Photoshop Image Size > Resolution Wrong (?)

[Mykill_G]

My mind is about to explode.

First, I'm not new to Photshop. I'e made my living as a designer at a screen print shop and now a design shop for the last 5 years. I use PS and Illustrator daily. But, today, I ran into an issue that has me questioning my own sanity...

I have an image I downloaded online I'm trying to make a collage with (pointless details).

I opened the image in Apple Preview, used 'Get Info', and the image size is as follows:

Image size: 1160 × 772 pixels

Image DPI: 72 pixels/inch

1.

Go to PS and create a doc with those EXACT numbers. Drag and drop the image from Finder... its waaaay smaller. (278x185).

I re-do the New Document thing, making sure I have everything right... same thing.

Try changing the Preference > Resize Image During Place & Always Create Smart Objects when Placing ... makes no difference.

2.

I directly open the image in Photoshop (File > Open). Go to Image > Image Size...

Dimensions: 1160 px x 772 px

Resolution: 300 Pixels/Inch

wtf...

3.

I open the image in every other image editing application on my computer (which is quite a few... I like options), including Illustrator and viewing in Bridge, and they all say:

1160 × 772 pixels @ 72 ppi.

4.

Double check Photoshop Image Size of image in Photoshop CC 2014, CC 2015, 2015.5, CC 2017, CC 2018 and even CS6.

Dimensions: 1160 px x 772 px

Resolution: 300 Pixels/Inch

I never use InDesign, but I opened it and placed the image just to see..

Dimensions: 1160 px x 772 px

Actual PPI: 300

Effective PPI: 300

What am I missing here??

A) Why the f#%! does EVERY APPLICATION on the computer, including Adobe apps Illustrator and Bridge say the image is 72 ppi while Photoshop and InDesign insist it is 300?

B) Why is dragging the image into Photoshop resizing it to a size that is not even a multiple/divisible of the original?!

If I first OPEN the image and then drag it into the new document, it is the expected size, but not dragging from Finder...

My brain is melting just thinking about this. Someone smarter than me PLEASE help me understand this.

Thanks

[Mykill_G]

Unrelated, when I tried to edit a few spelling mistakes 2 minutes after posting, after making the corrections and hitting "Post", it asked me for my name and email, which I entered, but was then told "You do not have permission to update or edit this content". You are killing me, Adobe.

[Test Screen Name]

One possibility is that it has no resolution in the file and so you see different app’s different defaults. What file format is this image? If it’s Online can you share a link.

[Mykill_G]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Test+Screen+Name  wrote

One possibility is that it has no resolution in the file and so you see different app’s different defaults. What file format is this image? If it’s Online can you share a link.

JPEG. Sure, here is the link.

https://www.retrosupply.co/collections/popular/products/the-woodcut-brush-kit

All the images doe the same thing. There is really no "direct link" to the images, but they are the main product images for the page.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse  wrote

Pixels per inch (ppi) is just metadata, which may be missing or not read properly by the application.

I might be making myself look dumb here, but I really didn't know that. I honestly thought that PPI was an essential part of the data structure, not just a line of metadata. I guess that's what happens when you are totally self tought, you miss important stuff along the way sometimes. Learn something new every day.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse  wrote

It sounds like you're getting the thumbnail, not the original image (don't know how this works in Mac). Drag and drop is always an unpredictable way to do things. Open the original properly.

I have used Desktop/Finder for as long as I can remember and have never had an issue... until now. Hmm. Thanks for the advice.

[D Fosse]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Mykill+G  wrote

Drag and drop the image from Finder... its waaaay smaller. (278x185).

It sounds like you're getting the thumbnail, not the original image (don't know how this works in Mac). Drag and drop is always an unpredictable way to do things. Open the original properly.

Also, a downloaded image may be damaged in many ways. Open it and resave it.

Pixels per inch (ppi) is just metadata, which may be missing or not read properly by the application. In that case the application opens with a default ppi value, and this may vary from app to app. Most use 72, but some use 96 or any other value.

[Conrad C]

I tried this myself and saw everything reported. I think I have a few ideas.

I used the image

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0278/7289/products/Woodcut7.jpg

which is, as you say, is 1160 x 772 pixels, and is reported as 72 ppi by the same applications you tried, but opens directly into Photoshop as 300 ppi. I'm not sure why Photoshop opens it as 300 ppi, because if the image included 300 ppi metadata, all applications should have reported that. It sounds like it may not have resolution metadata, but then I'm used to Photoshop defaulting to 72 ppi in that case. So there's a mystery there.

I also saw that dragging and dropping into Photoshop would import at 278 x 185 px (into a 1160 x 772, 72 ppi document), but in recent versions of Photoshop CC that does not mean you lose any pixels, because the default drag-and-drop behavior is to import the image file as an embedded Smart Object; the Properties and Layers panel should indicate this. That means all the pixels are there, but the image has been scaled down. You can see this by double-clicking the layer; as a Smart Object it should open into its own 1160 x 772 document. If you close that, and back in the main document you scale up the embedded 278 x 185 px Smart Object to 1160 x 772 px, you will find that there are no jaggies, because it was not a thumbnail, it was a Smart Object containing the entire resolution of the placed image but scaled down.

Now, I thought scaling on import wouldn't happen if the "Resize Image During Place" preference was turned off, but it happens. Then I had the idea that maybe Photoshop sees the incoming image at 300 ppi, and like InDesign, tries to reconcile the resolution difference with the 72 ppi document to make their physical sizes consistent (both programs import it at 3.86 by 2.57 inches, its physical size at 300 ppi). If you divide 300/72, you get almost 4.2, which is close to the same scale factor that you get if you divide 1160 by 278. But what really shows this is happening is if you create another 1160 x 772 Photoshop document, but this time set the resolution to 300 ppi instead of 72 ppi. This time, when you place the downloaded image, it fills the space exactly and is reported as 1160 x 772, and I think it's because both are seen as 300 ppi.

So, you didn't lose any pixels, and the small size is due to ppi differences between the Photoshop document and the placed (embedded Smart Object) image.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse  wrote

It sounds like you're getting the thumbnail, not the original image (don't know how this works in Mac). Drag and drop is always an unpredictable way to do things. Open the original properly.

I doubt this has much to do with it. On the Mac, when you drag and drop from any application where the dragged object represents an entire file, it's pretty reliable. You can drag from the Finder, Bridge, Lightroom, or other similar file browsers, and drop in Photoshop, InDesign, Premiere, After Effects, and so on, and when you inspect how the receiving program reports the dropped file, it's a fully valid link reference to the document in the file system. In other words, on the Mac, drag-and-drop at the file level is 100% equal to using the File > Place or File > Import commands in Adobe applications. However, I have run into situations in Windows where using drag and drop this way didn't work as well.

[Mykill_G]

Thanks for taking the time to check into this.

So, you have any idea WHY this is happening? Even an educated guess?

I'm baffled. I don't remember ever having this issue in the past, either with the ppi discrepency between applications or the drag&drop resizing. Well, I've seen the drag&drop thing before, but it was always a case if some combination of the Preferences "Import as Smart Object" and "Resize Image During Place" being checked/unchecked, but as you have seen, this makes no difference on these set of images.

I'm glad to know that it's not just my machine and I'm not losing my mind.

[Test Screen Name · Accepted solution]

I might be able to answer the "what" if not the "why". The JPEG file format has evolved over the years. The currently fashionable place to store metadata is EXIF but that only originated in 1995. Before that there was the much simpler JFIF header, which also includes resolution info. Furthermore, Adobe apps used to and perhaps still do write an APP13 section which contains a lot of info from Photoshop which allows you to edit it with less loss of of information (for example APP13 can contain clipping path name). So, three different sources of information. In this file there is no EXIF section. There is a JFIF section with 72 ppi. There is an APP13 section; my guess is that it contains 300 dpi. So Adobe apps will typically see this file as 300 ppi. Other apps will typically see it as 72 ppi.

Obviously Adobe software won't write a file like this, but my guess is that it was processed by another app which modified or created the JFIF, perhaps stripped the EXIF (to save filespace), and preserved the original APP13.

[SuperMerlin]

Spot on.

But it does look as it Photoshop CS3...

*** Marker: APP0 (xFFE0) ***

  OFFSET: 0x00000002

  Length     = 16

  Identifier = [JFIF]

  version    = [1.1]

  density    = 72 x 72 DPI (dots per inch)

  thumbnail  = 0 x 0

*** Marker: APP13 (xFFED) ***

  OFFSET: 0x00000014

  Length          = 10502

  Identifier      = [Photoshop 3.0]

      8BIM: [0x03ED] Name="" Len=[0x0010] DefinedName="ResolutionInfo structure"

        Horizontal resolution                              = 300 pixels per inch

        Width unit                                         = inch

        Vertical resolution                                = 300 pixels per inch

        Height unit                                        = inch

[Conrad C]

I see. The JFIF data says the density is 72, while the AAP13 data for the same file says the resolution is 300 ppi. That would explain it.

One minor detail: The APP13 Identifier says Photoshop 3.0, which might not mean Photoshop CS3. It might really mean Photoshop version 3.0 (1994), since Photoshop CS3 is version 10 (2007).

[Stephen_A_Marsh]

Agreed, ExifTool results:

[System]       FileName          : Woodcut7.jpg
[JFIF]         ResolutionUnit    : inches
[JFIF]         XResolution       : 72
[JFIF]         YResolution       : 72
[Photoshop]    XResolution       : 300
[Photoshop]    DisplayedUnits    : inches
[Photoshop]    YResolution       : 300
[Photoshop]    DisplayedUnits    : inches

[Test Screen Name]

I believe it was introduced in 3.0 and is a format identifier not a software version. Still in use in CC 2017.  

[SuperMerlin]

Spot on again!

I looked a bit further down and found this.

	8BIM: [0x0421] Name="" Len=[0x005D] DefinedName="Version Info"
	Version	= 1
	hasRealMergedData	= 1
	Writer name	= "Adobe Photoshop"
	Reader name	= "Adobe Photoshop CC 2017"

[Mykill_G]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Test+Screen+Name 

SuperMerlin

Stephen_A_Marsh

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Conrad+C 

Thanks everyone for helping out. Where are you seeing this info displayed? I tried the Photoshop > File > File Info > Raw Data section, the app SetEXIFData, and the app PhotoME and could not find this data.

Does this doubling of resolution info account for the odd drag and drop behavior as well?

Anyone have any idea as to why the dragged file is coming into Photoshop @ 278 x 185?

Conrad C had one idea...

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Conrad+C  wrote

... If you divide 300/72, you get almost 4.2, which is close to the same scale factor that you get if you divide 1160 by 278. But what really shows this is happening is if you create another 1160 x 772 Photoshop document, but this time set the resolution to 300 ppi instead of 72 ppi. This time, when you place the downloaded image, it fills the space exactly and is reported as 1160 x 772, and I think it's because both are seen as 300 ppi.

[SuperMerlin]

I am using Windows 10 and an utility called JPEGsnoop

ImpulseAdventure - JPEGsnoop 1.8.0 - JPEG Decoder Utility

[Test Screen Name]

We are using different tools. I used a command line tool called jpegdump I think, my own experience, and other things, and looking in a binary editor. This does seem to explain the drag & drop behaviour too.

[Mykill_G]

Thanks again to everyone who helped out. I've marked Test Screen Name  as the correct answer, but I know there were a few people here who did some digging as well.

Though the source of the two issues have been identified, I'm still wondering why the drag&drop sizes the image to 278x185 specifically inside a 72 ppi document. Conrad C  was able to reproduce this exact situation following the same steps and gave a pretty good educated guess as to why, but just wondering if anyone here can/has figured it out.

Again, the post itself is marked as answered, but I'm just wanting to understand the WHY of the 278x185 dimensions if anyone understands it. Thanks again everyone