point is to provide the feedback to you guys that other users have already given I think. I too was under the impression based on the website and marketing material that it would generate usable production code for me at the end of the day even if it is just a preview app (whatever that means). I also went through all of the tutorials to learn how to use it only to be slightly dissapointed for a while, but it looks like you guys are working towards making it a truly productive responsive design toolin the future...hopfully near future.

I hope the end result is an end-to-end solution for responsive designs. A plus would be including the ability to handle dynamic data or some back and forth compatibility between muse/dreamweaver/edge code/visual studio/other tools much like Premiere/After Effects/Speed Grade work today, with a non-destructive approach so that going back to reflow doesn't overwrite work done in the other tools. If all it did ever was help manage the (production-ready) CSS, HTML to make it responsive and pass the generated code off to another app, I'd be happy to use it as my primary design tool.

Overall, I think it's a great idea for a visual tool for designing repsonsive sites and hope it ends up becoming the product many of us probably thought it was to begin with.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 17:43:51 GMT

I think the take-away on all this is the assumption that everyone understands what "preview" means. Many of us thought it meant that Edge was an early look at a powerful product for developing responsive HTML/CSS

pages. Same thing with saying Edge is for "prototyping". Many thought that meant it was for mocking up web pages quickly.

So while you can easily find dozens of places Adobe's docs state Edge is a preview of a prototyping tool that does not mean you have no worries of people misinterpreting the app's purpose.

I think some Adobe folks understand this now and so hopefully they'll come up with a way to avoid the confusion without lessening the powerful message of what Edge offers. If I was running marketing for this product I'd try to find a byline that clarifies just what Edge can do so people don't get a bitter feeling they were led astray.

Mitch Waite, iBird

Sent from my iPhone 5 w/ iOS 7

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 16:18:47 GMT

I concur with the general frustration, time spent (and wasted), and misunderstanding the Reflow was something other than it is. And all of this could have — should have — been avoided by one simple addition to the team's staff: a marketing authority who could consume every bit of *preview*, be it video, documentation, marketing piece, etc. and then determine whether the facts matched the message.

And, friends, the facts do not match the message.

It does not, however, constitute reality that anyone on the Reflow team led off intending to decieve and frustrate. Nor does it constitute reality that anyone on the Reflow team lied by omission with intent. In short, you packaged it wrong. You recruited the same messaging methods and mediums of your other Ready From Prime Time products. Reflow is not and therefore should have only be positioned offstage where a true preview glimpse was allowed...not unlike Kuler was way-back-when via Adobe Labs.

Nevertheless, the wider world would have been better served had the team relaxed from their work one evening and had the benefit of someone inside Adobe pouring everyone another beer and saying, "...um, team? Yeah, what you're working on is great. But you have GOT to change your messaging because designers everywhere feel like you teased them toward a prom night they'll never forget and then stood them up."

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 22:06:18 GMT

You guys are so calm, and understanding. We do appreciate all your hardwork. Very politically correct answer Joan. You are of course right that people speaking up is better than them feeling frustrated, and leaving the tool. I was just trying to point out that it has been pretty clear since day one that Reflow was meant as a prototyping tool. Even that HTML/CSS output feature request thread states from May 2013: "As Nick mentions above, Reflow's intent is to be a responsive "design" tool first and not have to worry about generating production quality code."

Thanks for chiming in Joan. And I honestly feel Adobe hasn't implied anything.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 21:58:50 GMT

I'm sorry to disagree. But I feel this thread has just been people complaining. There is an excellent thread elsewhere here requesting proper HTML/CSS export maybe providing details on what you'd like to see in the export, the controls you'd like to have, etc. would be much more productive than the big rants I've seen here. I applaud Adobe for handling it all with grace.

As a side note. Reflow will not be this magic solution. (Just as Macaw won't be) The design community is so excited about these tools, but in a real development workflow they are quite limited. Because anything beyond a few web pages is just not going to benefit from these tools until they integrate frameworks, LESS, SCSS, etc. Not to mention once you try integrating the designs with a CMS, or custom web app...don't plan on ever going back, since editing the project design will require using the static files. This is not exactly the most efficient workflow. At least for the next few years I envision that these tools will work great for interactive prototypes, and simple designs...but I would currently not expect more than that from them. I use Bootstrap, Foundation, Custom Grid Frameworks, LESS, SASS, etc on a daily basis, and the place of Reflow is confined to the very early stages at the moment...but even then I usually just Generate the image files from PS...and then handcode the prototypes in Bootstrap/*insert another framework*, because in the end I'll have to convert the CSS to a LESS/SCSS which is just extra work.

/end side note

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 22:00:14 GMT

Honestly, all of the feedback you guys are giving us is valuable. As mentioned, Reflow is in preview mode, so, we welcome all of your discussions in how we can make the product as well as the documentation and messaging around it a bit clearer. As long as the criticism is constructive, we'll take it in and try to act on some of it. Because of this thread (and others), we are actively discussing how to make it easier to use the code from Reflow and how to change some of our messaging around it. Speaking up about the issues you are facing is better than feeling frustrated and leaving the tool forever. Nichod, thanks for mentioning the Brackets extension. Maybe we don't promote it enough for people who actually want to use the code that comes out Reflow. Joan

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 21:46:14 GMT

I don't think complaining is ever doing anyone a favor. Especially in this case. This is a Preview release, and everywhere I look I see Preview. And I have never seen clear examples illustrating that they approve of using the exported HTML. It's all about prototyping interactive designs at this point.

A few quotes from the Reflow website:

Start responsive designs faster and create high-fidelity prototypes

Reflow uses CSS and behaves like a browser, making it easier to translate your designs to the web.

Easily extract CSS from your project for further development in Edge Code CC, Dreamweaver CC, or another code editor of your choice.

None of that seems to imply it exports HTML (and that it is a complete solution), and no where on the website does it state it exports HTML. They have always focused on the CSS Reflow provides. The videos all discuss that it exports CSS, and allows you to make great interactive design prototypes.

I did actually post a link to a resource I used to help with Reflow export. It's really not that complicated. And with all of your authorship experience I'm sure you know in development no holy grail exists. Everything is a tool that either is used in the pipeline, or isn't. In the case of Reflow I have used it in a few lightweight projects (small static designs of 5-6 pages).

Again the link to the extension with a pretty detailed video is located here: http://blog.brackets.io/2013/09/26/reflow-cleaner-extension/ and I recommend following his steps, then finesse the code a bit yourself. It's not a complicated process. The only reason the exported HTML isn't ideal at the moment is the incorrect semantic markup.

It's great you pay close attention to feedback. I wish you had paid close attention to mine, and watched the great video that pretty much completely details, and answers your questions. No tutorial is really required.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 21:46:00 GMT

I agree with goofy166 100%. No one here has been complaining needlessly.

Nichod, I am not sure what "obvious documentation" you are referring to, as I spent a lot of time researching this product and like most of the others we feel the documenation is not clear. There is nothing wrong with expecting a product from Adobe to be at the level they have set previously with all the products I use. In fact, I feel that is what THEY expect also. Especially since they asked for our input. I proudly claim to be an "adobe fan-boy" and promote them every chance I get. But I also expect a certain quality from them which I know they will produce. We all want a perfect product.

Thank you

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 21:24:28 GMT

I don't agree that the Edge Reflow docs and marketing material are anywhere as transparent as you imply nor do I wish to criticize you for stating your opinion.

I think the people who have complained are doing everyone a favor. As a former writer of 25 computer books and a publisher of 200 titles (google Waite Group Press) I listen closely to feedback that indicates confusion. It's not wrong but rather it's a gift that can help me perfect my message.

I think it would be extremely helpful if you could show us the steps you took to make your project's HTML and CSS so easily work responsively. A tutorial would speak louder than any post.

Clearly we are all looking for the holy grail so our expectations easily cloud our judgement.

Sincerely,

Mitch

Sent from my iPhone 5 w/ iOS 7

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 20:50:09 GMT

I just want to be a realistic voice in this discussion. It is pretty clear everywhere I look that Reflow is a preview release. And just to clear things up it is entirely possible, and I have used the output directly from Reflow (HTML and CSS) in projects. It can be done. I used a wonderful Brackets extension: http://blog.brackets.io/2013/09/26/reflow-cleaner-extension/ to help clean up the code, and then tweaked a few things by hand.

I'd recommend that people stop complaining, and clearly read the documentation, and product information. If you can spend the time to write a lengthy post complaining about how Reflow doesn't automatically do what you want it to do, then you can spend the same amount of time figuring out how to adapt your workflow that it does to what you want it to do. The fact that I can autogenerate a Reflow project from a Photoshop mockup is just amazing. Then I can make the mockup responsive in a controlled, and design oriented way. Finally I just group certain elements, and do some post-processing of code I have a completed design.

It is great that Adobe is so understanding of those select few in the community who choose to ignore obvious documentation, and feel the need to cast a negative light on an amazing application.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 18:27:48 GMT

Hi goofy166

We are definitely always looking for improving our messaging of the product. We are happy to do so. Further, we are actually looking into the work involved in making this happen. I would really be grateful if I could get your, at_play, and others in this thread's views on your expectations on how code generation would look like to you ideally. Please do email me manian@adobe.com If any of you are willing to talk to us, I would love to schedule some time with the team and you all to see how we can get this to happen. Thanks again for your feedback.

Re: why using Edge Reflow if it's not possible to generate a real HTML Code and improve it with PHP ?

forums_noreply@adobe.com — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 18:58:53 GMT

It's amazing to me that its taken this much back and forth before someone at Adobe finally figured out how misleading the marketing info is about Edge. Based on the way it was presented I told all kinds of developers that I had found the holy grail. Later I had to go back and apoligise to all fo them. Very disappointed. I will never again trust at Adobe marketing materail to be fully transparent. Which is pretty sad as I have loved this company since the day Photoshop 1 came out.